UPDATE: All Comments are in moderation.
UPDATE II: Readers might also enjoy “A God Shaped Void? Maybe Not.” From May ’06.
(Lalli recently wrote on the challenge of being an atheist parent.)
Gone are the days when a high school or college atheist felt alone. Now close to 1 in 5 Americans are on the “godless” plan.
The ARIS study (see link in the post or this link at USA today) says that those with “no religion” have doubled in less than 20 years; growing by almost 10% a decade. Look at America in 2050 if that growth rate continues at even half that speed: a third of the country will be “godless.”
If evangelicals and other Christians had their heads about them, they would welcome this development. No religion beats meaningless adherence to religion every time. I see this every day. I work with dozens of students with a cultural adherence to a particular “Christian” religion. They overwhelmingly know almost nothing of Jesus, nothing of the Bible, nothing but a collection of cultural traditions, legends and superstitions about Christianity, but they consider themselves Christians.
When it comes to my job as a Christian communicator, give me the students who are “non-religious” over sorting through cultural adherence and dead superstition. (OK atheists, I can hear you snickering. Control yourselves. It’s still my blog.)
But evangelicals have spent a large part of the post-war era villianizing atheists and the non-religious. Sometimes out of manipulation. Sometimes out of ignorance. Sometimes out of fear. Always out of an abandonment of a Jesus shaped view of those who are not Christians.
We’ve been fed the kind of exaggerations and over-reactions about “the non-religious” that ought to make us ashamed. We’ve bought into all these grand fears that we are going to lose “our” country to “them.” Somehow, a lot of Christians agree with Lalli’s citation of former VP George H.W. Bush: “I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots.”
Lalli says that the atheist next door wants to live peacefully. They want to be accepted by their religious friends and families. They want to participate as full members of society and be part of the “common public good” we all want to achieve together.
Of course, some evangelicals won’t hear that, and Lalli has some idea why. She knows it’s a two way street when it comes to hostility toward one another:
Some atheists out there might wish to de-convert believers, pull them away from their faith or disprove their gods, and it is true that those are the atheists who write the books that make the best-seller lists. Indeed, Richard Dawkins and his The God Delusion ilk have made a pretty penny stirring this controversy. But many of us — dare I say most of us — would prefer coexisting over combat.But is that really possible? To read the blogs that discuss such issues, you’d be tempted to say no. In fact, when I wrote a piece about raising my children without a specific religion — published in this newspaper — readers on the website responded with some support as well as some lacerating condemnation, such as “you are abdicating your role as a parent,” and worse, “without God, we are nothing.” In fact, whenever I have published anything about being an atheist, I have had to stop reading my e-mails from people of faith who — oh, the irony — say things that are very hateful.
I know the feeling. When I write reasonably about atheists, I get mail saying I’m about to become one. When atheists wrote me during my fifteen minutes of fame last month, they were divided between reasonable people commending me and hate-filled scary people talking about herding all religious people into camps and “getting rid” of us.
I’m concerned that the atheist community will find the temptation for “cultural revenge to be strong. I won’t be surprised at all if we’re about to enter a period where Christians will find a vocal, powerful minority of empowered atheists prepared to harass and even persecute.
Both sides have extremists whom the media love to get on the air to jack up ratings. Talk radio loves the extremists. But do they represent what most of us think?
I can accept that there are 60 million non-religious in America. I trust that they have no more desire to eliminate my religious faith than I do their unbelief, but I want to know if their claims of acceptance extent into the practice of my religion? Are Christians going to be viewed as brain washers and child abusers? Will religious communities be attacked by violent nut jobs? If so, what will the non-religious community have to say? Will my rights to oppose gay marriage remain part of my political rights as a citizen, or will it automatically make me a danger to society?
I think it’s fair for non-religious to ask if their kids can be free of harassment in public schools? Can an atheist openly speak of atheism without being lynched in the press or Christian media? Can unbelievers pursue their rights to avoid public demonstrations of religion for their children and themselves?
I hear Lalli’s experience, but I’m not sure any of us know what tolerance looks like.
I have some ideas:
1. Let’s stop getting together to debate and let’s get together to talk about what we have in common.
2. Let’s both clearly and consistently distance ourselves from the extremists and manipulators.
3. Let’s find a way to do things together that we both believe are important. Why can’t atheists and Christians feed the homeless and work on rights on conscience issues together?
4. Let’s go to the other team’s gatherings and describe our concerns and points of view in each other’s presence, without name calling.
5. Let’s treat one another like Jesus would. I think even atheists would sign on for that.
We need to make a start. Christians and non-religious are going to be two very large communities in American. Can we find a way to exist in the real world, with real mutual interests, or are we cauht in a cycle of hateful rhetoric and misrepresentation?
It’s hard to foresee the future of atheism. Some on the Internet are waking up to the fact that atheism does not make you a better person, and mocking the sort of unconsidered Christians you talk about is unproductive. Will that population become a majority, or will people come to decide that Christianity needs to be fought against around the world? It’s entirely an open question right now.
>…mocking the sort of unconsidered Christians you talk about is unproductive.
Does “unconsidered” mean “inconsiderate?”
ms
I can understand how many people, believing and nonbelieving, feel about those who call themselves Christian but have little or no demonstrable knowledge of what they say they believe and no observable effect (fruit) of what they say they believe on their lives. Those “christians”, however, can rant on que about the hell-bound (fill in the blank). I am Christian and I don’t like them much myself. What we have in common with those who don’t believe and the skeptics is a common humanity. If we can work alongside them in a non-judgmental way then perhaps the strength of our beliefs will make a difference in our lives and theirs. I think it was St. Francis who said, “Preach the Gospel everyday and when necessary use words.”
