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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 1:08:07: Mark Galli: Liturgy Beyond the Rat Race of &#8220;Relevance&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Ron Cole</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-10774</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Cole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Michael, sorry I&#039;m jumping into this late. After almost 18 years in an Anglican church, I find myself as a worship director in a Pentecostal church ( does God not have a sense of humour ). At first, the change was some what refreshing...but with time I soon realized something was missing. It would be a tragedy, for the church to loose the language of liturgy. It is an incarnational languge of community, it is a subversive alternative language...as opposed to the corporate, political,and cultural language that surrounds us. It is a language of unity, and tradition...a communal story and langauge through the generations. Anyway, where I&#039;m at now...I&#039;m slowly introducing liturgy into Pentecostal worship...and they love it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Michael, sorry I&#8217;m jumping into this late. After almost 18 years in an Anglican church, I find myself as a worship director in a Pentecostal church ( does God not have a sense of humour ). At first, the change was some what refreshing&#8230;but with time I soon realized something was missing. It would be a tragedy, for the church to loose the language of liturgy. It is an incarnational languge of community, it is a subversive alternative language&#8230;as opposed to the corporate, political,and cultural language that surrounds us. It is a language of unity, and tradition&#8230;a communal story and langauge through the generations. Anyway, where I&#8217;m at now&#8230;I&#8217;m slowly introducing liturgy into Pentecostal worship&#8230;and they love it.</p>
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		<title>By: demo21</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-10041</link>
		<dc:creator>demo21</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In visiting a few contemporary &#039;mega-church&#039;-style churches, as well as at least one liturgical church which is trying to offer a contemporary service for those who prefer that, there has been a consistent issue regarding the core of what is being preached and/or what meaning is coming across through the service itself.

I know many Roman Catholics are drawn to the more contemporary types of services when they&#039;ve been damaged by the church in some way.  The unfortunate part, and this is the core that must be analyzed, is that the large majority of contemporary churches tend to have a &quot;me&quot;-focused theology rather than a Christo-centric one.  Ironically, this is the SAME core as in Roman Catholicism.

The lyrics of the praise songs, the sound of the composition, and often the &#039;message&#039; or sermon all tend to focus on me loving God, my choices and actions and dedications to God, rather than a Christ who came to wash MY feet and His dedication to HIM saving me from damnation.  I&#039;ve run into many an ex-evangelical who has eventually come to understand that they&#039;ve been getting fluff without real substance, and they need to find a place that takes the focus off of them.

In addition, I&#039;ve been to at least one church&#039;s contemporary service where I could hear a very Christo-centric sermon, but the rest of the service was a contemporary one.  Such a service has always come across to me as one that focuses back on me and me &#039;feeling&#039; God in my heart.  And I think that&#039;s a bad thing.  Imagine if Christ had chosen a minitry of glory or miracles, based on making me feel good or feel impressed.  But He knew that type of ministry can not last with us sheep and would not save.  In the same way, I don&#039;t believe a service which tries to make me &#039;feel&#039; the theology, rather than simply hear it and speak it, is one that will maintain my faith in the long term.

This is why what Mark Galli is writing is so important and so powerful.  Ultimately, a service focused on &quot;me&quot; and not on Christ is very dangerous to one&#039;s faith.  It can very easily be a stop-off on the road to unbelief, but most people aren&#039;t experienced or well-read enough to make the connections as to why something like that would happen.

Whether you like the sound of it or not, don&#039;t &#039;feel God enough in your heart&#039; as you do when there&#039;s an electric guitar and a set of drums, the liturgy ensures that you will be able to confess your sins, receive forgiveness, confess your faith and pray to the Father using words that were not written in the last hour-and as a matter of fact have been used by people for hundreds of years... for a reason.  I can also be assured of what I will hear if I visit a liturgical church and more than likely won&#039;t have to pick up a hymnal, except for hymns, because I already know what to do at what times and when and what to sing or chant or speak.  I have always found that very comforting.

