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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 11:14:09: Patrol Magazine and Evangelicals Who Won&#8217;t &#8220;Get Over It&#8221;</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-520326</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-520326</guid>
		<description>Hi Justin,

These are very good questions. I don&#039;t claim to have all the answers, but I&#039;ll try to clarfy some.
- God is love and like any loving Father He wants to have a pure relationship with His chilcren. We act as though He&#039;s our excecutioner, because of fear as well as sin. Sin separates us from God, fear drives us away, and Satan banks on that big time. Because he hates us, he thwarts God&#039;s truth and God&#039;s image. As a result we become more fearful and find it more difficult to come into His presence. 

- Again the real issue here is sin. Sin can not exist in the presense of a perfectly Holy and Pure God. Adam was not created to die, but because he disobeyed God, he was driven from God&#039;s presence, thus separated. Any separation from the presence of the Holy God equals death. 

- Believe it or not, the vast majority of the humanity will end up in Heaven. God&#039;s promise to Abraham was that &quot;I will make your descendents GREATER than the stars in heaven and the sand of the sea&quot;. This is(will be) accomplished by the finished and perfect work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. God&#039;s desire is for all men to be saved, not a select few. Heaven is  for ALL who have come to believe on Christ. They outnumber the number of stars and the sand of the sea.

- There is only one creed I know to be the absolute truth...Christ and Him Crucified! Everything else, is man-made.

- You are right, the world should know the disciples of Jesus by their love for one another (and for others), rather than anything else. Any division is man-made

- Is it a sin to doubt God? No, not at all, but it is sin to ultimately reject Him. God wants you and me to go to Him even when in doubt, after all, He is God, knows all things, and loves us regardless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Justin,</p>
<p>These are very good questions. I don&#8217;t claim to have all the answers, but I&#8217;ll try to clarfy some.<br />
- God is love and like any loving Father He wants to have a pure relationship with His chilcren. We act as though He&#8217;s our excecutioner, because of fear as well as sin. Sin separates us from God, fear drives us away, and Satan banks on that big time. Because he hates us, he thwarts God&#8217;s truth and God&#8217;s image. As a result we become more fearful and find it more difficult to come into His presence. </p>
<p>- Again the real issue here is sin. Sin can not exist in the presense of a perfectly Holy and Pure God. Adam was not created to die, but because he disobeyed God, he was driven from God&#8217;s presence, thus separated. Any separation from the presence of the Holy God equals death. </p>
<p>- Believe it or not, the vast majority of the humanity will end up in Heaven. God&#8217;s promise to Abraham was that &#8220;I will make your descendents GREATER than the stars in heaven and the sand of the sea&#8221;. This is(will be) accomplished by the finished and perfect work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. God&#8217;s desire is for all men to be saved, not a select few. Heaven is  for ALL who have come to believe on Christ. They outnumber the number of stars and the sand of the sea.</p>
<p>- There is only one creed I know to be the absolute truth&#8230;Christ and Him Crucified! Everything else, is man-made.</p>
<p>- You are right, the world should know the disciples of Jesus by their love for one another (and for others), rather than anything else. Any division is man-made</p>
<p>- Is it a sin to doubt God? No, not at all, but it is sin to ultimately reject Him. God wants you and me to go to Him even when in doubt, after all, He is God, knows all things, and loves us regardless.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519967</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519967</guid>
		<description>You can keep your &quot;reasoning fueled on Red Bull&quot;; I&#039;m running off with the Last Unicorn...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can keep your &#8220;reasoning fueled on Red Bull&#8221;; I&#8217;m running off with the Last Unicorn&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519965</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519965</guid>
		<description>K.W, the &quot;idealized-past belief&quot; is one of the three elements of a Grievance Culture -- a culture whose only reason for existing is Revenge on the Other.  The three elements are:

1)  The Idealized Perfect Past (when WE were the ones on top).
2)  Changes that turned the Idealized Past into the Sucky Present (when THEY came and took it away from us).
3)  PAYBACK TIME!