Amen, IM. A-bloody-men.
The sooner cultural Christianity dies a quick death, the sooner there will be greater peace. You know, I can understand if the atheist community felt the need for revenge. Christianity is the ugliest religion on earth, with the ugliest people. We have smeared God’s name into the dirt throughout the world with our insistence on our own and our religion’s power and influence and the seats at the political tables. That quote from Bush made me want to hurl. Disgusting. Completely and utterly disgusting.
I wouldn’t imagine an atheist revolt. Because atheists I find on the whole are generally reasonable people. It’s Christians who seem to me to be the most unreasonable. We seem to think we can see, when the longer it goes on the more patently and obviously apparent it is that we are more like that Laodicean church than any of the others. We refuse to see our own blindness and nakedness, like the Emperor and his new clothes. I hate it, I really and truly hate and despise Christianity for what it does to all of us. And I am a Christian.
Seriously, the sooner it dies the better. Then us Christians can begin having as much life and freedom as Christ came to bring.
Michael,
But if we all learn to get along what will we do with the culture war? I’m feeling lost already.
Have you ever heard say: “Jesus is not religion, it’s life (… relation or whatever the bumper sticker says)”?
How many of us “evangelical christians” slap this words in the face of (mostly) catholic people and then preach them: If you want to become a REAL CHRISTIAN, you have to become… EVANGELICAL!!!? (Obviously we don’t say it that way).
We rant about a void religious life and go trough the motions every single weekend without questioning our own religious practices, because we find them fulfilling. Then what’s the difference with other religious practices that other people find fulfilling for them?
I’m no theology scholar, but it seems to me that Hebrews speaks of Christ replacing the religious order of communion with God (trough Sacrifices – read tithes and offerings – Temple and Priests) for another more natural and familiar trough Christ. He replaced the religious agenda with the original idea of communion set on the Garden of Eden. (What was Adams religion? anyone?
Am I wrong here? or we’re missing the point? Jesus didn’t come to replace old religions with a brand new one. He came to (in his own words): Set the captives free!!! (religious ones included). That’s why I find pointless arguing of catholic vs. evangelicals, or them vs. us. Once you get rid of the religious agenda, you’re set free to be a true witness of the gospel.
Wanna be counter-cultural? Fall passionately in love with God, know him and Go and live a “normal” life (eg.: do whatever you do for a living) and while you’re at it, make disciples, cast out devils, heal the sick, plead the case of the widow and the poor; don’t worry about being saved by grace or by works, just be a christian-less all the add-ons. I dare you to see the counter-cultural effects of that.
I know maybe this post will be misunderstood, or even criticized. I know we can keep arguing forever about the relevance of our religious liturgy and practices. But lets face it… Our Religion and denominationalism is one of the main things the hinders the church to witness to people like Bill Maher, Muslims, far eastern religions, atheists, agnostics, etc. (John 17? anyone?).
Let me be clear on this, I’m no ecumenist… far from it! Forget all what you know and start over. Discover the bigger picture… It’s about God, not about our religions. Jesus slammed the religious establishment of his days; Paul was unwilling to allow the corinthians jump into the denominationalism bandwagon; and here we are almost 2000 years later trying to make sense of all the religion-mess that we are in.
Can we get along with atheists?
There are reasonable individuals, Christian and otherwise, who can always get along. Unfortunately they to often seem to be the minority.
I like to think that the real majority just keeps to themselves and minds their own business. I mean for all the political division among us near half of the country agreed not to vote.
As far as things in common go, I wish we all could agree to disown people like Pat Robertson and Richard Dawkins.
Of the many roommates I had during my college years, I count an atheist math major of Jewish extraction and a Mennonite electrical engineering major (!) from Philly among them. To this day, I’m still not sure which was the more exemplary young man this one-time evangelical was privileged to share a bit of his life with.
Would that all atheists aspire to the lifestyles espoused by my soft-spoken Jewish friend and by Ms. Lalli, and we Christians to that of my viola-playing Anabaptist roommate! Such is my hope and my prayer.
I welcome the death of the “civic religion”, and the assumption in America that all are Christians. Then maybe we can relate to the book of Acts and the Epistles.
I find it ironic that early Christians were called atheists in the Roman world because they did not worship the pantheon of pagan gods.
The definitions of atheist and Christian are very narrow, especially in the media.
Christian has now become shorthand in the press for describing the religious branch of the Republican Party, as opposed to the business branch.
Atheist is shorthand for radical Darwinians, who want to pull down Christmas trees in public parks.
The demographic of people who have no religion or no belief in God, may also include Woody Allen type agnostics who do not have faith that there is no God and are intellectually honest enough to admit it. But it also includes what seems a large segment of the population that is focused almost exclusively on pop culture idolatry and the consumer exploitation that thrives around it. Some of these people not only are not atheists, they could not even define atheism and maybe couldn’t spell it.
It is this latter group that is potentially the most frightening because they don’t really believe in anything, including atheism or agnosticism, and have no idea why the don’t believe what they don’t believe and can be very easily manipulated by marketing and advertising. If the pop culture idolatry demographic reaches critical mass it could become very difficult to maintain any form of society as we have known it.
