<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Riffs: Conrad Hyers on Creationism, Genesis and Science</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:47:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chaplain Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-504714</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaplain Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-504714</guid>
		<description>Re: &quot;I would propose that not accepting the plainly straight-forward account given in Genesis 1 &amp; 2 is to make a mockery of the Bible, including its Author.&quot;

Except that I think you are missing something very simple, as are most who read this &quot;plainly straightforward account&quot; from a &quot;creationist&quot; perspective. One simple observation blows the creationist position out of the water and it doesn&#039;t depend on reading the text in any way other than its plain sense.

That observation is this:

Grammatically and syntactically, Genesis 1.1 stands alone. Genesis 1.2 starts a new paragraph.

Think about the implications of this. If Gen 1.1 is an independent sentence, with a new subject beginning in verse 2...

1. Gen 1.1 may describe the creation of the universe from nothing before the six days.
2. If so, then the &quot;six days&quot; are about something else, not the creation of the universe.
3. Or, Gen. 1.1 may be a &quot;title&quot; or summary statement for the rest of the chapter.
3. If so, then the &quot;creation&quot; account that begins in v. 2 starts with the &quot;earth&quot; (or land) already in existence. Nowhere do we have a description of God creating it, or water, or wind.

Either way, the &quot;six days&quot; are about something other than the &quot;creation&quot; of the universe.

That is a plain straightforward reading of the first two verses of Genesis 1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: &#8220;I would propose that not accepting the plainly straight-forward account given in Genesis 1 &amp; 2 is to make a mockery of the Bible, including its Author.&#8221;</p>
<p>Except that I think you are missing something very simple, as are most who read this &#8220;plainly straightforward account&#8221; from a &#8220;creationist&#8221; perspective. One simple observation blows the creationist position out of the water and it doesn&#8217;t depend on reading the text in any way other than its plain sense.</p>
<p>That observation is this:</p>
<p>Grammatically and syntactically, Genesis 1.1 stands alone. Genesis 1.2 starts a new paragraph.</p>
<p>Think about the implications of this. If Gen 1.1 is an independent sentence, with a new subject beginning in verse 2&#8230;</p>
<p>1. Gen 1.1 may describe the creation of the universe from nothing before the six days.<br />
2. If so, then the &#8220;six days&#8221; are about something else, not the creation of the universe.<br />
3. Or, Gen. 1.1 may be a &#8220;title&#8221; or summary statement for the rest of the chapter.<br />
3. If so, then the &#8220;creation&#8221; account that begins in v. 2 starts with the &#8220;earth&#8221; (or land) already in existence. Nowhere do we have a description of God creating it, or water, or wind.</p>
<p>Either way, the &#8220;six days&#8221; are about something other than the &#8220;creation&#8221; of the universe.</p>
<p>That is a plain straightforward reading of the first two verses of Genesis 1.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin N/GeoChristian</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-504705</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin N/GeoChristian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-504705</guid>
		<description>ajy:

As an old-earth creationist, I believe in a real creation by God, in a real Adam, in a real fall into sin, in real consequences for that sin, and in Jesus Christ as the only solution for that sin. Looking at the text of Genesis (as well as Romans 5 and 8 and other places) I do not see anywhere where it says that human sin caused animal death (this is something young-earth creationists read into the text). Like many prominent conservative Christian leaders over the years---such as Charles Spurgeon, B.B. Warfield, Francis Schaeffer, C.S. Lewis, and J. Gresham Machen---I don&#039;t think the text requires a young earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ajy:</p>
<p>As an old-earth creationist, I believe in a real creation by God, in a real Adam, in a real fall into sin, in real consequences for that sin, and in Jesus Christ as the only solution for that sin. Looking at the text of Genesis (as well as Romans 5 and 8 and other places) I do not see anywhere where it says that human sin caused animal death (this is something young-earth creationists read into the text). Like many prominent conservative Christian leaders over the years&#8212;such as Charles Spurgeon, B.B. Warfield, Francis Schaeffer, C.S. Lewis, and J. Gresham Machen&#8212;I don&#8217;t think the text requires a young earth.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ajy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-504505</link>
		<dc:creator>ajy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-504505</guid>
		<description>If God did not create the earth and man as its written then we have to accept that he used death, disease, violence, destruction, misery and suffering to create man.  If man did not fall and cause sin to enter the world, then sin was something our loving God created to what? 

If man did not fall and is not sin cursed there was no spiritual purpose for Jesus to die on the cross.  So that has no significance at all.

If you canâ€™t believe in what is written in Genesis there is very little you can believe when it comes to scripture, very little is relevant, or has any real meaning and most of all salvation wasnâ€™t necessary.

Why couldnâ€™t God create the earth in the manner in which itâ€™s written in the bible?  Why wouldnâ€™t he?  Is it necessary to believe he didnâ€™t?

If we canâ€™t believe that God created the earth instantly because itâ€™s â€œtoo supernaturalâ€ then why should we believe the divinity of Jesus or any of the miracles of the bible, because what makes those supernatural and not the creation story in Genesis. 

