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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 10:01:09:  Special Needs Members OR How I Was Right and Wrong About Baptizing An Autistic Boy</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-514297</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-514297</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the question, Wolf Paul.

I&#039;ve mentioned in another comment that I&#039;m currently serving in some small UMC congregations, but I am ordained in and have standing with the Disciples.  That and the fact that no one has answered in the last week has prompted me to reply.

Warning, though--Restoration churches are wildly independent from one another even within their respective branches, so all I can really do is reflect on my own practices and those of the DoC churches I&#039;ve served.  With that in mind, in my churches the procession of sweet children into the baptistry on Easter was not so much the goal as the opportunity.  Pastor&#039;s Class was designed to end around Holy Week, providing some additional rhetorical weight towards a decision--what better way to celebrate than to join the Savior in death, burial, and resurrection?  (And this was not necessarily a group thing!  My classes tended to have adults as well as junior high students, and there was always somebody taking the class a second or even a third time.  Peer pressure was never the issue--but PARENT pressure often was!)

In the churches I served, the custom was rather that if anyone made a profession of faith, the baptistry was ready next Sunday.  Even if this was in the middle of the class.  Even if the profession was made privately to me on Saturday night.  We brooked as little delay as possible, and my lay elders were clear that the possibility of tragedy was the reason.

It&#039;s a slightly different branch, so I&#039;m not quite sure where the CofC is at the moment on this theological and (they would shudder at me using the word, but it&#039;s still applicable) liturgical point.  But what should come across in your conversation is Brother Gatewood&#039;s deep concern for *you.*  That&#039;s the mark of pastoral urgency!  Okay, so it&#039;s true that he was using some rhetorical pathos on you to persuade you to act with immediacy--as I was with using Easter on my class.  But I have no doubt that his words rose out of his looking at you and seeing a child of God, for whom Christ died, and worrying that the opportunity to respond to that deep love might be missed.

I&#039;m not sure this answered your question.  But I hope it came close.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the question, Wolf Paul.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve mentioned in another comment that I&#8217;m currently serving in some small UMC congregations, but I am ordained in and have standing with the Disciples.  That and the fact that no one has answered in the last week has prompted me to reply.</p>
<p>Warning, though&#8211;Restoration churches are wildly independent from one another even within their respective branches, so all I can really do is reflect on my own practices and those of the DoC churches I&#8217;ve served.  With that in mind, in my churches the procession of sweet children into the baptistry on Easter was not so much the goal as the opportunity.  Pastor&#8217;s Class was designed to end around Holy Week, providing some additional rhetorical weight towards a decision&#8211;what better way to celebrate than to join the Savior in death, burial, and resurrection?  (And this was not necessarily a group thing!  My classes tended to have adults as well as junior high students, and there was always somebody taking the class a second or even a third time.  Peer pressure was never the issue&#8211;but PARENT pressure often was!)</p>
<p>In the churches I served, the custom was rather that if anyone made a profession of faith, the baptistry was ready next Sunday.  Even if this was in the middle of the class.  Even if the profession was made privately to me on Saturday night.  We brooked as little delay as possible, and my lay elders were clear that the possibility of tragedy was the reason.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a slightly different branch, so I&#8217;m not quite sure where the CofC is at the moment on this theological and (they would shudder at me using the word, but it&#8217;s still applicable) liturgical point.  But what should come across in your conversation is Brother Gatewood&#8217;s deep concern for *you.*  That&#8217;s the mark of pastoral urgency!  Okay, so it&#8217;s true that he was using some rhetorical pathos on you to persuade you to act with immediacy&#8211;as I was with using Easter on my class.  But I have no doubt that his words rose out of his looking at you and seeing a child of God, for whom Christ died, and worrying that the opportunity to respond to that deep love might be missed.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure this answered your question.  But I hope it came close.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunday Lynx &#171; Thinking Out Loud</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513670</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunday Lynx &#171; Thinking Out Loud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 00:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513670</guid>
		<description>[...] The blog Internet Monk has been smokin&#8217; hot lately with a number of topics to get your brain working along with one of the best comments sections anywhere in the Christian blogosphere.Â Â  Recently, iMonk told the story of a mother who wanted her autistic son baptised in a denomination that only baptizes on the basis of public confession of faith; something the young man wasn&#8217;t capable of doing.Â Â  Hmmm.Â Â  That&#8217;s a tough decision, as you&#8217;ll see when you click here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The blog Internet Monk has been smokin&#8217; hot lately with a number of topics to get your brain working along with one of the best comments sections anywhere in the Christian blogosphere.Â Â  Recently, iMonk told the story of a mother who wanted her autistic son baptised in a denomination that only baptizes on the basis of public confession of faith; something the young man wasn&#8217;t capable of doing.Â Â  Hmmm.Â Â  That&#8217;s a tough decision, as you&#8217;ll see when you click here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Casual Observer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513633</link>
		<dc:creator>Casual Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 19:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513633</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that much as Christians parents want children to be unambiguously identified with the family name from birth, there are -- even for those who do not see baptism as sacramental -- compelling reasons to establish an unambiguous identity with the name of Christ early on.  From there, many will grow in understanding their baptismal identity; some will opt out.  But in either case it remains a gift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that much as Christians parents want children to be unambiguously identified with the family name from birth, there are &#8212; even for those who do not see baptism as sacramental &#8212; compelling reasons to establish an unambiguous identity with the name of Christ early on.  From there, many will grow in understanding their baptismal identity; some will opt out.  But in either case it remains a gift.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513569</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 05:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513569</guid>
		<description>She cannot express herself in any verbal way and thus cannot make the public profession of faith (including the circumstances of her &quot;receiving Christ as her personal savior&quot;) required by this church.  To the best of my knowledge, her parents have never asked to have her baptized--I honestly don&#039;t think that this would even occur to them.  In the mind of this church, if you cannot understand what you are doing in baptism (note the focus there) because of age or incapacity you cannot be baptized.  