RWS2
“The demographic of people who have no religion or no belief in God, may also include Woody Allen type agnostics who do not have faith that there is no God and are intellectually honest enough to admit it. But it also includes what seems a large segment of the population that is focused almost exclusively on pop culture idolatry and the consumer exploitation that thrives around it. Some of these people not only are not atheists, they could not even define atheism and maybe couldn’t spell it.”
I was thinking the same thing. Here is the question though. Which demographic is going to be most receptive to the gospel? The atheist or the cultural agnostic?
“I have had to stop reading my e-mails from people of faith who — oh, the irony — say things that are very hateful.”
That’s the sad thing right there. We hate in the name of Jesus. We are deceived into thinking that overly aggressive evangelism and criticism will bring them to Christ. As a result, we are better known for what we are against than what we are for; who we hate, rather than how we simply love people.
Michael, your #5, “Let’s treat one another like Jesus would. I think even atheists would sign on for that,†is foundational. Love God. Love people. Until we do those things systematically and instinctively, our name will be dragged in the mud and we will forever be known as hypocrites.
Among other things, Michael says,
I think it’s fair for non-religious to ask if their kids can be free of harassment in public schools? Can an atheist openly speak of atheism without being lynched in the press or Christian media? Can unbelievers pursue their rights to avoid public demonstrations of religion for their children and themselves?
and there I think lies the problem.
If you are a Christian, and you raise your kids to believe that there is salvation only in the name of Jesus, and that we have a duty to share that Good News with the people around us, chances are that sooner or later your daughter or son will begin to share with his or here class mates.
Increasingly non-religious folk will consider that harrassment and a violation of their right to avoid public demonstrations of religion for their children.
There is an unavoidable flash point between Christians and atheists in that Christians have an inherent requirement to share their faith while atheists, even if not militant like Dawkins and Co, usually have an inherent resentment of being evangelized.
This is increasingly the problem faced by Christians: those who disagree with us, while claiming to be tolerant because they are not trying to convert us to their view, are in reality intolerant because they do not want us to share our faith or voice our convictions.
Here are some other examples: people living in same-sex relationships don’t want us expressing our view that this is inappropriate; the Jewish community considers any hint that Jews need Jesus to be an expression of anti-semitism; and one could find further examples.
How do those who advocate “getting along” propose to deal with this without abandoning core features of our faith?
iMonk,
I don’t know if you have seen it, but there is an article that might be the atheist equivalent of your “Decline of Evangelicalism” writings. Maybe there is some middle ground out there. I don’t know that I see it yet, but it is possible. This guy’s article could be the mirror of your call to meet in the middle here.
I’m just wondering that if an “empowered minority” did rise, or even more, would Atheists allow Christians the same voice that Atheist’s enjoy now? Not that we haven’t brought condemnation on ourselves over oodles and oodles of hypocrisy, but would an Atheist majority really allow Christians a voice in the public square and market place of ideas should the tables turn? I wonder and doubt because currently Atheists (weak Atheists) do enjoy greater numbers in the scientific arena, and yet it is nearly impossible for Christians to be heard in that realm. But I will affirm that Atheists are far easier to have a meaningful dialogue with than lukewarm Christians..it pains me to say that but experientially it’s all too often true.
Brad
Having viewed this issue from both sides of the fence -
I don’t think we get a realistic view of real world interactions between atheists and Christians based on Internet comments.
Raising a family in an atheist environment we didn’t really encounter much hostility. Our son played with children from both atheist and Christian families. We made no secret of our views but it really didn’t come up at cookouts or other gatherings. Actually, I have no idea about the religious views of most of the families back then.
Online, people can respond in complete anonymity. Many things are said that would never be said face to face while relaxing on a co-worker’s patio. And it is impossible to know the true agenda behind hateful comments made online. I’m not dismissing the real world problems, only suggesting that it’s not really comparable.
There are many who reject Christianity because of experiences in their church. Then there are the younger ones who grew up in homes without religion. They are further removed from the church and their opinions of Christianity are often formed by TV evangelists, movie/TV depictions of Christians and the scandals that make the evening news. I would hope that Christians take the opportunity of any interaction to show the loving face of Christianity. The atheist may have no interest in the church, but you never know maybe down the road that encounter will become a significant memory.
Here I am, living proof that yesterday’s agnostic can become today’s Christian with the biggest regret being that the journey took so long.
Part of the problem may be that Americans, in general, seem to have a hard time deeply disagreeing with each other without actually *treating* each other *badly.*
I know this is a huge generalization, but I have heard descriptions of life in Europe, where friends have very passionate philosophical or theological debates, but they come away from the debates *still being friends.* Do we know how to do that very well in America? I’m not sure that we do (again, speaking generally).
Of course, one problem may also be that quite a few committed Christians (including myself) simply don’t *have* many friends with whom they deeply disagree, in terms of worldviews. Such friendships can sometimes be tough to navigate, as Christians and non-Christians do disagree on some pretty fundamental levels.
However, one of the most precious friendships in my life is one that started in college and that has lasted over fourteen years. I am a Christian; currently, he is an agnostic who is considering atheism. Our friendship started out of a shared love for classical music and broadened to include serious discussions of films, literature, philosophy, politics… and yes, religion.
The religious discussions have, at times, gotten pretty fiery, and we have each gotten upset, occasionally, with the other. However, we deeply care about each other (and we do still have much in common), so the friendship continues. I long for more, similarly deep friendships with non-Christians.
