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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 11:23:09: Required Behavior Modification and the Gospel</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Church and liquidity: Does the gospel of the church reflect or inform culture in America? &#171; blog at the theotryst:a blog on Jesus Christ bursting forth in Word and sacrament and why we become what we receive</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-2#comment-521386</link>
		<dc:creator>Church and liquidity: Does the gospel of the church reflect or inform culture in America? &#171; blog at the theotryst:a blog on Jesus Christ bursting forth in Word and sacrament and why we become what we receive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 03:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] from church.  Learn as much as you can about law/gospel distinction such as found here and here  and here to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from church.  Learn as much as you can about law/gospel distinction such as found here and here  and here to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520233</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520233</guid>
		<description>have you been baptized tim? that is not hearsay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>have you been baptized tim? that is not hearsay.</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520232</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520232</guid>
		<description>noooooooo1 not &#039;advice&#039;.  .  when you hear &quot;the law&quot;, mentally substitute the phrase &quot;will of God &quot; and see what happens.  and then think of the &quot;will of God in christ&quot;  which perfectly connects the two in the very incarnate body and life of Jesus.

pagans can and DO keep the SAME will of god as christians are supposed to . they often do it better. this is worked by the holy spirit in them by the same law that christians are supposed to use to dicipline , make themselves into living sacrifices, run the face, folloiw Jesus as example, and even my favorite LAW saying &quot; you SHOULD do good works purely out of gratitude for what Jesus did for you.&quot; I don&#039;t do that.  LAW.  of course double down with st James.  they are all doing law.  carrot and stick. fear and reward.  pagans can do all of it without faith using free will and elbow grease.  trying harder. being purpose driven.

only the holy spirit, through the preaching of the gospel , creates faith in both pagans and christians, and only this preaching can increase in any way sanctification IF what is meant by sanctification is our new mans will now being conforned to Gods will.  if it means outward righteousness, then NO faith is really necessary for that.  Gods will being done looks always the same. it looks exactly like gods will being done. whether pagan or christian as the actor.

there are not two wills of god. there is only one. and only seeing that will of God IN CHRIST makes any of it truly not be a very scary thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>noooooooo1 not &#8216;advice&#8217;.  .  when you hear &#8220;the law&#8221;, mentally substitute the phrase &#8220;will of God &#8221; and see what happens.  and then think of the &#8220;will of God in christ&#8221;  which perfectly connects the two in the very incarnate body and life of Jesus.</p>
<p>pagans can and DO keep the SAME will of god as christians are supposed to . they often do it better. this is worked by the holy spirit in them by the same law that christians are supposed to use to dicipline , make themselves into living sacrifices, run the face, folloiw Jesus as example, and even my favorite LAW saying &#8221; you SHOULD do good works purely out of gratitude for what Jesus did for you.&#8221; I don&#8217;t do that.  LAW.  of course double down with st James.  they are all doing law.  carrot and stick. fear and reward.  pagans can do all of it without faith using free will and elbow grease.  trying harder. being purpose driven.</p>
<p>only the holy spirit, through the preaching of the gospel , creates faith in both pagans and christians, and only this preaching can increase in any way sanctification IF what is meant by sanctification is our new mans will now being conforned to Gods will.  if it means outward righteousness, then NO faith is really necessary for that.  Gods will being done looks always the same. it looks exactly like gods will being done. whether pagan or christian as the actor.</p>
<p>there are not two wills of god. there is only one. and only seeing that will of God IN CHRIST makes any of it truly not be a very scary thing.</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520231</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520231</guid>
		<description>look for where this is all about Jesus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>look for where this is all about Jesus.</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520230</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520230</guid>
		<description>&quot;.C. Ryle wrote: “(e) Both [justification and sactification] are alike necessary to salvation. No one ever reached heaven without a renewed heart as well as forgiveness, without the Spirit’s grace as well as the blood of Christ&quot;

truth . all of it.  where he goes wrong is in what follows.  why?  justification , faith and sanctification are all gifts of God.  true that faith and sanctification are both something that happens IN us and does not save, and justification happens fully OUTSIDE of us and is ALL that can save.

but if these are ALL gifts and not something we can initiate or create but must be created, automatically, without effort, by the holy spirit and hearing the gospel, then where then is the hornets nest other than that JC ryle, in error, things sanctification is something we can improve with effort (ie LAW!).

simple fact:  ANY message that tells anyone how they should act, pagan OR chistian is LAW LAW LAW.  so if we want to callt the result of doing the law &#039;sactification&#039; then lets be clear that is what we are doing. in  THAT case , pagans can be just as &#039;sanctified&#039; as christians can be..  OUTWARDLY this is completely true!