I&#039;ve seen this &quot;group mythology&quot; pattern in the Ku Klux Klan, the original Nazis, the original Communists, the Afrocentrists, the Raza Boys, and the Islamic Jihadists and Palestinians.  And I see the same pattern developing in American Culture War Christianity, especially as things change farther and farther from their Idealized Perfect Past and they become more and more marginalized, more and more desperate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>K.W, the &#8220;idealized-past belief&#8221; is one of the three elements of a Grievance Culture &#8212; a culture whose only reason for existing is Revenge on the Other.  The three elements are:</p>
<p>1)  The Idealized Perfect Past (when WE were the ones on top).<br />
2)  Changes that turned the Idealized Past into the Sucky Present (when THEY came and took it away from us).<br />
3)  PAYBACK TIME!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen this &#8220;group mythology&#8221; pattern in the Ku Klux Klan, the original Nazis, the original Communists, the Afrocentrists, the Raza Boys, and the Islamic Jihadists and Palestinians.  And I see the same pattern developing in American Culture War Christianity, especially as things change farther and farther from their Idealized Perfect Past and they become more and more marginalized, more and more desperate.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519961</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519961</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Then thereâ€™s the gimmicks to keep it running, then the eventual over-the-top â€œshark jump,â€ and finally, the cancellationâ€”people get bored and watch something else.&lt;/i&gt;

Followed by the fanfics hanging on for years, then around 20-30 years later the Retconned Remake (&quot;Reimagined Revival&quot;) for Nostalgia purposes (i.e. to make money off the aging fanboys).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Then thereâ€™s the gimmicks to keep it running, then the eventual over-the-top â€œshark jump,â€ and finally, the cancellationâ€”people get bored and watch something else.</i></p>
<p>Followed by the fanfics hanging on for years, then around 20-30 years later the Retconned Remake (&#8220;Reimagined Revival&#8221;) for Nostalgia purposes (i.e. to make money off the aging fanboys).</p>
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		<title>By: KYReserve</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519677</link>
		<dc:creator>KYReserve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519677</guid>
		<description>Danielle,

Jacob&#039;s remarks are convicting. If I was hurtful, sorry. I can be sharp with my remarks at times. My excuse is limited time so I hammer out the thoughts in the few minutes I get. Not able to access the site very often over here. So, if you read this, sorry if my reply was hurtful.

&quot;Christianity might end&quot; - not possible, if it is true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danielle,</p>
<p>Jacob&#8217;s remarks are convicting. If I was hurtful, sorry. I can be sharp with my remarks at times. My excuse is limited time so I hammer out the thoughts in the few minutes I get. Not able to access the site very often over here. So, if you read this, sorry if my reply was hurtful.</p>
<p>&#8220;Christianity might end&#8221; &#8211; not possible, if it is true.</p>
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		<title>By: A Few Questions For Evangelicalism â€” Ben Sternke</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519580</link>
		<dc:creator>A Few Questions For Evangelicalism â€” Ben Sternke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519580</guid>
		<description>[...] (aka Michael Spencer) re-posted Patrol Magazine&#8217;s excellent &#8220;Get Over It&#8221; article a few days ago. (By the way, I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (aka Michael Spencer) re-posted Patrol Magazine&#8217;s excellent &#8220;Get Over It&#8221; article a few days ago. (By the way, I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lue-Yee Tsang</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519543</link>
		<dc:creator>Lue-Yee Tsang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519543</guid>
		<description>I do want to affirm this sentiment and express my qualified agreement with it. Qualified, I say, because there are real matters in the Church demanding that boundaries be defined, as far as I can tell. The one that I can name off the top of me head is the prohibition on suing Christians. Well, whatâ€™s a Christian? If thereâ€™s nothing clear, weâ€™re left to our own devices, which will almost invariably err on the side of suing the other person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do want to affirm this sentiment and express my qualified agreement with it. Qualified, I say, because there are real matters in the Church demanding that boundaries be defined, as far as I can tell. The one that I can name off the top of me head is the prohibition on suing Christians. Well, whatâ€™s a Christian? If thereâ€™s nothing clear, weâ€™re left to our own devices, which will almost invariably err on the side of suing the other person.</p>
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		<title>By: greg r</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519378</link>
		<dc:creator>greg r</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519378</guid>
		<description>Love point #6):  some trust in chariots......some in horses......some in reasoning fueled on Red-Bull and loud music......  ironic that we howl at Voltaire  and Russell for not being aware of their  rationalistic limits.   Nice list. 