‘Look at America in 2050 if that growth rate continues at even half that speed: a third of the country will be “godless.‒
Such projections are extremely hazardous. Let me share with you another statistic-oid: 21 percent of self-declared U.S. atheists profess a belief in God, and 6 percent believe in a personal God.
http://vereloqui.blogspot.com/2008/06/pew-forum-21-percent-of-atheists.html
What this says to me is that people’s beliefs are a whole lot mushier than the hard-and-fast categories that pollsters prefer. In fact, I suspect that a certain percentage of respondents will answer “yes” to any question that is asked.
The word “atheist” scares a lot of people who are not otherwise religious, who might prefer “secular” or “spiritual not religious” or something like that. Of course there are social pressures involved, but I think it is more than that. As an illustration, I know some Chinese people who say they don’t belong to any religion, but sort of believe in ghosts (or at least, don’t NOT believe). How many other “niche atheisms” are there? I doubt they’re going to go after Christians with pitchforks.
Also, atheism to some degree probably falls into a life-cycle pattern, with a lot of teenagers and college students becoming atheists, only to moderate their views later (especially when they have kids). Not that this has anything to do with who’s right.
I’ve always lived in fairly secular nations (New Zealand and Britain). More than half of my friends have ‘no religion’. Most of the people I work with or meet when I’m out are non-religious and/or atheist. The same cross section of ‘types’ exists within these groups as any other. My life is neither hard nor easy for it. It’s really no big deal at all. We’re all people.
The USA must be a very different place indeed if co-existence is an “issue” there.
Sue’s remark:
The sooner cultural Christianity dies a quick death, the sooner there will be greater peace.
I’m not so sure this is in the cards. “Cultural” christianity, as Michael can attest, is a lot bigger than the American Evangelical ghetto. Witness for example the Syriac and Coptic churches, the multiple millions of traditional Catholics around the world, the iconic (ahem) Protestant/Catholic camps in northern Ireland, etc. etc… Cultural Christianity has been around in many forms for a couple of millenia now, and won’t be dying off anytime soon (more’s the pity). But if the hope is for peace in this framework, then we’d best get used to conflict.
I’m somewhat curious, from my athiest friends out there, how the religious are viewed– i.e. are Christians and Muslims and Mormons and Wiccans and (your team here) all looked at kinda the same, or do you see the differences and nuances that the religous see? Or, put another way, do athiests paint with a broad brush the way that a lot of religious people do? I ask here because, in my little corner of America, actual athiests are more scarce than a healthy 401(k); I don’t think I know a single one that I could ask the question.
I am reminded of these simple words of Reuel Howe in his book The Miracle of Dialogue – ‘Communication means life or death to persons.’ This quote might hit a little too close to home in the usual saga between Christians and the non-religious.
Dialogue is so important. In the past, and maybe even today, that word (dialogue) can be scary for evangelicals. Some have tended to think that those who want to undertake such a practice would be giving in and turning from our faith. But I really believe Jesus took time to listen to others. Even God takes time to listen to our arrogant rants, and even with compassion. Even some atheists take time to listen to our rants, showing a little more of Jesus than we do at times.
So, I’m up for listening and dialoguing. And, by this, I think we might have a better opportunity and drawing people in to the heart of God.
AL Mohler is probably agreed with and disagreed with by by the readers here but he does have keen insight on the decline of Christianity in America. He reciently wrote an interesting comment at http://www.albertmohler.com. on the Newsweek article – The End of Christian America. Worth a read.
I think that the source of tension is the use of government power. Believers feel like the courts treat non-belief or secular humanism is treated like an established church. Non-believers feel the same way about school curriculum battles.
Seems to me that part of the problem on both sides lies in our insistence on labeling groups of people. Jesus didn’t come to save Jews or Samaritans or Romans, He came to save individuals: Paul, Cornelius, and Dorcas. We should not be evangelizing atheists, homosexuals, agnostics, or addicts; we should be living our faith and building relationships with Mark, Judy, Amber, etc. Christianity started getting off track when it went corporate, when it became an organization, rather than a living body existing in relationship.
Let me toss out some strange, fringe, probably heretical musings, and believe it or not, I’m going to incorporate Francis Schaeffer
.
First, I must ask, why is the modern Atheist a moral, productive member of American society and not a raping, pillaging pre-Christian barbarian? Where are they getting their sense of morals. As Schaeffer would say, let’s tear the roof off of their ideology. Others could disagree, but I would say that they are still running on the fumes of their Judeo/Christian heritage. Warped and dying though it may be, as Americans or even Europeans, they have still grown up in a Judeo/Christian paradigm (by extension, one could even argue that Islam, as on of the three great monotheistic religions, provides a certain moral framework).