But the best part is that a liturgical service has nothing to do with me.  A litugical service ensures I hear that what Jesus did was done FOR me, it&#039;s not ABOUT me or anything I do.  It&#039;s ABOUT Christ and everything He did for me.  And if I&#039;m not hearing that in ANY church, you won&#039;t find me there very long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In visiting a few contemporary &#8216;mega-church&#8217;-style churches, as well as at least one liturgical church which is trying to offer a contemporary service for those who prefer that, there has been a consistent issue regarding the core of what is being preached and/or what meaning is coming across through the service itself.</p>
<p>I know many Roman Catholics are drawn to the more contemporary types of services when they&#8217;ve been damaged by the church in some way.  The unfortunate part, and this is the core that must be analyzed, is that the large majority of contemporary churches tend to have a &#8220;me&#8221;-focused theology rather than a Christo-centric one.  Ironically, this is the SAME core as in Roman Catholicism.</p>
<p>The lyrics of the praise songs, the sound of the composition, and often the &#8216;message&#8217; or sermon all tend to focus on me loving God, my choices and actions and dedications to God, rather than a Christ who came to wash MY feet and His dedication to HIM saving me from damnation.  I&#8217;ve run into many an ex-evangelical who has eventually come to understand that they&#8217;ve been getting fluff without real substance, and they need to find a place that takes the focus off of them.</p>
<p>In addition, I&#8217;ve been to at least one church&#8217;s contemporary service where I could hear a very Christo-centric sermon, but the rest of the service was a contemporary one.  Such a service has always come across to me as one that focuses back on me and me &#8216;feeling&#8217; God in my heart.  And I think that&#8217;s a bad thing.  Imagine if Christ had chosen a minitry of glory or miracles, based on making me feel good or feel impressed.  But He knew that type of ministry can not last with us sheep and would not save.  In the same way, I don&#8217;t believe a service which tries to make me &#8216;feel&#8217; the theology, rather than simply hear it and speak it, is one that will maintain my faith in the long term.</p>
<p>This is why what Mark Galli is writing is so important and so powerful.  Ultimately, a service focused on &#8220;me&#8221; and not on Christ is very dangerous to one&#8217;s faith.  It can very easily be a stop-off on the road to unbelief, but most people aren&#8217;t experienced or well-read enough to make the connections as to why something like that would happen.</p>
<p>Whether you like the sound of it or not, don&#8217;t &#8216;feel God enough in your heart&#8217; as you do when there&#8217;s an electric guitar and a set of drums, the liturgy ensures that you will be able to confess your sins, receive forgiveness, confess your faith and pray to the Father using words that were not written in the last hour-and as a matter of fact have been used by people for hundreds of years&#8230; for a reason.  I can also be assured of what I will hear if I visit a liturgical church and more than likely won&#8217;t have to pick up a hymnal, except for hymns, because I already know what to do at what times and when and what to sing or chant or speak.  I have always found that very comforting.</p>
<p>But the best part is that a liturgical service has nothing to do with me.  A litugical service ensures I hear that what Jesus did was done FOR me, it&#8217;s not ABOUT me or anything I do.  It&#8217;s ABOUT Christ and everything He did for me.  And if I&#8217;m not hearing that in ANY church, you won&#8217;t find me there very long.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Riley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-10007</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Riley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I really loved what was said here and definitely appreciate the sentiment.  Often, in less heady language, people decry culture chasing and hope to lead Christians to being God chasers.  However, perhaps it is my ignorance, because I have rarely participated in services one might characterize as liturgical, but what is wrong with a contemporary service so long as its foundation and focus is the Scripture?  What truly points us to God is His Word.  If Christians are being led to live and believe the promises and commands of His Word...to let go of every idol in our lives, including the idols of self and cultural relevance, well, that would seem to be demonstrating that our greatest need is God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really loved what was said here and definitely appreciate the sentiment.  Often, in less heady language, people decry culture chasing and hope to lead Christians to being God chasers.  However, perhaps it is my ignorance, because I have rarely participated in services one might characterize as liturgical, but what is wrong with a contemporary service so long as its foundation and focus is the Scripture?  What truly points us to God is His Word.  If Christians are being led to live and believe the promises and commands of His Word&#8230;to let go of every idol in our lives, including the idols of self and cultural relevance, well, that would seem to be demonstrating that our greatest need is God.</p>
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		<title>By: CBrunette</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-10002</link>
		<dc:creator>CBrunette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance#comment-10002</guid>
		<description>One of the better examples I&#039;ve seen of liturgy meets evangelicalism is the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.coths.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Church of the Holy Spirit&lt;/a&gt; in Roanoke Virginia. They&#039;re a part of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theamia.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anglican Mission in America&lt;/a&gt;. While it may be too evangelical for some and not enough for others...its pretty darn good. This particular church has planted three congregations in the area over a 5 year period. The Mission is also rapidly expanding through adoption of theologically orphaned ECUSA congregations. You may see one coming to a town near you....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the better examples I&#8217;ve seen of liturgy meets evangelicalism is the <a href="http://www.coths.org" rel="nofollow">Church of the Holy Spirit</a> in Roanoke Virginia. They&#8217;re a part of the <a href="http://www.theamia.org" rel="nofollow">Anglican Mission in America</a>. While it may be too evangelical for some and not enough for others&#8230;its pretty darn good. This particular church has planted three congregations in the area over a 5 year period. The Mission is also rapidly expanding through adoption of theologically orphaned ECUSA congregations. You may see one coming to a town near you&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Maxentius</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-9989</link>
		<dc:creator>Maxentius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;It is not necessarily cause and effect&quot;

Absolutely. Many non-liturgical churches, after all, have gone liberal.