Greg R</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love point #6):  some trust in chariots&#8230;&#8230;some in horses&#8230;&#8230;some in reasoning fueled on Red-Bull and loud music&#8230;&#8230;  ironic that we howl at Voltaire  and Russell for not being aware of their  rationalistic limits.   Nice list. </p>
<p>Greg R</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519371</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519371</guid>
		<description>Interesting thread. 

Can&#039;t we all just follow Jesus?  It probably depends on which Jesus we want to follow.  The myriads of arguments, theologies, scripture cites as the basis for a position, history, and the local yellow pages tell us about people who want to follow Jesus.  They decide how Jesus is to be followed, which leads back to the arguments, theologies, scripture cites, history and the yellow pages once again.

Peter asked Jesus about John&#039;s fate and Jesus said to Peter, &quot;what is that to you?  You follow Me.&quot;  It is recorded outside of scripture that Peter was leaving Rome to avoid being condemned to death when he ran into Jesus again.  Jesus asked Peter why he was leaving.  Peter understood then what his fate was and went back to Rome.  It is recorded, outside of scripture, that Peter was crucified upside down at his own request.  He did not deem himself worthy to be crucified upright like his Master.

Peter knew Who was in charge.  Obedience is a difficult concept but Peter had bought in..  

I watched a small Baptist congregation split.  No theology was involved as everyone there believed the same things.  It was a personality struggle which split that congregation.  Half the congregation knew who was in charge, and it was them.  Too bad.  The pastor was a good man and I write objectively.  I knew him, I was not part of that congregation, had no axe to grind, nor was or am I a Baptist.

I remember learning that every split is a &quot;return to the early church&quot; by people who haven&#039;t a clue about the early church.  They want to be primitive (and the primitive Baptists even grabbed the word as an adjective) but lacked the means to travel back through time to Thessalonica or Rome or Jerusalem.  So they settled primitive by a vote.

Revivals are needed, but in what manner?  St Francis of Assisi loved the Lord and the church and brought about a revival that did not split the church but rekindled hearts and minds.  The Wesley&#039;s sparked a revival and Methodism split with Anglicanism.  

Jesus in John&#039;s gospel prays for unity.  That they may be one.  It appears that the &quot;one&quot; part is working real well.  It is the unity part that appears to be in great trouble and is a scandal to those outside the church (and should be a scandal to those inside the church as well).

The early church found problems, such as the Judaizers and the push for knowing Moses and requiring  circumcision before being allowed to know Jesus.  The apostles were of one mind (see Acts and the Jerusalem council) and no one was required to know Moses and submit to circumcision based on the revelation given to Peter before he got to Cornelius and that household.  

Does anyone remember what happened to the Judaizers?  I have done a lot of reading and I don&#039;t have a clue.  They were around for a while but then history swallows them and they disappear.

Eve took the apple and bit it and then gave it to her husband.

Pandora opened the box.

Luther nailed his theses on the church door.  What if he had appeared in Rome?  What if he had defended his position to those able to bring about correction?  What if he had been willing to be corrected in any area where his understanding was deficient?  What if Luther had been like Peter or St Francis of Assisi?

Original sin had an effect on the will, and on the faculties of the mind.  TULIP anyone?  (Not me.  Grace is intended to perfect nature.  Wrapping manure in snow finds the snow getting crappy.)

One cannot go backwards and undo what has occurred, but one might go forward and end up in the right place.

There is the short view and the long view.  The comments I have been reading are about the short view.  Maybe the long view, which recognizes grace in the face of human weakness and hope if one can merely step outside of one&#039;s self and one&#039;s self-importance, would be a better fit.