Now, here’s where I get heretical, and I’m totally going out on a limb and speculating here. But, if we step for a moment outside of the paradigm of individual salvation and look at the greater narrative of God’s redemption of the whole cosmos, I have to sometimes wonder who the real Christians are. “Christian” technically means Christ-like. I have always pondered why many non-Christians I know behave more like the Christ described in the Gospels than many of the “Christians” I know. If Christianity means simply agreeing on a philosophical level to a set of propositions, then it’s easy to distinguish who the Christians are. However, if it means “follow me” or “if you love me, you will obey my commandments,” well…
Now, do I think a moral Atheist is moral because of something intrinsically moral within their nature? By no means. We are all fallen and corrupt. However, I also believe that all good and perfect gifts come from above. Could, perhaps, the Spirit be at work even within some who technically reject the outer trappings or Christendom but, if even unconsciously, accept the Lordship of Christ in their lives? Now, we can stick such thoughts into tiny little Enlightenment boxes with titles like “common grace,” “special revelation,” “general revelation,” and other such terms which never actually appear in the Bible, but…
However, how long will even such a dream last? Sooner or later, if the Bible is not being taught and the Triune God is not being worshiped, those fumes may die out for America and Europe, although I have hope for the Global South. Individual salvation aside, the world needs the Royal Priesthood spreading the Spirit throughout the whole world. Of course, being somewhat Post-Mil, I try to hope such declines are temporary setbacks and still dream of the day when God’s glory will fill the whole earth.
I know a lot of us would like to see our religion not being shared by part-timers, unrepentant hypocrites, etc., but I think the end of the domination of the Christian idiom in America is going to make things hard on us. Far from making us seem more Christian, I think we’ll look and feel more lost than ever, and I don’t welcome that.
When society discourages religious expression, it’s harder for everyday people to find a context for their religious beliefs. It’s difficult to participate AS a Christian when everybody has already agreed that your ethics are out of touch and have forced you to admit that your religion is merely “personal” – all the worse if they only remember your religion as a guilt circus.
When even Christians today concede that they are repressed and often hung up on nonsense, I think we can assume that a great decline of our numbers will be hastened by the public humiliation of our faith – good people will leave because they won’t be able to make sense of their spirituality without the cultural incubation that helped them name their faith as Christian. Already it seems many Christians don’t know how to answer the question, “why be Christian?” without mumbling something about their personal lives or some ministry program they like..
Without help from society, it’s hard to make your beliefs matter, even to yourself.
The larger question is, can a country whose ideals and fundamental documents, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, were conceptualized and written almost exclusively by theists , conventional and Deists, continue to exist with a majority of Atheists. Will the basic principle of our liberty, that God grants rights, be respected? How could it?
The churches have failed to reach others, they have failed to teach their own. Few atheists I have known or read developed in a vacuum. Most were hurt by believers, parents, strangers, and became atheists due to meanness, stupidity of others, or a combination of both. On the Imonk 5 ideas:
Will I be called an extremist because I love the atheists and wish to ,in love, debate them in an effort to save them from Hell? Since God is my all in all I have nothing else to offer and little in common.
When we feed the homeless we bring a good meal and the Good News, as many of them need a Savior and a Guide to help them make better life decisions.
I will participate in an Atheist gathering, I did they call it a secular University, and will bet you your last Little Debbie that the name calling will begin early, and not by me. Been there. Take a philosophy or religion class at the nearest non-Christian school and get back to me on that one. Do not expect Atheists to act like Jesus. That is our fault, we never modeled the behavior for them to emulate. That is the problem.
My husband and I are Christians and we have raised our children to share their faith when an opportunity arises. However, we have also taught them to respect others and others’ boundaries and that to “shove” their beliefs on others is disrespectful and unproductive. What is the famous quote? “No one ever got saved because they lost an argument”?
Real Kingdom results, from my own observation and experience, occur much more often when we just befriend people because we care about people as God has called us to do so. Making people “salvation projects” is demeaning to them and makes them less likely to embrace Jesus, not more likely. When we truly love and accept people, are prepared to give gentle answers when asked and take gentle advantage of opportunities as they occur, people will see the love of God within us, and THAT is what makes Jesus attractive and intriguing to them.
“If you are a Christian, and you raise your kids to believe that there is salvation only in the name of Jesus, and that we have a duty to share that Good News with the people around us, chances are that sooner or later your daughter or son will begin to share with his or here class mates.”
Children can be very cruel. My daughter gets called a “bad Christian” by one of her classmates because she’s a Methodist and they’ve “changed the Bible.”
Ironically, one of the reasons we started attending church was because you cannot live in this Southern state without some kind of church affiliation. One of the first questions asked when you first meet people is “What church do you go to?”
I cannot imagine raising an atheist child in this environment. It would be cruel; you’d either have to leave or look at it as a learning opportunity to toughen them up.
All Christians must reflect the new life received through Jesus Christ. However, in being salt and light, we are going to annoy people in general and athesists in particular. We have absolute values and those values do create certain social norms. Overall, a society based on the life of Jesus Christ is a good thing. In fact, the greatest societies ever created have Christian values at the center of their existence.
This is increasingly the problem faced by Christians: those who disagree with us, while claiming to be tolerant because they are not trying to convert us to their view, are in reality intolerant because they do not want us to share our faith or voice our convictions.
To be blunt, I find this the worst kind of fundamentalist narcissism. Yes, you are so victimized because people take umbrage at your harassment. The obvious solution is to voluntarily cease and desist when your efforts at evangelism meet with a “No, thank you” so that the object of your evangelism doesn’t have to get to “go to hell.”
I agree that dealing with atheists is easier than false (“cultural”) Christians.
However, the atheist movement is going to face some real crises.
The current movement is based on “Christian” principles (everyone getting along, equal rights, etc.)
