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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 06:16:07: Alastair Roberts on &#8220;The Denominational Church&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: austin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-367421</link>
		<dc:creator>austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 00:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree with much that is here, but I also appreciate the aknowledgment that some dialects are close to becoming different languages.  I think that a Christian should be open to fellowship and support all who proclaim a salvation by faith alone. 

For that reason I would have no objections to fellowshiping or even sharing a pulpit with at any of the Reformed and Protestant denominations out there, and after reading their orginal Articles I feel the same about Anglicans that still hold to those articles.  

I&#039;ve had Salvation Army, Methodist, Southern Methodist, and Pentecostal all preach at my church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with much that is here, but I also appreciate the aknowledgment that some dialects are close to becoming different languages.  I think that a Christian should be open to fellowship and support all who proclaim a salvation by faith alone. </p>
<p>For that reason I would have no objections to fellowshiping or even sharing a pulpit with at any of the Reformed and Protestant denominations out there, and after reading their orginal Articles I feel the same about Anglicans that still hold to those articles.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had Salvation Army, Methodist, Southern Methodist, and Pentecostal all preach at my church.</p>
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		<title>By: MDS</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-367056</link>
		<dc:creator>MDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church#comment-367056</guid>
		<description>This analysis by Alastair Roberts is excellent. It comes closer to framing the problem and articulating a path toward a solution than anything I&#039;ve yet encountered on this subject. 

It is deeply troubling to me that one of Jesus last prayers on earth was for the oneness of his church. As such, I would think it to carry added weight and significance. And yet I&#039;ve never heard a sermon, nor even read anything dedicated to fleshing out the meaning of this prayer. On the other hand, there is no end to all the sermons and arguments I&#039;ve come across defending the holiness of all our divisions from and against one another. How can God not weep at our arrogance and hardness of heart?

If all of us here were to believe that in Christ we are one, what would this mean for the way we think, speak, and act? If we are truly, no matter our tradition, together the body of Christ, and we were actually to see ourselves in this way, would anything in creation be more wondrous and magnificent? Imagine Christ moving through the world with a body that is one not only in a spiritual and ethereal sense, but men and women of all creeds and cultures that see Christ in each other and so live toward one another accordingly. 

As &quot;unrealistic&quot; and improbable as this vision is, can any of you argue that it is not what we are called to live for?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This analysis by Alastair Roberts is excellent. It comes closer to framing the problem and articulating a path toward a solution than anything I&#8217;ve yet encountered on this subject. </p>
<p>It is deeply troubling to me that one of Jesus last prayers on earth was for the oneness of his church. As such, I would think it to carry added weight and significance. And yet I&#8217;ve never heard a sermon, nor even read anything dedicated to fleshing out the meaning of this prayer. On the other hand, there is no end to all the sermons and arguments I&#8217;ve come across defending the holiness of all our divisions from and against one another. How can God not weep at our arrogance and hardness of heart?</p>
<p>If all of us here were to believe that in Christ we are one, what would this mean for the way we think, speak, and act? If we are truly, no matter our tradition, together the body of Christ, and we were actually to see ourselves in this way, would anything in creation be more wondrous and magnificent? Imagine Christ moving through the world with a body that is one not only in a spiritual and ethereal sense, but men and women of all creeds and cultures that see Christ in each other and so live toward one another accordingly. </p>
<p>As &#8220;unrealistic&#8221; and improbable as this vision is, can any of you argue that it is not what we are called to live for?</p>
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		<title>By: William Geoffrey Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-101796</link>
		<dc:creator>William Geoffrey Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 02:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hmmm, it would have been cool.  I am totally lame for not knowing that....or not because I do not go to church there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, it would have been cool.  I am totally lame for not knowing that&#8230;.or not because I do not go to church there.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Anton</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-101793</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 02:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church#comment-101793</guid>
		<description>Michael;

I appreciate much that you have written over the years, though I have not always agreed with you.   Regarding denominationalism and the church, may I suggest the following.

