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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: JMarkBertrand: Diss Isn&#8217;t Discernment</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: danddog</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment/comment-page-1#comment-7519</link>
		<dc:creator>danddog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment#comment-7519</guid>
		<description>This entire post brings to light the basic fault of &quot;I just believe what the bible says, and you don&#039;t!&quot; way of thinking.  It&#039;s very annoying.  As Chesterton put it:

&quot;The catholic does not, in the conventional phrase, believe what the Bible says, for the simple reason that the Bible does not say anything. You cannot put a book in the witness-box and ask it what it really means. The Fundamentalist controversy itself destroys Fundamentalism. The Bible by itself cannot be a basis of agreement when it is a cause of disagreement; it cannot be the common ground of Christians when some take it allegorically and some literally. The Catholic refers it to something that can say something, to the living, consistent, and continuous mind of which I have spoken; the highest mind of man guided by God.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This entire post brings to light the basic fault of &#8220;I just believe what the bible says, and you don&#8217;t!&#8221; way of thinking.  It&#8217;s very annoying.  As Chesterton put it:</p>
<p>&#8220;The catholic does not, in the conventional phrase, believe what the Bible says, for the simple reason that the Bible does not say anything. You cannot put a book in the witness-box and ask it what it really means. The Fundamentalist controversy itself destroys Fundamentalism. The Bible by itself cannot be a basis of agreement when it is a cause of disagreement; it cannot be the common ground of Christians when some take it allegorically and some literally. The Catholic refers it to something that can say something, to the living, consistent, and continuous mind of which I have spoken; the highest mind of man guided by God.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: u2wesley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment/comment-page-1#comment-7517</link>
		<dc:creator>u2wesley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment#comment-7517</guid>
		<description>My childhood pastor used to always say, &quot;Young preachers are like wasps.  They&#039;re bigger when they&#039;re born than when they grow up.&quot;

There are many, many things I really like about Mark Driscoll.  As a former pastor of a mainline church (UMC) I concur with many things he said in his post - I&#039;ve been there, done that.  

Still, there is a certain spirit that comes across in his words that is less than productive and is more preaching to the choir than any genuine attempt at reforming denominations that long ago went adrift on the sea relativism.  It doesn&#039;t even sound like a final appeal for the remnant to leave Babylon.  Is it possible to speak the truth in love?  Where&#039;s the grace?

I&#039;m only 45, but whenever I read or listen to Driscoll, especially after reading his Confessions, I always keep in mind that he is still in his mid 30&#039;s and has only been a pastor for 10 years and a Christian for just a few years longer.  

While he has been incredibly used of God to bring thousands into the kingdom and he is saying and doing many, many things that the larger church desparately needs to hear and see, he still hasn&#039;t passed his 40th birthday.  Wisdom and discretion come with age.

Recently I started listening to the music of Keith Green again.  It doesn&#039;t seem possible that he&#039;s been gone for nearly 25 years or that he was only 28 years old when he died.  In many ways, Driscoll reminds me of Keith Green.  
Green could be abrasive, divisive, hard to get along with and often came across as judgmental and arrogant.  But when his fingers hit the keyboards the Holy Spirit moved and God only knows how many people are still being called to a deeper walk and a life of service in Jesus&#039; name through Keith&#039;s music.

I often wonder what Green would be like if he were still alive.  Today he would be 52 years old.  Would his incredible passion and zeal have turned to vinegar or fine wine?  We&#039;ll never know for sure, but I want to believe that he would have kept growing but still calling people to follow Jesus.

I also want to believe that Driscoll will continue to grow and learn and lead.  So, I can handle an occasional rant that goes over the top.  Scripture certainly records more than a few of those, and I think that there is a certain office for rattling our collective cage in order to keep the church on task.

I don&#039;t think Driscoll is destined for the fate of the wasp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My childhood pastor used to always say, &#8220;Young preachers are like wasps.  They&#8217;re bigger when they&#8217;re born than when they grow up.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are many, many things I really like about Mark Driscoll.  As a former pastor of a mainline church (UMC) I concur with many things he said in his post &#8211; I&#8217;ve been there, done that.  </p>
<p>Still, there is a certain spirit that comes across in his words that is less than productive and is more preaching to the choir than any genuine attempt at reforming denominations that long ago went adrift on the sea relativism.  It doesn&#8217;t even sound like a final appeal for the remnant to leave Babylon.  Is it possible to speak the truth in love?  Where&#8217;s the grace?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m only 45, but whenever I read or listen to Driscoll, especially after reading his Confessions, I always keep in mind that he is still in his mid 30&#8242;s and has only been a pastor for 10 years and a Christian for just a few years longer.  </p>
<p>While he has been incredibly used of God to bring thousands into the kingdom and he is saying and doing many, many things that the larger church desparately needs to hear and see, he still hasn&#8217;t passed his 40th birthday.  Wisdom and discretion come with age.</p>
<p>Recently I started listening to the music of Keith Green again.  It doesn&#8217;t seem possible that he&#8217;s been gone for nearly 25 years or that he was only 28 years old when he died.  In many ways, Driscoll reminds me of Keith Green.<br />
Green could be abrasive, divisive, hard to get along with and often came across as judgmental and arrogant.  But when his fingers hit the keyboards the Holy Spirit moved and God only knows how many people are still being called to a deeper walk and a life of service in Jesus&#8217; name through Keith&#8217;s music.</p>
<p>I often wonder what Green would be like if he were still alive.  Today he would be 52 years old.  Would his incredible passion and zeal have turned to vinegar or fine wine?  We&#8217;ll never know for sure, but I want to believe that he would have kept growing but still calling people to follow Jesus.</p>
<p>I also want to believe that Driscoll will continue to grow and learn and lead.  So, I can handle an occasional rant that goes over the top.  Scripture certainly records more than a few of those, and I think that there is a certain office for rattling our collective cage in order to keep the church on task.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think Driscoll is destined for the fate of the wasp.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Pendell</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment/comment-page-1#comment-7516</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Pendell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment#comment-7516</guid>
		<description>This reminds me of a conversation I had at a church retreat not very long ago ... 