The question about people like her is interesting because it really goes to the heart of the matter:  is baptism about us and our human capacities?  (categories like &quot;understanding it&quot; &quot;making it meaningful&quot;) or is it about grace?  Of course you can tell that I&#039;m pushing for the latter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She cannot express herself in any verbal way and thus cannot make the public profession of faith (including the circumstances of her &#8220;receiving Christ as her personal savior&#8221;) required by this church.  To the best of my knowledge, her parents have never asked to have her baptized&#8211;I honestly don&#8217;t think that this would even occur to them.  In the mind of this church, if you cannot understand what you are doing in baptism (note the focus there) because of age or incapacity you cannot be baptized.  </p>
<p>The question about people like her is interesting because it really goes to the heart of the matter:  is baptism about us and our human capacities?  (categories like &#8220;understanding it&#8221; &#8220;making it meaningful&#8221;) or is it about grace?  Of course you can tell that I&#8217;m pushing for the latter.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513560</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 02:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513560</guid>
		<description>I am Baptist and my son has autism.  This past spring our pastor approached my wife &amp; I on whether we would like him to be baptized.  My was hesitant, as I was concerned as to whether he could truly understand what this all meant.  Later that day, another church member told us a story of what had happened the prior Sunday.  This person is a carpenter who had done a lot of work at our home in the months prior and had got to spend a lot of time with all our kids.  He told us that while worshiping in song the prior Sunday, he had his eyes closed as he sang.  He said in the middle of one of the songs, he felt Jesus give him a hug.  He said he opened his eyes, and looked down to see my son hugging him and smiling back.  After hearing this, I realized that others had seen something in him that I had missed.  The next Sunday I got the joy of watching my son eagerly answer yes to all the pastor&#039;s questions and see the smile when he came up out of the water.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am Baptist and my son has autism.  This past spring our pastor approached my wife &amp; I on whether we would like him to be baptized.  My was hesitant, as I was concerned as to whether he could truly understand what this all meant.  Later that day, another church member told us a story of what had happened the prior Sunday.  This person is a carpenter who had done a lot of work at our home in the months prior and had got to spend a lot of time with all our kids.  He told us that while worshiping in song the prior Sunday, he had his eyes closed as he sang.  He said in the middle of one of the songs, he felt Jesus give him a hug.  He said he opened his eyes, and looked down to see my son hugging him and smiling back.  After hearing this, I realized that others had seen something in him that I had missed.  The next Sunday I got the joy of watching my son eagerly answer yes to all the pastor&#8217;s questions and see the smile when he came up out of the water.</p>
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		<title>By: JoeA</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513554</link>
		<dc:creator>JoeA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513554</guid>
		<description>Yep, been there...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, been there&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513426</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 06:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513426</guid>
		<description>Good post. It raises the question of how much one must be able to apprehend to have a demonstrable faith. After 40 years as a believer, I&#039;d have to say not a whole lot. A basic apprehension of the love and forgiveness of Jesus on some level is all it takes, and I&#039;m not the one to judge what level. Many times those with handicaps, special needs and extraordinary challenges apprehend this better and more deeply than those of us who live under the delusion that we&#039;re somehow whole and without handicap. That&#039;s one of the great beauties of the gospel, so much simpler and more beautiful than any church constitution, baptist or otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post. It raises the question of how much one must be able to apprehend to have a demonstrable faith. After 40 years as a believer, I&#8217;d have to say not a whole lot. A basic apprehension of the love and forgiveness of Jesus on some level is all it takes, and I&#8217;m not the one to judge what level. Many times those with handicaps, special needs and extraordinary challenges apprehend this better and more deeply than those of us who live under the delusion that we&#8217;re somehow whole and without handicap. That&#8217;s one of the great beauties of the gospel, so much simpler and more beautiful than any church constitution, baptist or otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolf Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513419</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolf Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 05:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513419</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