Rethink the following from a Gospel perspective rather than from a post Epistle perspective.
1)  Jesus Who is called The Christ.  
2)  The Church.  
3)  Church government.  (Matt. 20 + 23)
4)  Praise and Worship.
5)  The Lord’s Supper and Baptism.
6)  Saving faith.
7)  Christian fellowship.
8)  The law and the image of God in humankind.
9)  etc.
It seems to me that the average believer (?) has forgotten the essence of all of the above, resulting in a church that Worships a God Whom they do not know, in ways not prescribed in Scripture, with fellowships/churches that do not conform to the teachings of Jesus Christ.  To fully explain would take hundreds of pages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael;</p>
<p>I appreciate much that you have written over the years, though I have not always agreed with you.   Regarding denominationalism and the church, may I suggest the following.</p>
<p>Rethink the following from a Gospel perspective rather than from a post Epistle perspective.<br />
1)  Jesus Who is called The Christ.<br />
2)  The Church.<br />
3)  Church government.  (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Matt.+20" class="bibleref" title="ESV Matt 20">Matt. 20</a> + 23)<br />
4)  Praise and Worship.<br />
5)  The Lord’s Supper and Baptism.<br />
6)  Saving faith.<br />
7)  Christian fellowship.<br />
 <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' />  The law and the image of God in humankind.<br />
9)  etc.<br />
It seems to me that the average believer (?) has forgotten the essence of all of the above, resulting in a church that Worships a God Whom they do not know, in ways not prescribed in Scripture, with fellowships/churches that do not conform to the teachings of Jesus Christ.  To fully explain would take hundreds of pages.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-101700</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jun 2007 23:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think this is a good point.  I admit myself that I most probably have lost the rootedness of feeling connected to the &#039;true catholic church&#039;.  Without that it is hard to be a reformer as we can&#039;t see what we are reforming back to.  Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is a good point.  I admit myself that I most probably have lost the rootedness of feeling connected to the &#8216;true catholic church&#8217;.  Without that it is hard to be a reformer as we can&#8217;t see what we are reforming back to.  Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-100913</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jun 2007 02:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>That clause was withdrawn by Dr. Piper and never voted on by the elders. I agree with you that it was a good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That clause was withdrawn by Dr. Piper and never voted on by the elders. I agree with you that it was a good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: William Geoffrey Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-100906</link>
		<dc:creator>William Geoffrey Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jun 2007 02:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>All I can say is that I get your drift.  This kind of thinking is one of the reasons I really respect Bethlehem Batpist church in St. Paul, Minn, for their conscientious objectors clause concerning baptism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can say is that I get your drift.  This kind of thinking is one of the reasons I really respect Bethlehem Batpist church in St. Paul, Minn, for their conscientious objectors clause concerning baptism.</p>
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		<title>By: Carson Weber</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-100778</link>
		<dc:creator>Carson Weber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think that a key question is &quot;What did &#039;one, holy, catholic, and apostolic&#039; mean to the Fathers of the Church, for example: Augustine?&quot;  Did it mean &quot;that denominational congregations are subsets of &#039;The Church&#039;&quot;?

I think it&#039;s fair to go back to the sources and ask whether when we speak of &quot;one, holy, catholic, and apostolic,&quot; if we mean the same thing as those who composed and arranged those modifiers together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that a key question is &#8220;What did &#8216;one, holy, catholic, and apostolic&#8217; mean to the Fathers of the Church, for example: Augustine?&#8221;  Did it mean &#8220;that denominational congregations are subsets of &#8216;The Church&#8217;&#8221;?</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s fair to go back to the sources and ask whether when we speak of &#8220;one, holy, catholic, and apostolic,&#8221; if we mean the same thing as those who composed and arranged those modifiers together.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church/comment-page-1#comment-100611</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wow, another great post!

I embrace wholeheartedly the central insight here.

I&#039;m reminded of what Soloviev in his &quot;Tale of the Antichrist&quot; describes as the cry of all truly Christian ecumenism: &quot;You give us everything, except what interests us, Jesus Christ.&quot;

I was with your foxhole ecumenism in high school, not literally, but yes, I do remember a certain lived unity in Christ with Baptists and others.

It is realistic to note that Christians not only have different discourses, but also different experiences, different ontologies. As a Catholic, I don&#039;t want to set myself in judgment above the people whom I experience as the Word-made-flesh, but I do embrace as true brothers and sisters all those who cry, &quot;you give us everything, except what interests us, Jesus Christ.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, another great post!</p>
<p>I embrace wholeheartedly the central insight here.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of what Soloviev in his &#8220;Tale of the Antichrist&#8221; describes as the cry of all truly Christian ecumenism: &#8220;You give us everything, except what interests us, Jesus Christ.&#8221;</p>
<p>I was with your foxhole ecumenism in high school, not literally, but yes, I do remember a certain lived unity in Christ with Baptists and others.</p>
<p>It is realistic to note that Christians not only have different discourses, but also different experiences, different ontologies. As a Catholic, I don&#8217;t want to set myself in judgment above the people whom I experience as the Word-made-flesh, but I do embrace as true brothers and sisters all those who cry, &#8220;you give us everything, except what interests us, Jesus Christ.&#8221;</p>
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