This being said, the Anglo-catholic movement has very quickly shown a tendency not to care about what some men taught as long as they used the proper liturgy and wore the &quot;correct&quot; apparel. 

But,to speak honaestly, I am not convinced of the doctrinal soundness of the Anglos anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is not necessarily cause and effect&#8221;</p>
<p>Absolutely. Many non-liturgical churches, after all, have gone liberal.</p>
<p>This being said, the Anglo-catholic movement has very quickly shown a tendency not to care about what some men taught as long as they used the proper liturgy and wore the &#8220;correct&#8221; apparel. </p>
<p>But,to speak honaestly, I am not convinced of the doctrinal soundness of the Anglos anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: BKC</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-9986</link>
		<dc:creator>BKC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 02:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance#comment-9986</guid>
		<description>&quot;Some will always point out that liturgical churches have often gone liberal, while non liturgical churches have a more orthodox view of the Bible. Thatâ€™s not cause and effect, however; thatâ€™s irony.&quot;

Keep writing this, Michael.  It is not necessarily cause and effect.  So many people point out things like this and then sit smugly as if they have discerned all the great problems facing different denominations.  The problem with the liturgical churches is not liturgy and the problem with the non-liturgical is not necessarily lack of it.  The problem with both of them is...us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Some will always point out that liturgical churches have often gone liberal, while non liturgical churches have a more orthodox view of the Bible. Thatâ€™s not cause and effect, however; thatâ€™s irony.&#8221;</p>
<p>Keep writing this, Michael.  It is not necessarily cause and effect.  So many people point out things like this and then sit smugly as if they have discerned all the great problems facing different denominations.  The problem with the liturgical churches is not liturgy and the problem with the non-liturgical is not necessarily lack of it.  The problem with both of them is&#8230;us.</p>
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		<title>By: K.W. Leslie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-9984</link>
		<dc:creator>K.W. Leslie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance#comment-9984</guid>
		<description>I grew up in very non-liturgical churches; sort of Mom&#039;s backlash to growing up Catholic. Her complaint was that when you&#039;re going through the liturgy, you&#039;re &quot;going through the motions&quot; and not &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; interfacing with God.

Of course, as a teenager, I quickly learned how to go through the motions of worship in spite of my church&#039;s non-liturgical nature. God was deliberately made the furthest thing from my mind. I discovered church was a really great place to sit and quietly plot about what I was going to do later that day, or week. (Eventually I snapped out of this behavior, thank God.)

When I finally did visit a liturgical church, I found the service profound and deeply spiritual. When I shared that experience with my mom, she wisecracked, &quot;Did you notice how [spiritually] dead the people were?&quot; Honestly, I didn&#039;t. I didn&#039;t feel they &lt;i&gt;were&lt;/i&gt; dead.

I think she was instead reading her personal attitudes of the time into the worship environment she was in. I see this all the time in people that used to go to liturgical churches... but I also see it in people who used to go to Pentecostal churches like mine. &lt;i&gt;They&lt;/i&gt; were spiritually dead, not the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up in very non-liturgical churches; sort of Mom&#8217;s backlash to growing up Catholic. Her complaint was that when you&#8217;re going through the liturgy, you&#8217;re &#8220;going through the motions&#8221; and not <i>really</i> interfacing with God.</p>
<p>Of course, as a teenager, I quickly learned how to go through the motions of worship in spite of my church&#8217;s non-liturgical nature. God was deliberately made the furthest thing from my mind. I discovered church was a really great place to sit and quietly plot about what I was going to do later that day, or week. (Eventually I snapped out of this behavior, thank God.)</p>
<p>When I finally did visit a liturgical church, I found the service profound and deeply spiritual. When I shared that experience with my mom, she wisecracked, &#8220;Did you notice how [spiritually] dead the people were?&#8221; Honestly, I didn&#8217;t. I didn&#8217;t feel they <i>were</i> dead.</p>
<p>I think she was instead reading her personal attitudes of the time into the worship environment she was in. I see this all the time in people that used to go to liturgical churches&#8230; but I also see it in people who used to go to Pentecostal churches like mine. <i>They</i> were spiritually dead, not the church.</p>
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		<title>By: jfred</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-9976</link>
		<dc:creator>jfred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I quit trying to find an evangelical/missional/ liturgical church in my city. I&#039;ve visited many Episcopal and Lutheran churches, both conservative and liberal. I love the beauty of the liturgy, but in over a year, I never heard one sermon that could compare to the kind of excellent preaching I hear regularly at my evangelical Presbyterian church.  Typically, what passed for the &quot;sermon&quot; was a 10-12 minute pep talk, or story, totally unrelated to either scripture passage which we had just heard. 