But an atheist has no good reason to hold to these principles… What will things be like in several generations, when Christian principles are long forgotten from the public square? (“Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph”)
Christopher & Phil – part of the difference between Europe and the USA regarding arguments are the many wars that have been fought within the borders of Europe. After a while, one begins to get a little “gun-shy” (pun intended). In addition, we tend to forget that our ancestors came here because they could not compromise their beliefs. For both better and worse, we are descended from people who have trouble resolving an argument without taking the ball and leaving the game. Even here, if your argument got bad enough, you could just move west towards an area inhabited only by “savages,” or you could just have a Civil War. So, culturally, we do not have much experience in resolving arguments or finding middle ground.
Atone – “. . . the same voice that atheists enjoy now. . .” Actually, I hope that we enjoy a better voice than atheists have enjoyed recently. Much of the last 20 some years has been spent in a massive culture fight in which “atheists” have been regularly reviled as though they were the result of all the evil we see. Prior to that, in the 1950′s, the cry was about those “godless communists.” And, then, we blacklisted them all. So, uhm, I certainly hope that, should atheists ever become the majority, they treat us better than we treated them.
Wolf Paul – yes there are excesses, and I can cite some of them myself. But, see what I wrote to Atone, sometimes excesses are partially the result of the treatment that people have received. Some of the misbehavior of Israel with regard to Christian (and Muslim) Arabs is a carbon copy of treatment that they received. Remember that our founding fathers came from a variety of backgrounds, debated each other heartily, and yet were able to form “a more perfect union.” This is more than we can say out of the last 20 some years of cultural fighting in this country. In other words, there was actually more acceptance and tolerance for variety at the beginning than at many times in the recent past.
Sue – you have been reading too much university propaganda. Christianity as the ugliest religion???? Let me walk you over to the Middle East and review several hundred years of history with you. From there, let me take you to the Aztec and Inca sacrifice altars and from there to the Phoenician sacrifice altars and from there to the Druidic sacrifice altars–that’s human sacrifice. And, as for those peaceable atheists, let me point you to Mao, Marx, Lenin, the French revolution, etc. Christianity has had many ugly moments, but it is nowhere near worst. I will agree that we are quite Laodecian in the USA.
We are coming out of a period of time when the Religious Right attempted to define “true” Christianity with an abandon that matched anything the Roman Church did in her time. I am quite grateful that the Religious Right did not ever have the full power of the State on its side, as I fear that they would have succumbed to some of the same temptations to which other “Christian” groups succumbed when they had the power of the State to back them.
It is not, then, surprising that those on the receiving end of the worst tendencies of the Religious Right now are not only pushing back, but are even talking about trying to pass laws to make sure that the Religious Right can never gain control. In their zeal, those groups go way too far and have over-reacted. Frankly, some on the far left make me shudder equally with some on the far right. But, we will never achieve a working harmony (like our Founding Fathers did) unless we stop yelling at each other and find the areas of common ground on which we can agree.
That is politics. It is the messy business of finding out how diverse groups of people can live with each other with the minimum interference and the maximum civil rights. It is a business that never provides permanent solutions nor definitive answers. But, it is better than an absolute monarchy, a dictatorship, an oligarchy or some of the other systems that have been tried.
Ahh, a Democratic Republic, the messiest, but best, system under which to live the civil side of our lives.
*I wonder and doubt because currently Atheists (weak Atheists) do enjoy greater numbers in the scientific arena, and yet it is nearly impossible for Christians to be heard in that realm.*
Actually it’s really, really easy for Christians to be “heard” in the scientific “realm” . . . if what they want to talk about is actual science.
Blithe assertions that there’s a lump on a photo of Mt. Ararat that simply *must* be the remains of Noah’s Ark ain’t gonna cut it. Nor vague assertions of “irreducible complexity” in biological species (wouldn’t irreducible complexity mean, y’know, the end of ANY science?). Nor appeal to Arguments from Personal Incredulity.
Science *isn’t* about “giving” “both” “sides” equal “time”. The fact that you can imagine out a reason why evolution is wrong or neuroscience is bunk does not actually make science. You’re going to have to actually do the heavy lifting, learn differential equations, cell biology, quantitative chemistry, what-have-you.
Oh and then just having a PhD does not a scientist make: You have to then actually, y’know, *do science*. And then publish it. And writing a column in *First Things* doesn’t count, I’m afraid.
Anyway, the upshot: If Christians aren’t “heard” in science, it is not because they are Christians.
As an a none, and daily reader of IM, a number of the comments give me hope for the future. It is nice to see such positive comments coming from a christian blog. I know great christains are out there and I am friends with a number of seminarians and ministers in my area. They are the ones that like to talk about religion and can hold a decent conversation about it.
One thing seems to be a misconception. Wolf Paul wrote:
“Increasingly non-religious folk will consider that harrassment and a violation of their right to avoid public demonstrations of religion for their children.”
I do not know of any non-religious person that thinks they have a right to avoid religious demonstrations done by private people or groups. We may not take them seriously or snicker or ask them to leave us alone. What we do have issue with is when the instruments of the state are used to do it or actively support it. I think christians(not all)have become used to a level of privilelge and deferance in society, and when that is taken away it is thought to be persecuted. To be treated the same in society as a Jew or Muslim or Scientologist or Amish or atheist is hard to adjust to if you are used to having everything your way.
I know that wishes don’t carry much value . . . but some days, I wish there could be another Noah-event. I’m not talking about a real flood, with millions drowning etc. But a philosophical-religious purging, where the whole landscape would be reduced to a-religious agnostics. Then, when the dust clears, or the water is gone (depending on the metaphor) that Jesus (deprived from all His cultural baggage) is re-introduced in all his purity.