The ONLY difference between christian and pagan is faith in Jesus Christ . period. and this is NOTa visible difference. Period. I would suggest that paul talks about sanctification as our inner new man&#039;s will , insofar as we are regenerated, becomes conforned to Gods will.  since we STILL have the old adam clinging to us this does not mean that we do not ALSO have the will power of the old adam fighting against our new will. 

jc ryle makes some terrible wrong turns. you are corect.

ANY message that talks about how a christian OR pagan SHOULD act is law.  this INCLUDES paul telling us to run the race, submitt our wills, discipline our bodies and selves, make ourselves living sacrafice.  law law law.  pagans CAN do ALL of this.  they cannot have faith in christ. only the holy spirit through the gospel can do this.  free will aka will power or decision cannot do this because it is the bondservant of sin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;.C. Ryle wrote: “(e) Both [justification and sactification] are alike necessary to salvation. No one ever reached heaven without a renewed heart as well as forgiveness, without the Spirit’s grace as well as the blood of Christ&#8221;</p>
<p>truth . all of it.  where he goes wrong is in what follows.  why?  justification , faith and sanctification are all gifts of God.  true that faith and sanctification are both something that happens IN us and does not save, and justification happens fully OUTSIDE of us and is ALL that can save.</p>
<p>but if these are ALL gifts and not something we can initiate or create but must be created, automatically, without effort, by the holy spirit and hearing the gospel, then where then is the hornets nest other than that JC ryle, in error, things sanctification is something we can improve with effort (ie LAW!).</p>
<p>simple fact:  ANY message that tells anyone how they should act, pagan OR chistian is LAW LAW LAW.  so if we want to callt the result of doing the law &#8217;sactification&#8217; then lets be clear that is what we are doing. in  THAT case , pagans can be just as &#8217;sanctified&#8217; as christians can be..  OUTWARDLY this is completely true!</p>
<p>The ONLY difference between christian and pagan is faith in Jesus Christ . period. and this is NOTa visible difference. Period. I would suggest that paul talks about sanctification as our inner new man&#8217;s will , insofar as we are regenerated, becomes conforned to Gods will.  since we STILL have the old adam clinging to us this does not mean that we do not ALSO have the will power of the old adam fighting against our new will. </p>
<p>jc ryle makes some terrible wrong turns. you are corect.</p>
<p>ANY message that talks about how a christian OR pagan SHOULD act is law.  this INCLUDES paul telling us to run the race, submitt our wills, discipline our bodies and selves, make ourselves living sacrafice.  law law law.  pagans CAN do ALL of this.  they cannot have faith in christ. only the holy spirit through the gospel can do this.  free will aka will power or decision cannot do this because it is the bondservant of sin.</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520228</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520228</guid>
		<description>i think my previous posts in response to yours directly answer this question tim w.

pagans and christians do the SAME will of God .  christians according to their old adam and pagans, have righteousness wrung out of them by the sticks AND carrots (&quot;blessed&quot;) of the law.  christians also, because they have faith/sanctification, now also do the SAME righteousness, but now, insofar as they are regenerated, they do this automatically, freely, out of a will now conformed to Gods will in exactly the same way Jesus, whos will was also conformed to Gods will did righteousness.  and note that what Jesus did appeared unremarkable to those around him didnt it?  that simple fact SHOULD really twist your mind a bit. It does mine!  it overthrows all I think I know about what righteousness has to look like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think my previous posts in response to yours directly answer this question tim w.</p>
<p>pagans and christians do the SAME will of God .  christians according to their old adam and pagans, have righteousness wrung out of them by the sticks AND carrots (&#8220;blessed&#8221;) of the law.  christians also, because they have faith/sanctification, now also do the SAME righteousness, but now, insofar as they are regenerated, they do this automatically, freely, out of a will now conformed to Gods will in exactly the same way Jesus, whos will was also conformed to Gods will did righteousness.  and note that what Jesus did appeared unremarkable to those around him didnt it?  that simple fact SHOULD really twist your mind a bit. It does mine!  it overthrows all I think I know about what righteousness has to look like.</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520227</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520227</guid>
		<description>excellent dear friend. back at ya!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent dear friend. back at ya!</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520226</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520226</guid>
		<description>no. it would be wrong to separate justrification and sanctification, they must remain together since one flows from the other. faith and sanctification both flow from justificaion in the same way.