Can we only believe in supernatural events when there is no possible natural explanation?  If God appeared in front of you and made a chicken by pouring out sand on the ground is it impossible to believe that chickens come from fertilized eggs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If God did not create the earth and man as its written then we have to accept that he used death, disease, violence, destruction, misery and suffering to create man.  If man did not fall and cause sin to enter the world, then sin was something our loving God created to what? </p>
<p>If man did not fall and is not sin cursed there was no spiritual purpose for Jesus to die on the cross.  So that has no significance at all.</p>
<p>If you canâ€™t believe in what is written in Genesis there is very little you can believe when it comes to scripture, very little is relevant, or has any real meaning and most of all salvation wasnâ€™t necessary.</p>
<p>Why couldnâ€™t God create the earth in the manner in which itâ€™s written in the bible?  Why wouldnâ€™t he?  Is it necessary to believe he didnâ€™t?</p>
<p>If we canâ€™t believe that God created the earth instantly because itâ€™s â€œtoo supernaturalâ€ then why should we believe the divinity of Jesus or any of the miracles of the bible, because what makes those supernatural and not the creation story in Genesis. </p>
<p>Can we only believe in supernatural events when there is no possible natural explanation?  If God appeared in front of you and made a chicken by pouring out sand on the ground is it impossible to believe that chickens come from fertilized eggs?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-504446</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-504446</guid>
		<description>Thank you so much for this post. I belong to an LCMS church that has a strong creationist bent. As much as I love my church in other ways, I&#039;m distressed by this focus. The gospel doesn&#039;t need to be tied down by the heavy load of the creationist belief system. Thank you so much for recommending Hyers&#039; book - I just got it through interlibrary loan and I can&#039;t put it down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much for this post. I belong to an LCMS church that has a strong creationist bent. As much as I love my church in other ways, I&#8217;m distressed by this focus. The gospel doesn&#8217;t need to be tied down by the heavy load of the creationist belief system. Thank you so much for recommending Hyers&#8217; book &#8211; I just got it through interlibrary loan and I can&#8217;t put it down.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Janice</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-504165</link>
		<dc:creator>Janice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-504165</guid>
		<description>There are 2 different aspects to biological evolution.  One is the process which, because it is happening now, can be investigated using an appropriate, formalised, scientific method.  For instance, we can do DNA testing on Galapagos finches, measure their beak sizes, determine their food sources, measure the rainfall over time, observe mating behaviours and so on and so forth.  I will call this aspect &quot;Scientifically Testable Evolution&quot;.

The other aspect is the process of differentiation that is thought to have occurred since the origin of the first living organism.  Since every differentiation event occurred in the past none of them are now available for investigation using an appropriate, formalised, scientific method.  All we can do is investigate remnant artifacts, such as fossils, compare them with each other and make more or less informed guesses regarding what their relationships to each other might be.  I will call this aspect &quot;Historical Evolution&quot;.

The only real difference between &quot;Creation Science&quot; and &quot;Historical Evolution&quot; (theistic or otherwise) is in their respective presuppositions.  

The former assumes;
a) that God exists,
b) that in the words of Scripture God has revealed himself through what he has done, 
c) that God, having made us, understands how we think and reason, and 
d) that God, being both good and merciful, would not provide a story of our origins that requires us to have tertiary-level training in Biblical literary criticism and several different branches of philosophy in order to correctly understand the meaning of the account that he gave us of our origin even if it is in the form of poetic prose.  (&quot;Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.&quot; Mt 19:14 RSV)

The latter assumes;
a) that God either does not exist (or, if he does, would leave no trace of his working in his work) and therefore,
b) random, spontaneous events must be sufficient to explain how every living thing could have descended from a single, original, spontaneously formed, living thing (assuming it&#039;s possible for a living thing to be formed randomly and spontaneously).

Neither &quot;Creation Science&quot; nor &quot;Historical Evolution&quot; are scientific in the sense of being the kind of work that can, &quot;cure disease, solve hunger, improve national security, and otherwise ... improve the quality of human life.&quot; (AAAS statement: http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2008/media/0418aaas_statement.pdf)  

None of us would be bothered by the whole science vs. religion argument if we could be bothered with thinking hard about what we think science really is and why we think it&#039;s such a valuable enterprise.  I like having a computer, a digital TV, non-stick cookware, a mobile phone, antibiotics, MRI scans, movies on DVD, etc., etc., etc.  I can do without people pushing their naturalistic religion/philosophy of history on me and telling me I should believe it because, according to them, naturalism explains everything.

