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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 06:18:09 Bill Kinnon&#8217;s Worship Lament/My Essay &#8220;Looney Tunes&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: The Guy from Knoxville</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-488455</link>
		<dc:creator>The Guy from Knoxville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-488455</guid>
		<description>Hey guys, I think the whole traditional/contemporary issue, on my part, is just that - my part.  I&#039;ve thought long and hard about this issue and have begun to realize the issue has been me all along.... a big thing for a musician to admit and especially so for a traditional musician such as myself.  Admittedly there is nothing necessarily wrong with certain aspects of contemporary worship music yet some of it just has no place in worship and the same can be said for traditional as well.  It would do us good though to realize that music, like most things, has a foundation and that which we are so quick to throw out so many times these days is a big part if not the major part of the foundation of worship music in the church (speaking universal church from its beginning to now).

Bottom line is you can&#039;t throw out the foundation without the entire thing collapsing into chaos and it&#039;s somewhat easy to spot this if you look at some of the congregations that have gone wholesale contemporary in all its forms having tossed out all the sacred music and hymnody that makes up the greater body of church music.

I definately choose to stay with my traditional approach but keeping in mind, more so than in the past, that contemporary worship music has its place and some of the good ones will be in the hymnals and song books in the future.... I mean who thought, back in the 1970s, that Gaither would be in hymnals?  Some of their music was/is good and made it into our hymnals today so anything is possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey guys, I think the whole traditional/contemporary issue, on my part, is just that &#8211; my part.  I&#8217;ve thought long and hard about this issue and have begun to realize the issue has been me all along&#8230;. a big thing for a musician to admit and especially so for a traditional musician such as myself.  Admittedly there is nothing necessarily wrong with certain aspects of contemporary worship music yet some of it just has no place in worship and the same can be said for traditional as well.  It would do us good though to realize that music, like most things, has a foundation and that which we are so quick to throw out so many times these days is a big part if not the major part of the foundation of worship music in the church (speaking universal church from its beginning to now).</p>
<p>Bottom line is you can&#8217;t throw out the foundation without the entire thing collapsing into chaos and it&#8217;s somewhat easy to spot this if you look at some of the congregations that have gone wholesale contemporary in all its forms having tossed out all the sacred music and hymnody that makes up the greater body of church music.</p>
<p>I definately choose to stay with my traditional approach but keeping in mind, more so than in the past, that contemporary worship music has its place and some of the good ones will be in the hymnals and song books in the future&#8230;. I mean who thought, back in the 1970s, that Gaither would be in hymnals?  Some of their music was/is good and made it into our hymnals today so anything is possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-487902</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-487902</guid>
		<description>I confess I was guilty of the presentation mentality for most of my Christian walk.  And God took the desire to play and lead away from me.  Wasn&#039;t asked to step down - in fact, I left a small gap when I did.

However...  excellence for Him is important.  I think that, by allowing inaccurate notes, words on the slide show, or words sung, we&#039;re communicating to those around us (on the odd chance that there were some seekers in the congregation) that our God isn&#039;t worth our best.  He is, was, and always will be.

I didn&#039;t care for the mindset of one of the musicians I was leading where she&#039;d not come to rehearsals but then expect to play on Sunday morning.  Often rushing and missing some chords and notes.  

I like 13ths and 9ths.  dim7ths are so yesterday.

Now, we enjoy a home/family experience that is a bit freer, letting the kids pick some music that might be in the &quot;book&quot; or on the iPod.  We include hymns and CCM stuff.  