slightly off topic and not to set off a different discussion but to satisfy my curiosity:

My exposure to RM has been CoC exclusively, here in Austria. Out of curiosity shortly afte my conversion I answered a newspaper ad offering English language Bible study as a way of learning the language. Went and met with Otis Gatewood, veteran CoC missionary to central and eastern Europe, and was very impressed by the concern and conviction he expessed thar if I walked out of his office and across the street, if I should be hit by a car and die, I would be lost because I hadn&#039;t been baptized.

In view of this conviction how can RM churches wait till Easter Sunday to baptize people who might after all die while waiting? Or wait till a child reaches a certain age once that child gives evidence of accountability, when that child might die waiting for that age?

Or is that strong conviction of the necessity of baptism limited to CoC and not shared by other RM churches?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>slightly off topic and not to set off a different discussion but to satisfy my curiosity:</p>
<p>My exposure to RM has been CoC exclusively, here in Austria. Out of curiosity shortly afte my conversion I answered a newspaper ad offering English language Bible study as a way of learning the language. Went and met with Otis Gatewood, veteran CoC missionary to central and eastern Europe, and was very impressed by the concern and conviction he expessed thar if I walked out of his office and across the street, if I should be hit by a car and die, I would be lost because I hadn&#8217;t been baptized.</p>
<p>In view of this conviction how can RM churches wait till Easter Sunday to baptize people who might after all die while waiting? Or wait till a child reaches a certain age once that child gives evidence of accountability, when that child might die waiting for that age?</p>
<p>Or is that strong conviction of the necessity of baptism limited to CoC and not shared by other RM churches?</p>
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		<title>By: Disabilities, baptism, and communion &#124; OrthoCuban</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513418</link>
		<dc:creator>Disabilities, baptism, and communion &#124; OrthoCuban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 05:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513418</guid>
		<description>[...] another blog the pastor was reminiscing about a time when he had debated with himself about the propriety of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] another blog the pastor was reminiscing about a time when he had debated with himself about the propriety of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Ernesto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-100109-special-needs-members-or-how-i-was-right-and-wrong-about-baptizing-an-autistic-boy/comment-page-1#comment-513409</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Ernesto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 04:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4638#comment-513409</guid>
		<description>One final thought on this topic. Philippians says, &quot;Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.&quot;

Another way to put it is that by so strongly limiting Himself, the Son of God chose to become severely disabled (in comparison to his Godly attributes) in order to bring about our salvation. The Incarnation was the omnipresent and omnipotent God throwing much of that aside in order to save us. If such a severely disabled Person of the Trinity can be baptized by Saint John the Baptist, can we not also baptize those who are severely disabled?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One final thought on this topic. Philippians says, &#8220;Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.&#8221;</p>
<p>Another way to put it is that by so strongly limiting Himself, the Son of God chose to become severely disabled (in comparison to his Godly attributes) in order to bring about our salvation. The Incarnation was the omnipresent and omnipotent God throwing much of that aside in order to save us. If such a severely disabled Person of the Trinity can be baptized by Saint John the Baptist, can we not also baptize those who are severely disabled?</p>
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