I agree, I would much rather talk to an atheist, introducing Jesus, (not a zealous atheist but an honest atheist) than someone who is religious.
“When atheists wrote me during my fifteen minutes of fame last month, they were divided between reasonable people commending me and hate-filled scary people talking about herding all religious people into camps and “getting rid†of us.”
As an atheist, let me condemn any such idiocy emanating from my own side.
Having done that, let me remind you that there are a number of extremists on your own side who believe that it’s right and proper that we get sent to a torture and death camp. That camp they call “Hell”.
Will you distance yourself from them?
Being the Body of Christ, we as followers of Jesus must have others see us acting out our words without telling others what to do.
Do you want others to change their minds because they were coerced and told what is right or wrong, or would you like someone to seek and find Christ for themselves because you showed them what love is all about.
His Holy Nation needs to wake up and love one another.
@Sue Christianity is the ugliest religion on earth, with the ugliest people. We have smeared God’s name into the dirt throughout the world with our insistence on our own and our religion’s power and influence and the seats at the political tables. That quote from Bush made me want to hurl. Disgusting. Completely and utterly disgusting.
Well, I don’t know about that. Between the truly horrific elements of Western Christianity today, Islamic Fundamentalist militants and Jewish Israelis with a fanatically blind hatred for Palestinians and Muslims alike, Christianity certainly doesn’t hold a monopoly on ugliness (just as how I’d argue it doesn’t hold a monopoly on morality).
The issue is what are we going to do about it. Amongst all of the ugliness out there, *someone*’s got to take stand against it and start trying to unconditionally love people as Christ did. Why not us?
@Wolf This is increasingly the problem faced by Christians: those who disagree with us, while claiming to be tolerant because they are not trying to convert us to their view, are in reality intolerant because they do not want us to share our faith or voice our convictions.
I take serious exception to that because I think that’s a fair thing to feel. I feel that myself because I’ve been the target of aggressive evangelism from Calvinists and Mormons, and it sucks when I have to deal with people who only want to know me because they either want me to be another notch on their Bible or they have a bone to pick with Rome and get a kick out of demeaning someone else’s Christianity. When I’m walking down the street, travelling on a bus, or going to school or visit my local government representative I want to do so and not feel like I’m getting someone’s religious beliefs crammed down my throat.
And that’s what you call their “intolerance” is really all about – sorry to you or anyone else, but I firmly believe that Christians (or Muslims, etc.) do not have any kind of sacred right to get in the faces of other people and cram their religion down other people’s throats. *That* is what people don’t like. I know a lot of atheists, agnostics and other various non-Christians and they’re totally fine with me being a Christian. I know them well enough to understand that if I started trying to push Christianity on them, they’d get really upset, really quickly. That’s not “intolerance”, that’s feeling angry when you realize that someone doesn’t have any respect for you as a human being simply because you don’t read their version of the Bible, go to their church, or buy into their creeed.
With all due respect, I think that statement displays a sincere misunderstanding of what people on the “other side” see in us Christians. They see Christians as hypocritical people who are more interested in self-aggrandizing and morally getting on their high horse and preaching to puff up their egos than actually spreading a message of meaningfulness that is relevant to this modern life — and in my experience, more often than not that’s correct.
The problem isn’t “intolerance” from people outside Christianity – it’s a lot of things: it’s simple lack of respect for anyone outside of our little spiritual bubble…it’s a lack of willingness to earnestly put ourselves in their place, and a refusal to listen to what they have to say. Finally, it’s a refusal of our own, our of stubborn vanity to see that we’re not morally superior to anyone or morally blameless because we’re Christians.
“There is an unavoidable flash point between Christians and atheists in that Christians have an inherent requirement to share their faith while atheists, even if not militant like Dawkins and Co, usually have an inherent resentment of being evangelized.â€
In my experience the most effective sharing of faith, the sharer never realized their faith had been shared.
Thinking back, the people who most profoundly witnessed their faith to me, not once preached it. They had no idea of their impact.
- A neighbor who brought over a meal for our family when I was too sick to cook.
- A father who reached out to comfort his son’s classmates after the death of his own son. This made a powerful impression because this man’s faith was genuine. Every action was a witness.
- A college student who befriended my husband when he moved across the county for grad school. He didn’t covert my husband but he certainly impacted his life, and his view of Christians.
- Christian kids that offered friendship to our son, even though he didn’t go to their church. Christian students can live their faith in every school in this country, every single day.
Really, it doesn’t have to be a flashpoint. It can be a spark that ignites something in the heart. But you may never know it.
From the tenor of many of the comments here, I think folks here might really enjoy and profit from the recently published “American Babylon: Notes of a Christian Exile,” the final book by Richard John Neuhaus. It grapples meaningfully (and charitably) with a lot of these same questions (including questions about atheism, citizenship, and the role of Christians in public life). I’m about halfway through, and it’s fantastic so far.
If I might make a humble book recommendation, Charles Taylor’s “A Secular Age” is excellent. I think a lot of readers here would enjoy it. It analyzes the foundational elements of our society that make secularism a viable option for a considerable portion of the population. The most fascinating part is how so much of modern religion (the last 500 years) has been fuel for the movement towards secularity. Especially “traditional” Counter-Reformation Catholicism but also puritanism, evangelicalism, etc… It is very interesting to look at secularity as a positive, substantial thing, rather than mere irreligion.