I see that the other worship / music thread doesn&#039;t allow comments.  Maybe because there are 200 of them already?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I confess I was guilty of the presentation mentality for most of my Christian walk.  And God took the desire to play and lead away from me.  Wasn&#8217;t asked to step down &#8211; in fact, I left a small gap when I did.</p>
<p>However&#8230;  excellence for Him is important.  I think that, by allowing inaccurate notes, words on the slide show, or words sung, we&#8217;re communicating to those around us (on the odd chance that there were some seekers in the congregation) that our God isn&#8217;t worth our best.  He is, was, and always will be.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t care for the mindset of one of the musicians I was leading where she&#8217;d not come to rehearsals but then expect to play on Sunday morning.  Often rushing and missing some chords and notes.  </p>
<p>I like 13ths and 9ths.  dim7ths are so yesterday.</p>
<p>Now, we enjoy a home/family experience that is a bit freer, letting the kids pick some music that might be in the &#8220;book&#8221; or on the iPod.  We include hymns and CCM stuff.  </p>
<p>I see that the other worship / music thread doesn&#8217;t allow comments.  Maybe because there are 200 of them already?</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-487305</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-487305</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s nothing &quot;bad&quot; about traditional worship, and I&#039;m sorry if it seemed that I was suggesting that there was. I was just expressing my own experiences through the subjective lens of my own tastes and preferences. I like energy. I like to rock&#039;n roll. I love variety and the unexpected. It gets under my skin if the radio plays the same song twice in the same day -- so you can probably guess how I feel about doing and observing pretty much the same thing, Sunday after Sunday.
But that&#039;s just me. My ideal worship service would probably give most people a nervous breakdown.
And you&#039;re right, church shouldn&#039;t be a rock concert, nor should it be a mere venue for good preaching or hymn singing. My tastes aside, I think the church should be more of a collective expression of the spiritual activity going on in the lives of every single member -- rather than just a spotlight for the most spiritual or most talented few.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s nothing &#8220;bad&#8221; about traditional worship, and I&#8217;m sorry if it seemed that I was suggesting that there was. I was just expressing my own experiences through the subjective lens of my own tastes and preferences. I like energy. I like to rock&#8217;n roll. I love variety and the unexpected. It gets under my skin if the radio plays the same song twice in the same day &#8212; so you can probably guess how I feel about doing and observing pretty much the same thing, Sunday after Sunday.<br />
But that&#8217;s just me. My ideal worship service would probably give most people a nervous breakdown.<br />
And you&#8217;re right, church shouldn&#8217;t be a rock concert, nor should it be a mere venue for good preaching or hymn singing. My tastes aside, I think the church should be more of a collective expression of the spiritual activity going on in the lives of every single member &#8212; rather than just a spotlight for the most spiritual or most talented few.</p>
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		<title>By: The Guy from Knoxville</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-487094</link>
		<dc:creator>The Guy from Knoxville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-487094</guid>
		<description>I have to ask this and at the risk of getting absolutely blasted into next year but, sometimes you just gotta.  Folks (and Ron) what is it about traditional worship and music that you so dislike -why is it so bad??!!  Quiet honestly I&#039;m quite tired of being drummed and blasted out of these &quot;so called&quot; worship servies. I just about can&#039;t handle &quot;church worship&quot; anymore - I can&#039;t get away from it.... it&#039;s everywhere and it&#039;s to the point that I&#039;ve just about given up on ever finding a church that has any decent service of worship period. Church is not a rock concert people!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to ask this and at the risk of getting absolutely blasted into next year but, sometimes you just gotta.  Folks (and Ron) what is it about traditional worship and music that you so dislike -why is it so bad??!!  Quiet honestly I&#8217;m quite tired of being drummed and blasted out of these &#8220;so called&#8221; worship servies. I just about can&#8217;t handle &#8220;church worship&#8221; anymore &#8211; I can&#8217;t get away from it&#8230;. it&#8217;s everywhere and it&#8217;s to the point that I&#8217;ve just about given up on ever finding a church that has any decent service of worship period. Church is not a rock concert people!</p>
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		<title>By: iMonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-486241</link>
		<dc:creator>iMonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 01:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-486241</guid>
		<description>Sufjan makes me want to drive nails through my ears. The butterfly wings concert completely loses me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sufjan makes me want to drive nails through my ears. The butterfly wings concert completely loses me.</p>
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		<title>By: rampancy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-486236</link>
		<dc:creator>rampancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 01:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-486236</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Sufjan Stevens is quite good, though he stays completely disconnected with the CCM industry, which is quite understandable.&quot;
&lt;/i&gt;
I&#039;d hardly consider Sufjan Stevens &quot;Christian&quot; (though he does have a lot of good stuff for Christians to listen to). His music seems to defy any conventional attempts at classifying. (Is it Folk? Alternative?...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Sufjan Stevens is quite good, though he stays completely disconnected with the CCM industry, which is quite understandable.&#8221;<br />
</i><br />
I&#8217;d hardly consider Sufjan Stevens &#8220;Christian&#8221; (though he does have a lot of good stuff for Christians to listen to). His music seems to defy any conventional attempts at classifying. (Is it Folk? Alternative?&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: dumb ox</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-486097</link>
		<dc:creator>dumb ox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-486097</guid>
		<description>I find this very encouraging:

http://www.modernpsalter.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this very encouraging:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.modernpsalter.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.modernpsalter.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-486025</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-486025</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;Joel, I hate to sound ugly here but it appears from the outside that churches will gobble up anything that is labeled as “Christian.” Christian Films? Christian Fiction? Contemporary Christian Music? No matter how low the quality (musically or theologically), it seems like many Christians feel like they have to consume it.&lt;/i&gt; -- Scott Ferguson

Tell me about it.  I belong to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://lostgenreguild.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lost Genre Guild&lt;/a&gt;, and that guild was formed SPECIFICALLY to give genre writers an end run around the Conventionally Christian (TM) market.

Because the Christian (TM) market reminds me of nothing so much as Furry Fandom.  Drooling fanboys who don&#039;t care how crappy it is, just so long as it floats their boat.  Whether that boat to float is &quot;Everyone has to have FUR! And TAILS!&quot; or &quot;Subjects limited to &#039;Just like the latest fad, except CHRISTIAN (TM)!&#039;, Uber-Squeeky-Clean G-rated (not even the word &#039;breast&#039;), a Bible quote every X pages and the required Altar Call Ending Where We Present The Plan Of Salvation to the Reader.&quot;  I mean, a lot of the CHRISTIAN (TM) genre stuff -- from &lt;i&gt;Left Behind&lt;/i&gt; to bonnet romances -- is as checklist-formulaic as porn, complete to the &quot;money scene&quot; every X pages -- Slacktivist&#039;s blog coined the term (for &lt;i&gt;Left Behind&lt;/i&gt; and its sub-genre) &quot;Pre-Trib Porn&quot; and &quot;Porn for Christians&quot; to describe such writing.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.lostgenreguild.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;There is better stuff out there&lt;/a&gt;, but so far limited to small presses.  It&#039;s an uphill struggle against a Christian (TM) establishment dedicated to the Christian (TM) equivalents of &lt;i&gt;Eragon, Twilight&lt;/i&gt;, and JIMBee bubblegum.

WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SET THE TREND -- MUSIC, LITERATURE, ART, WHATEVER -- INSTEAD OF DENOUNCING IT THEN COMING OUT (USUALLY WHEN IT&#039;S JUMPED THE SHARK) WITH OUR SANITIZED CHRISTIAN (TM) KNOCKOFFS?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Joel, I hate to sound ugly here but it appears from the outside that churches will gobble up anything that is labeled as “Christian.” Christian Films? Christian Fiction? Contemporary Christian Music? No matter how low the quality (musically or theologically), it seems like many Christians feel like they have to consume it.</i> &#8212; Scott Ferguson</p>
<p>Tell me about it.  I belong to the <a href="http://lostgenreguild.com/" rel="nofollow">Lost Genre Guild</a>, and that guild was formed SPECIFICALLY to give genre writers an end run around the Conventionally Christian (TM) market.</p>
<p>Because the Christian (TM) market reminds me of nothing so much as Furry Fandom.  Drooling fanboys who don&#8217;t care how crappy it is, just so long as it floats their boat.  Whether that boat to float is &#8220;Everyone has to have FUR! And TAILS!&#8221; or &#8220;Subjects limited to &#8216;Just like the latest fad, except CHRISTIAN (TM)!&#8217;, Uber-Squeeky-Clean G-rated (not even the word &#8216;breast&#8217;), a Bible quote every X pages and the required Altar Call Ending Where We Present The Plan Of Salvation to the Reader.&#8221;  I mean, a lot of the CHRISTIAN (TM) genre stuff &#8212; from <i>Left Behind</i> to bonnet romances &#8212; is as checklist-formulaic as porn, complete to the &#8220;money scene&#8221; every X pages &#8212; Slacktivist&#8217;s blog coined the term (for <i>Left Behind</i> and its sub-genre) &#8220;Pre-Trib Porn&#8221; and &#8220;Porn for Christians&#8221; to describe such writing.</p>
<p><a href="http://blog.lostgenreguild.com/" rel="nofollow">There is better stuff out there</a>, but so far limited to small presses.  It&#8217;s an uphill struggle against a Christian (TM) establishment dedicated to the Christian (TM) equivalents of <i>Eragon, Twilight</i>, and JIMBee bubblegum.</p>
<p>WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SET THE TREND &#8212; MUSIC, LITERATURE, ART, WHATEVER &#8212; INSTEAD OF DENOUNCING IT THEN COMING OUT (USUALLY WHEN IT&#8217;S JUMPED THE SHARK) WITH OUR SANITIZED CHRISTIAN (TM) KNOCKOFFS?</p>
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		<title>By: dumb ox</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-485974</link>
		<dc:creator>dumb ox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-485974</guid>
		<description>The Reformed Presbyterian synod is producing a new metrical psalter.  MP3 samples are available on the site.