Lay person:  Why  do we serve grape juice instead of wine in communion? Shouldn&#039;t it be wine? 

Other person: Well, yes. You&#039;re absolutely right. But be that as it may, this is a [deleted denomination] church and there is no way that&#039;s ever going to change. Yes, it&#039;s more accurate, but it&#039;s not a sword to die on.  

Person didn&#039;t want to let it go ... but honestly. There are battles that are worth fighting, and battles that are not.  

Getting a church to do anything isn&#039;t a matter of simply standing in the pulpit and saying &quot;thus sayeth the LORD&quot; and lo! it is so.  I will enjoy watching your young pastor&#039;s future career in his first church with great interest ... and, perhaps , some sinful gloating.  I hope I can resist the temptation. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This reminds me of a conversation I had at a church retreat not very long ago &#8230; </p>
<p>Lay person:  Why  do we serve grape juice instead of wine in communion? Shouldn&#8217;t it be wine? </p>
<p>Other person: Well, yes. You&#8217;re absolutely right. But be that as it may, this is a [deleted denomination] church and there is no way that&#8217;s ever going to change. Yes, it&#8217;s more accurate, but it&#8217;s not a sword to die on.  </p>
<p>Person didn&#8217;t want to let it go &#8230; but honestly. There are battles that are worth fighting, and battles that are not.  </p>
<p>Getting a church to do anything isn&#8217;t a matter of simply standing in the pulpit and saying &#8220;thus sayeth the LORD&#8221; and lo! it is so.  I will enjoy watching your young pastor&#8217;s future career in his first church with great interest &#8230; and, perhaps , some sinful gloating.  I hope I can resist the temptation. </p>
<p>Respectfully, </p>
<p>Brian P.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment/comment-page-1#comment-7514</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment#comment-7514</guid>
		<description>I thought that the Driscoll post failed to take account of the faithful people still in mainline churches. Almost every mainline has many conservatives in the pews that do not believe in leaving what has always been their church. I particularly thought Driscoll&#039;s article was unaware of people llike Mark Roberts and Tod Bolsinger in the PCUSA, or te Good News movement in the UMC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought that the Driscoll post failed to take account of the faithful people still in mainline churches. Almost every mainline has many conservatives in the pews that do not believe in leaving what has always been their church. I particularly thought Driscoll&#8217;s article was unaware of people llike Mark Roberts and Tod Bolsinger in the PCUSA, or te Good News movement in the UMC.</p>
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		<title>By: mshedden</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment/comment-page-1#comment-7513</link>
		<dc:creator>mshedden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-jmarkbertrand-diss-isnt-discernment#comment-7513</guid>
		<description>I read this post and the one you deleted and I agree whole heartly with you. And I think you can understand why certain people don&#039;t like Mark Discoll because of posts like this: 
http://www.theresurgence.com/md_blog_2006-08-21_now_the_mainline_churches_make_sense
I don&#039;t believe all of what he is saying is false, but why say it? Why cut people down you don&#039;t know (let alone send them to hell)? There is nothing positive about rhetoric like this, and it does build up or help anybody. (And according to the logic of the LA times article we should all be muslims, Amen for more demands on adherents... and who said his burden was easy and his yoke light) 
Maybe one day we will see that finished work of love, but with words like these today is not that day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read this post and the one you deleted and I agree whole heartly with you. And I think you can understand why certain people don&#8217;t like Mark Discoll because of posts like this:<br />
<a href="http://www.theresurgence.com/md_blog_2006-08-21_now_the_mainline_churches_make_sense" rel="nofollow">http://www.theresurgence.com/md_blog_2006-08-21_now_the_mainline_churches_make_sense</a><br />
I don&#8217;t believe all of what he is saying is false, but why say it? Why cut people down you don&#8217;t know (let alone send them to hell)? There is nothing positive about rhetoric like this, and it does build up or help anybody. (And according to the logic of the LA times article we should all be muslims, Amen for more demands on adherents&#8230; and who said his burden was easy and his yoke light)<br />
Maybe one day we will see that finished work of love, but with words like these today is not that day.</p>
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