We all want Jesus.  Peter was not looking forward to martyrdom but he knew Who was really in charge if this endeavor is to succeed, so Peter submitted himself by an act of obedience.   Peter&#039;s state of life was to be an apostle and we all recognize him as exactly that.  Peter recognized Who he was an apostle to, and responded appropriately.

It is not my state of life to lead in that manner.  It is not my state of life to presume to be able to answer the thorny questions that occur.  It is my state of life to be obedient to the One Who said &quot;I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.&quot; 

I am not excused from using my mind.  It was given to me for a reason, so my initial response which took about four years, was to determine Who He is and where He wanted me, and to trust that He would bring that to fruition.  So long as I was obedient, I would be directed.  If I decided against obedience, then I would be rebellious.  I could join Eve, Pandora and Luther (whose failure was to stand up for what he had written in a place where it could be used to reform problem areas in the life of the church, and to accept correction on those ideas which were wrong).

We are being judged for obedience, not success.  The Holy Spirit did not enlighten every man with the ability to interpret and expound on scripture.  First there are apostles, then prophets, then teachers...  That was not my calling.  I was told to work out my salvation in fear and trembling because it is God&#039;s good purpose to will and to work in me, and in the process to find out that His grace is sufficient.  I am expected to make an effort, for the grace being given to me to find fruition at least in part through my own response to that grace.  If you like&quot; I had to take what He gave me and do something with it, and even then it was Him doing it through me.&quot;

I had to split a lot of hairs before I was able to bend the knee.  It has become much more flexible over time.  I no longer automatically assume that I can interpret what I am seeing.  It is a great benefit not to be the pope anymore and to wonder if perhaps I might not clearly understand what I am seeing.