http://www.crownandcovenant.com/Articles.asp?ID=139

I&#039;m not a proponent of regular worship standards; I think Isaac Watts was wrongly criticized for the changes he brought to worship, which lead to the departure from exclusively using the psalter in worship.  I do believe a metrical psalter could be used with music other than 200+ year old hymn tunes.  New music could be written for the psalter which could compliment contemporary style and instruments.  Contemporary worship music isn&#039;t wrong, but simply one of the biggest blown opportunities.  Rather than being used to put on a show, it could be used to reach a new generation.  

I do agree that a theological paradigm has been place on contemporary worship, which is man-centered rather than incarnational;  inspirational but scripture-weak; Christian without mentioning Christ.  It is not new, but was introduced through nineteenth century revivalism.  The challenge will be how to reform that paradigm without throwing out contemporary worship with the bath water.

I use the term, &quot;man-centered&quot; lightly, because it can be used to dehumanize worship.

We can be a little positive; there are some very good worship song writers out there who are bringing needed change; but no matter how good Chris Tomlin is, his music can never carry the service.  Seminaries need to rediscover the lost art of hermeneutics.  Communion, regardless of your view, needs to be treated a needed blessing, rather than a quarterly interruption to the worship schedule.  Visual aids are helpful, but they, too, can&#039;t be the meat of the service.  A good thing can become nauseating through over-use or misuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Reformed Presbyterian synod is producing a new metrical psalter.  MP3 samples are available on the site.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.crownandcovenant.com/Articles.asp?ID=139" rel="nofollow">http://www.crownandcovenant.com/Articles.asp?ID=139</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a proponent of regular worship standards; I think Isaac Watts was wrongly criticized for the changes he brought to worship, which lead to the departure from exclusively using the psalter in worship.  I do believe a metrical psalter could be used with music other than 200+ year old hymn tunes.  New music could be written for the psalter which could compliment contemporary style and instruments.  Contemporary worship music isn&#8217;t wrong, but simply one of the biggest blown opportunities.  Rather than being used to put on a show, it could be used to reach a new generation.  </p>
<p>I do agree that a theological paradigm has been place on contemporary worship, which is man-centered rather than incarnational;  inspirational but scripture-weak; Christian without mentioning Christ.  It is not new, but was introduced through nineteenth century revivalism.  The challenge will be how to reform that paradigm without throwing out contemporary worship with the bath water.</p>
<p>I use the term, &#8220;man-centered&#8221; lightly, because it can be used to dehumanize worship.</p>
<p>We can be a little positive; there are some very good worship song writers out there who are bringing needed change; but no matter how good Chris Tomlin is, his music can never carry the service.  Seminaries need to rediscover the lost art of hermeneutics.  Communion, regardless of your view, needs to be treated a needed blessing, rather than a quarterly interruption to the worship schedule.  Visual aids are helpful, but they, too, can&#8217;t be the meat of the service.  A good thing can become nauseating through over-use or misuse.</p>
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		<title>By: 产后减肥</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061809-bill-kinnons-worship-lamentmy-essay-looney-tunes/comment-page-2#comment-485772</link>
		<dc:creator>产后减肥</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3446#comment-485772</guid>
		<description>路过，顺便顶以下</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>路过，顺便顶以下</p>
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