but it is very good to distinguish the two.

justification is gods will done outside of us and for is in christ.
sanctiication is our wills  conformed to Gods wil\ inside of us by faith from hearing we are justified.

your behavior SHOULD be indistiguishable from that of a RIGHTEOUS unbeliever. the SAME will of God is required of both you and him and he can do all of that as good or better than you.  Only the holy spirit can work faith in either of you. and this only through the hearing that you are justified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>no. it would be wrong to separate justrification and sanctification, they must remain together since one flows from the other. faith and sanctification both flow from justificaion in the same way.</p>
<p>but it is very good to distinguish the two.</p>
<p>justification is gods will done outside of us and for is in christ.<br />
sanctiication is our wills  conformed to Gods wil\ inside of us by faith from hearing we are justified.</p>
<p>your behavior SHOULD be indistiguishable from that of a RIGHTEOUS unbeliever. the SAME will of God is required of both you and him and he can do all of that as good or better than you.  Only the holy spirit can work faith in either of you. and this only through the hearing that you are justified.</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520225</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520225</guid>
		<description>amen. 

 sanctification and the &#039;fruit of sanctification.&quot;  

 the new behavior happens automatically, without spiritual effort or spiritual pushups exactly like our Lord did good behavior.  we don&#039;t become MORE like Jesus. we become just like him here.

unfortunately our old adam still clings to us, so we also do and will to do what our new nature wills against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>amen. </p>
<p> sanctification and the &#8216;fruit of sanctification.&#8221;  </p>
<p> the new behavior happens automatically, without spiritual effort or spiritual pushups exactly like our Lord did good behavior.  we don&#8217;t become MORE like Jesus. we become just like him here.</p>
<p>unfortunately our old adam still clings to us, so we also do and will to do what our new nature wills against.</p>
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		<title>By: fws</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-112309-required-behavior-modification-and-the-gospel/comment-page-1#comment-520224</link>
		<dc:creator>fws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5113#comment-520224</guid>
		<description>pagans are FULLY capable of doing ALL the outward righteousness that ALL christians AND pagans are required to do  using reason, will power, free will etc etc.  you are so right. they often do it much better.

the ONLY think they cannot with free will aka will power, because it is in bondage to sin and an enemy of God, is faith. inwardly keep the first table of the law. have a changed heart.

whatever christians DO, ether by using the law to force the old adam to behave right, or automatically from sanctication and faith from a new nature conformed to Gods will insofar as he/she is regenerated  is the same OUTWARD will of God being done by righteous pagans

when paul or christians talk about discipline, mortification of flesh, be like jesus as example, reach for the crown, run the race, etc. this is NOT sanctificaion. this is us, now in cooperation with the  the holy spirit , using the LAW to kill our flesh and force it into submission.

sanctification and its fruit happen and are produced in exactly the SAME way faith is produced in christians. and it is complete and sufficient in the same sense and for the same reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pagans are FULLY capable of doing ALL the outward righteousness that ALL christians AND pagans are required to do  using reason, will power, free will etc etc.  you are so right. they often do it much better.</p>
<p>the ONLY think they cannot with free will aka will power, because it is in bondage to sin and an enemy of God, is faith. inwardly keep the first table of the law. have a changed heart.</p>
<p>whatever christians DO, ether by using the law to force the old adam to behave right, or automatically from sanctication and faith from a new nature conformed to Gods will insofar as he/she is regenerated  is the same OUTWARD will of God being done by righteous pagans</p>
<p>when paul or christians talk about discipline, mortification of flesh, be like jesus as example, reach for the crown, run the race, etc. this is NOT sanctificaion. this is us, now in cooperation with the  the holy spirit , using the LAW to kill our flesh and force it into submission.</p>
<p>sanctification and its fruit happen and are produced in exactly the SAME way faith is produced in christians. and it is complete and sufficient in the same sense and for the same reasons.</p>
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