It was amazing how many members I spoke to at these churches who commented about the excellent preaching they got! I honestly don&#039;t think many of them have ever really heard consistently good preaching.  

Another problem I see with high liturgical churches (at least with the conservative ones) is that they seem to be so in love with the liturgy, they place little value on commuity outreach and mercy ministry in general.    

So for now, I&#039;m willing to listen to all the praise songs/sermon/more praise songs, which characterizes the evangelical &quot;worship&quot; of today.  
I hear the gospel every Sunday and the poor people in the neighborhood would be very sad if the church moved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I quit trying to find an evangelical/missional/ liturgical church in my city. I&#8217;ve visited many Episcopal and Lutheran churches, both conservative and liberal. I love the beauty of the liturgy, but in over a year, I never heard one sermon that could compare to the kind of excellent preaching I hear regularly at my evangelical Presbyterian church.  Typically, what passed for the &#8220;sermon&#8221; was a 10-12 minute pep talk, or story, totally unrelated to either scripture passage which we had just heard. </p>
<p>It was amazing how many members I spoke to at these churches who commented about the excellent preaching they got! I honestly don&#8217;t think many of them have ever really heard consistently good preaching.  </p>
<p>Another problem I see with high liturgical churches (at least with the conservative ones) is that they seem to be so in love with the liturgy, they place little value on commuity outreach and mercy ministry in general.    </p>
<p>So for now, I&#8217;m willing to listen to all the praise songs/sermon/more praise songs, which characterizes the evangelical &#8220;worship&#8221; of today.<br />
I hear the gospel every Sunday and the poor people in the neighborhood would be very sad if the church moved.</p>
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		<title>By: demo21</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-9968</link>
		<dc:creator>demo21</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have grown up in the Lutheran church (LCMS) and though I&#039;ve never regularly attended evangelical churches as Mark is describing, I&#039;ve certainly visited them periodically and gotten a taste of what they&#039;re serving.

This culture is in dire need of as many writers as possible, especially ex-evangelicals like Mark, to produce clean and succinct text like this in droves.  Great stuff.

I can&#039;t tell you how saddening it is to watch this culture take hold with so many (Lutheran) churches which have been liturgical for decades, converting one by one to a contemporary service.  Such a thing is an idol which does not save.

Even at its worst, the liturgy does a fantastic job of protecting me not only from the culture, but from sermons-gone-awry as well.  If I&#039;m not getting law and gospel in the sermon (or worse, law-gospel-law, or just law), I can count on getting the right stuff out of the liturgy.

I&#039;ve been making sure to praise pastors and churches over the last few years that stick the the traditional liturgical and confessional core.  Oh, that more would do this.  This is what people are finding they are thirsting for, and thank God for people like Mark for writing such great stuff highlighting the importance of fighting for the old and casting out the &#039;new&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have grown up in the Lutheran church (LCMS) and though I&#8217;ve never regularly attended evangelical churches as Mark is describing, I&#8217;ve certainly visited them periodically and gotten a taste of what they&#8217;re serving.</p>
<p>This culture is in dire need of as many writers as possible, especially ex-evangelicals like Mark, to produce clean and succinct text like this in droves.  Great stuff.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t tell you how saddening it is to watch this culture take hold with so many (Lutheran) churches which have been liturgical for decades, converting one by one to a contemporary service.  Such a thing is an idol which does not save.</p>
<p>Even at its worst, the liturgy does a fantastic job of protecting me not only from the culture, but from sermons-gone-awry as well.  If I&#8217;m not getting law and gospel in the sermon (or worse, law-gospel-law, or just law), I can count on getting the right stuff out of the liturgy.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been making sure to praise pastors and churches over the last few years that stick the the traditional liturgical and confessional core.  Oh, that more would do this.  This is what people are finding they are thirsting for, and thank God for people like Mark for writing such great stuff highlighting the importance of fighting for the old and casting out the &#8216;new&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: nakedpastor</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-10807-mark-galli-liturgy-beyond-the-rat-race-of-relevance/comment-page-1#comment-9967</link>
		<dc:creator>nakedpastor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i&#039;ve always believed that worship, though needing to be &quot;informed&quot; by tradition and scripture, must be uniquely indigenous. at its worst, liturgy has been exclusive and high-brow. at its worst, free or modern worship has been exclusive and silly. i don&#039;t think there&#039;s one litmus test to apply to all congregations. each one is unique and responsible for its own expression to God, but all in the broad context of grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ve always believed that worship, though needing to be &#8220;informed&#8221; by tradition and scripture, must be uniquely indigenous. at its worst, liturgy has been exclusive and high-brow. at its worst, free or modern worship has been exclusive and silly. i don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s one litmus test to apply to all congregations. each one is unique and responsible for its own expression to God, but all in the broad context of grace.</p>
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