I don&#039;t want &quot;Creation Science&quot; in school science classrooms.  I want &quot;Historical Evolution&quot; out of them precisely because it has no more to do with science than did Lysenkoism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are 2 different aspects to biological evolution.  One is the process which, because it is happening now, can be investigated using an appropriate, formalised, scientific method.  For instance, we can do DNA testing on Galapagos finches, measure their beak sizes, determine their food sources, measure the rainfall over time, observe mating behaviours and so on and so forth.  I will call this aspect &#8220;Scientifically Testable Evolution&#8221;.</p>
<p>The other aspect is the process of differentiation that is thought to have occurred since the origin of the first living organism.  Since every differentiation event occurred in the past none of them are now available for investigation using an appropriate, formalised, scientific method.  All we can do is investigate remnant artifacts, such as fossils, compare them with each other and make more or less informed guesses regarding what their relationships to each other might be.  I will call this aspect &#8220;Historical Evolution&#8221;.</p>
<p>The only real difference between &#8220;Creation Science&#8221; and &#8220;Historical Evolution&#8221; (theistic or otherwise) is in their respective presuppositions.  </p>
<p>The former assumes;<br />
a) that God exists,<br />
b) that in the words of Scripture God has revealed himself through what he has done,<br />
c) that God, having made us, understands how we think and reason, and<br />
d) that God, being both good and merciful, would not provide a story of our origins that requires us to have tertiary-level training in Biblical literary criticism and several different branches of philosophy in order to correctly understand the meaning of the account that he gave us of our origin even if it is in the form of poetic prose.  (&#8220;Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.&#8221; Mt 19:14 RSV)</p>
<p>The latter assumes;<br />
a) that God either does not exist (or, if he does, would leave no trace of his working in his work) and therefore,<br />
b) random, spontaneous events must be sufficient to explain how every living thing could have descended from a single, original, spontaneously formed, living thing (assuming it&#8217;s possible for a living thing to be formed randomly and spontaneously).</p>
<p>Neither &#8220;Creation Science&#8221; nor &#8220;Historical Evolution&#8221; are scientific in the sense of being the kind of work that can, &#8220;cure disease, solve hunger, improve national security, and otherwise &#8230; improve the quality of human life.&#8221; (AAAS statement: <a href="http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2008/media/0418aaas_statement.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2008/media/0418aaas_statement.pdf</a>)  </p>
<p>None of us would be bothered by the whole science vs. religion argument if we could be bothered with thinking hard about what we think science really is and why we think it&#8217;s such a valuable enterprise.  I like having a computer, a digital TV, non-stick cookware, a mobile phone, antibiotics, MRI scans, movies on DVD, etc., etc., etc.  I can do without people pushing their naturalistic religion/philosophy of history on me and telling me I should believe it because, according to them, naturalism explains everything.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want &#8220;Creation Science&#8221; in school science classrooms.  I want &#8220;Historical Evolution&#8221; out of them precisely because it has no more to do with science than did Lysenkoism.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gregory DeVore</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-504044</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory DeVore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-504044</guid>
		<description>Did God tell you modern consciousness and the presuppostitions of the Scientific Meathod and the collective opinion of the Scientific Community was litterally and completely infallible?
As far as your Bible question yes and no. That is yes God tells us that the bible is infallible but since I don&#039;t know what you mean by literally I cannot answer that part of the question. For instance do you mean litterally as opposed to allegorically? Or by literal do you mean there are no figures of speach, metaphors or images in the bible? Since I find your question incomplete without further elaboration I cannot answer that part of the question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did God tell you modern consciousness and the presuppostitions of the Scientific Meathod and the collective opinion of the Scientific Community was litterally and completely infallible?<br />
As far as your Bible question yes and no. That is yes God tells us that the bible is infallible but since I don&#8217;t know what you mean by literally I cannot answer that part of the question. For instance do you mean litterally as opposed to allegorically? Or by literal do you mean there are no figures of speach, metaphors or images in the bible? Since I find your question incomplete without further elaboration I cannot answer that part of the question.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: arpritchett</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-503960</link>
		<dc:creator>arpritchett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-503960</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Chaplain Mike on this one.  Interpreting Genesis correctly is the key here, everything else is secondary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Chaplain Mike on this one.  Interpreting Genesis correctly is the key here, everything else is secondary.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-503648</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-503648</guid>
		<description>Fideism as in what in practice drifts into &quot;DON&#039;T THINK! JUST BE-LEEEEEEVE!&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fideism as in what in practice drifts into &#8220;DON&#8217;T THINK! JUST BE-LEEEEEEVE!&#8221;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chaplain Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-503414</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaplain Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-503414</guid>
		<description>It is crucial for believers to come to peace with the Biblical text first and foremost, and the best commentaries I have read are by:

1. John Sailhamer (Expositors Bible Commentary)
2. John Walton (IVP Application Commentary)
3. Bruce Waltke

In Waltke&#039;s OT Theology he continues to deal with the text in a helpful way also. Sailhamer&#039;s Genesis Unbound elaborates his views. I am looking forward to reading Walton&#039;s new book as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is crucial for believers to come to peace with the Biblical text first and foremost, and the best commentaries I have read are by:</p>
<p>1. John Sailhamer (Expositors Bible Commentary)<br />
2. John Walton (IVP Application Commentary)<br />
3. Bruce Waltke</p>
<p>In Waltke&#8217;s OT Theology he continues to deal with the text in a helpful way also. Sailhamer&#8217;s Genesis Unbound elaborates his views. I am looking forward to reading Walton&#8217;s new book as well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-conrad-hyers-on-creationism-genesis-and-science/comment-page-1#comment-503400</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3763#comment-503400</guid>
		<description>coming to peace with science by darrell falk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>coming to peace with science by darrell falk</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