My prayer for you is that you find this.  No end of difficulty but a place of rest for the weary laborer in the midst of everything, and a long view both forward and back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting thread. </p>
<p>Can&#8217;t we all just follow Jesus?  It probably depends on which Jesus we want to follow.  The myriads of arguments, theologies, scripture cites as the basis for a position, history, and the local yellow pages tell us about people who want to follow Jesus.  They decide how Jesus is to be followed, which leads back to the arguments, theologies, scripture cites, history and the yellow pages once again.</p>
<p>Peter asked Jesus about John&#8217;s fate and Jesus said to Peter, &#8220;what is that to you?  You follow Me.&#8221;  It is recorded outside of scripture that Peter was leaving Rome to avoid being condemned to death when he ran into Jesus again.  Jesus asked Peter why he was leaving.  Peter understood then what his fate was and went back to Rome.  It is recorded, outside of scripture, that Peter was crucified upside down at his own request.  He did not deem himself worthy to be crucified upright like his Master.</p>
<p>Peter knew Who was in charge.  Obedience is a difficult concept but Peter had bought in..  </p>
<p>I watched a small Baptist congregation split.  No theology was involved as everyone there believed the same things.  It was a personality struggle which split that congregation.  Half the congregation knew who was in charge, and it was them.  Too bad.  The pastor was a good man and I write objectively.  I knew him, I was not part of that congregation, had no axe to grind, nor was or am I a Baptist.</p>
<p>I remember learning that every split is a &#8220;return to the early church&#8221; by people who haven&#8217;t a clue about the early church.  They want to be primitive (and the primitive Baptists even grabbed the word as an adjective) but lacked the means to travel back through time to Thessalonica or Rome or Jerusalem.  So they settled primitive by a vote.</p>
<p>Revivals are needed, but in what manner?  St Francis of Assisi loved the Lord and the church and brought about a revival that did not split the church but rekindled hearts and minds.  The Wesley&#8217;s sparked a revival and Methodism split with Anglicanism.  </p>
<p>Jesus in John&#8217;s gospel prays for unity.  That they may be one.  It appears that the &#8220;one&#8221; part is working real well.  It is the unity part that appears to be in great trouble and is a scandal to those outside the church (and should be a scandal to those inside the church as well).</p>
<p>The early church found problems, such as the Judaizers and the push for knowing Moses and requiring  circumcision before being allowed to know Jesus.  The apostles were of one mind (see Acts and the Jerusalem council) and no one was required to know Moses and submit to circumcision based on the revelation given to Peter before he got to Cornelius and that household.  </p>
<p>Does anyone remember what happened to the Judaizers?  I have done a lot of reading and I don&#8217;t have a clue.  They were around for a while but then history swallows them and they disappear.</p>
<p>Eve took the apple and bit it and then gave it to her husband.</p>
<p>Pandora opened the box.</p>
<p>Luther nailed his theses on the church door.  What if he had appeared in Rome?  What if he had defended his position to those able to bring about correction?  What if he had been willing to be corrected in any area where his understanding was deficient?  What if Luther had been like Peter or St Francis of Assisi?</p>
<p>Original sin had an effect on the will, and on the faculties of the mind.  TULIP anyone?  (Not me.  Grace is intended to perfect nature.  Wrapping manure in snow finds the snow getting crappy.)</p>
<p>One cannot go backwards and undo what has occurred, but one might go forward and end up in the right place.</p>
<p>There is the short view and the long view.  The comments I have been reading are about the short view.  Maybe the long view, which recognizes grace in the face of human weakness and hope if one can merely step outside of one&#8217;s self and one&#8217;s self-importance, would be a better fit.</p>
<p>We all want Jesus.  Peter was not looking forward to martyrdom but he knew Who was really in charge if this endeavor is to succeed, so Peter submitted himself by an act of obedience.   Peter&#8217;s state of life was to be an apostle and we all recognize him as exactly that.  Peter recognized Who he was an apostle to, and responded appropriately.</p>
<p>It is not my state of life to lead in that manner.  It is not my state of life to presume to be able to answer the thorny questions that occur.  It is my state of life to be obedient to the One Who said &#8220;I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.&#8221; </p>
<p>I am not excused from using my mind.  It was given to me for a reason, so my initial response which took about four years, was to determine Who He is and where He wanted me, and to trust that He would bring that to fruition.  So long as I was obedient, I would be directed.  If I decided against obedience, then I would be rebellious.  I could join Eve, Pandora and Luther (whose failure was to stand up for what he had written in a place where it could be used to reform problem areas in the life of the church, and to accept correction on those ideas which were wrong).</p>
<p>We are being judged for obedience, not success.  The Holy Spirit did not enlighten every man with the ability to interpret and expound on scripture.  First there are apostles, then prophets, then teachers&#8230;  That was not my calling.  I was told to work out my salvation in fear and trembling because it is God&#8217;s good purpose to will and to work in me, and in the process to find out that His grace is sufficient.  I am expected to make an effort, for the grace being given to me to find fruition at least in part through my own response to that grace.  If you like&#8221; I had to take what He gave me and do something with it, and even then it was Him doing it through me.&#8221;</p>
<p>I had to split a lot of hairs before I was able to bend the knee.  It has become much more flexible over time.  I no longer automatically assume that I can interpret what I am seeing.  It is a great benefit not to be the pope anymore and to wonder if perhaps I might not clearly understand what I am seeing.</p>
<p>My prayer for you is that you find this.  No end of difficulty but a place of rest for the weary laborer in the midst of everything, and a long view both forward and back.</p>
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		<title>By: Prophets, Priests and Poets &#187; Blog Archive &#187; My Manifesto Can Beat Your Manifesto&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-111409-patrol-magazine-and-evangelicals-who-wont-get-over-it/comment-page-1#comment-519362</link>
		<dc:creator>Prophets, Priests and Poets &#187; Blog Archive &#187; My Manifesto Can Beat Your Manifesto&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5055#comment-519362</guid>
		<description>[...] HT: The Internet Monk    This entry was posted on Wednesday, November 18th, 2009 at 10:55 am and is filed under Christian Living, Church and Society, Theology. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] HT: The Internet Monk    This entry was posted on Wednesday, November 18th, 2009 at 10:55 am and is filed under Christian Living, Church and Society, Theology. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. [...]</p>
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