Phil
I live in a very secular state (California) and have my whole life. I’m an adult-convert to Christianity. My family growing up could be considered “cultural Christians” — if that, seeing we never stepped foot in a church, read a Bible, or really made any acknowledgements of faith.
My experience is that there is a lot of hostility from non-believers and even “cultural Christians” against those who have a deeper faith like myself. The hostility isn’t personal — but generalized. In fact, I usually get the “well not you, but those other Christians…” when someone accidentally makes a negative comment in front of me.
But it’s true that it goes both ways. I know people from church or are just a hostile towards the non-religious.
I think Michael is right. both feel attacked by the extremists on each side and then get defensive. If your images of the other side are Dawkins and Fred Phelps, then of course you’re going to be hostile.
“I’m concerned that the atheist community will find the temptation for “cultural revenge to be strong. I won’t be surprised at all if we’re about to enter a period where Christians will find a vocal, powerful minority of empowered atheists prepared to harass and even persecute.”
I find this somewhat disturbing, this concern assumes some sort of cohesion in the atheist community beyond what actually exists. Individual atheists will do what individuals might, but the “herding cats” allegory is accurate as far as organizing atheists are concerned. People who don’t see a need to participate in a church community don’t tend to be joiners in other communities. Even my use of the word community is a misnomer, the only thing we share is a negative. We don’t believe in the existence of a deity or deities. The recent emergence of atheist voices was in response to the excesses of the religious fanaticism that we see every day in the United States. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and their followers created Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and theirs. If, or when, Christianity recedes from the foreground of American public thought, I think you’ll find that atheism as a movement will as well.
In reading through the rest of the comments, I can’t help but wonder how much of the compulsion towards aggressive evangelism, debate, and the culture war in general comes from a desire to silence/supress our own doubts on both sides of the discussion?
“Jewish Israelis with a fanatically blind hatred for Palestinians and Muslims alike”
This is what’s called moral equivalence. Forget the fact that many Arabs and Muslims work, vote and live in peace inside Israel while no Jew can safely set foot inside Gaza or the West Bank or Syria, Saudi Arabia etc. All of which has zero to do with the topic except proving the point that Christians are pretty good at giving offense.
“I’m somewhat curious, from my atheist friends out there, how the religious are viewed– i.e. are Christians and Muslims and Mormons and Wiccans and (your team here) all looked at kinda the same, or do you see the differences and nuances that the religous see? Or, put another way, do atheists paint with a broad brush the way that a lot of religious people do? I ask here because, in my little corner of America, actual atheists are more scarce than a healthy 401(k); I don’t think I know a single one that I could ask the question.â€
I can tell you what I thought (back then).
Of course I knew about the differences in belief. But I was arrogant. To my mind anyone who relied on faith was the same in that they were too weak or too ignorant to live without faith. Christian, Wicca, Muslim, all the same in that they all needed to believe something. For the most part I kept these thoughts to myself, but this was how I viewed faith of every flavor.
I suppose this is why the people who truly lived their faith made such an impression. Observing genuine faith challenged those assumptions.
*…and from there to the Phoenician sacrifice altars and from there to the Druidic sacrifice altars–that’s human sacrifice.*
I thought, archaeologically speaking, that the jury was still out about whether the Phoenicians did human sacrifice? Yes, a graveyard of hundreds of children’s bones was found near Acre, Lebanon–but it was determined that they’d been buried over several centuries and easily matched up with best-guess estimates of child mortality in the iron age. It could easily have been the practice to bury stillborn children all together in one particular place (i.e. as in *Grapes of Wrath* “An old man may be buried in a potter’s field, but a child who dies must have a good burial, for he has had nothing else of life.”)
Herodotus is our sole source about Phoenician “child-sacrifice” and, given that he probably never left his home town, we’re learning to trust him less and less as a knowledgeable authority. I.e. his description of supposed religious “orgies” of the Canaanites and the “temple prostitutes” of the Babylonians, have all been determined be little more than titillating fabrications.
*…while no Jew can safely set foot inside Gaza or the West Bank or Syria, Saudi Arabia etc.*
*Raises hand*: I am a Jew who has more than safely set foot in Syria. It’s a beautiful country with many ancient historical sites and filled with welcoming, fair-minded people who’ve been very poorly served by their government(s).
Great post IM, as an Atheist who occasionally posts here, I know I can be fairly annoying and preachy sometimes. Which is pretty ironic when I realize how much I hate being preached too.
Sometimes I start to feel bitter when I remember the fear and guilt that was grinded into me when I was a young Catholic. I also get angry when I feel others are trying to push their moral agenda onto me through politics. Although I will continue to fight against that, there is no need for me to be standoffish in regards to people’s faiths. I think some bearded guy talked a lot about that 2000 years ago
I really just wished that religous folk understood that we are not without morals. Atheists have different reasons for basing their morals, but in my case I do believe in something greater then myself. I believe in six billion human beings, and if I behave amorally it only puts up walls between us.
As to how I, as an Atheist, view faith: it has been said many different ways, but it boils down to this. “We are all Atheists about most gods, I just take it one god further. When you see why you reject other gods, you can see why I reject yours” I do not mean that in an insulting way, but I just reject the idea of a personal all powerful being based on my observations .
PS. IM, you should check out Friendly Atheists page today, he has a video of a discussion (not a debate) between him and a Pastor. Interesting stuff, and definitely way more productive then an actual debate. http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/04/07/my-non-debate-with-a-christian-pastor-reloaded/