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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 01:02:08: Rocks Crying Out</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: dumb ox</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-185002</link>
		<dc:creator>dumb ox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-185002</guid>
		<description>Pardon me for possibly beating a dead horse, but I heard another broadcast today on this subject.  In this broadcast, Osteen's preaching was compared to the theme of the children's story, "The Little Engine that Could":  I think I can, I think I can.  For me, this drew me back to  John Bunyan's "The Pilgrim's Progress", where Christian is lured by Worldly-Wiseman to climb the hill (Mount Sinai) to Mr. Legality's house.  The higher he climbed, the heavier his burden became.  This is true of today's self-help teachers:  the harder one tries to become positive and good, the more one will realize how much he or she fails.    The only hope is for Someone to remove the burden.  For Christian, it was removed at the foot of the cross.

There is another important lesson that Bunyan can teach us about this issue.  In "Grace Abounding", Bunyan credits God for protecting him from the questionable teachers of his day.  If you have not fallen under Osteen's spell,
thank God for mercifully protecting you.  Christ alone is our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption "...that, according as it is written, 'He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord'" - I Corinthians 1:30 (WEB).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pardon me for possibly beating a dead horse, but I heard another broadcast today on this subject.  In this broadcast, Osteen&#8217;s preaching was compared to the theme of the children&#8217;s story, &#8220;The Little Engine that Could&#8221;:  I think I can, I think I can.  For me, this drew me back to  John Bunyan&#8217;s &#8220;The Pilgrim&#8217;s Progress&#8221;, where Christian is lured by Worldly-Wiseman to climb the hill (Mount Sinai) to Mr. Legality&#8217;s house.  The higher he climbed, the heavier his burden became.  This is true of today&#8217;s self-help teachers:  the harder one tries to become positive and good, the more one will realize how much he or she fails.    The only hope is for Someone to remove the burden.  For Christian, it was removed at the foot of the cross.</p>
<p>There is another important lesson that Bunyan can teach us about this issue.  In &#8220;Grace Abounding&#8221;, Bunyan credits God for protecting him from the questionable teachers of his day.  If you have not fallen under Osteen&#8217;s spell,<br />
thank God for mercifully protecting you.  Christ alone is our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption &#8220;&#8230;that, according as it is written, &#8216;He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord&#8217;&#8221; - <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Corinthians+1%3A30" title="ESV 1Corinthians 1:30" class="bibleref">I Corinthians 1:30</a> (WEB).</p>
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		<title>By: Caleb Barrett</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-182811</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Barrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-182811</guid>
		<description>This doesn't really answer the question posed by G Baker, because it isn't something Osteen can do.  And my answer is different from prior answers in that Osteen would stay where he is.

If he isn't a true follower of Christ, I would love for the Holy Spirit to grant him faith and give him the new birth.  If he truly is a Christian, then I would love to see personal revival -- a work of the Spirit where he sees God's holiness and his own sin and Christ's person and work as if for the first time and he is changed by it.

I would love to see these types of changes because that would change who he is and what he teaches completely.  At that point he would be studying the Scriptures in order to teach faithfully, he would be loving God and loving others and looking forward to seeing Jesus face-to-face while seeking holiness here in this life.  His preaching would change drastically and his 'ministry' would become one seemingly for the first time.  All of this would impact a HUGE number of people with the gospel.  I would expect that number to drop significantly if that happened, but at that point Osteen wouldn't care.  Yes he wouldn't be a perfect pastor, but he would be one that is being conformed into the image of Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This doesn&#8217;t really answer the question posed by G Baker, because it isn&#8217;t something Osteen can do.  And my answer is different from prior answers in that Osteen would stay where he is.</p>
<p>If he isn&#8217;t a true follower of Christ, I would love for the Holy Spirit to grant him faith and give him the new birth.  If he truly is a Christian, then I would love to see personal revival &#8212; a work of the Spirit where he sees God&#8217;s holiness and his own sin and Christ&#8217;s person and work as if for the first time and he is changed by it.</p>
<p>I would love to see these types of changes because that would change who he is and what he teaches completely.  At that point he would be studying the Scriptures in order to teach faithfully, he would be loving God and loving others and looking forward to seeing Jesus face-to-face while seeking holiness here in this life.  His preaching would change drastically and his &#8216;ministry&#8217; would become one seemingly for the first time.  All of this would impact a HUGE number of people with the gospel.  I would expect that number to drop significantly if that happened, but at that point Osteen wouldn&#8217;t care.  Yes he wouldn&#8217;t be a perfect pastor, but he would be one that is being conformed into the image of Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-182762</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-182762</guid>
		<description>IMonk, what's the male-to-female proportion of the Osteen supporters harassing you?  From prior postings, I suspect it's mostly female.

Something about Osteen brings out the "SQUEEEEE! KAWAII!" reaction in a lot of women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMonk, what&#8217;s the male-to-female proportion of the Osteen supporters harassing you?  From prior postings, I suspect it&#8217;s mostly female.</p>
<p>Something about Osteen brings out the &#8220;SQUEEEEE! KAWAII!&#8221; reaction in a lot of women.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180849</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180849</guid>
		<description>Oops, I forgot the URL:

http://lifehacker.com/340292/your-favorite-self-improvement-book</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, I forgot the URL:</p>
<p><a href="http://lifehacker.com/340292/your-favorite-self-improvement-book" rel="nofollow">http://lifehacker.com/340292/your-favorite-self-improvement-book</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180848</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180848</guid>
		<description>You might find it interesting that one of the posters at the blog Lifehacker.com, which usually offers tips to us technogeeks, chose Osteen's "Become a Better You" as her favourite self-help book. I was surprised when I saw this – quite a coincidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might find it interesting that one of the posters at the blog Lifehacker.com, which usually offers tips to us technogeeks, chose Osteen&#8217;s &#8220;Become a Better You&#8221; as her favourite self-help book. I was surprised when I saw this – quite a coincidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Mad Minerva</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180251</link>
		<dc:creator>Mad Minerva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180251</guid>
		<description>What would I have Osteen do?  I think Michael and Heather already said it.  

I would add that if Osteen does indeed want to continue as a self-help guru, then let him go and do that -- but stop calling it "Christian" and stop calling it a "ministry," because what he is doing is neither.  Or let him go into (but never lead) an actual ministry that really does try to help others substantively; there are plenty of Christian ministries and charities that labor diligently, without fame or attention or a big operating budget.

Also, I'd suggest that Osteen start getting educated, as Michael said -- both in terms of mentoring and, I think, in terms of theology, history, and all those other things that get steamrollered in the great drive for materialistic gain.

One more thing, since I'm evil.  I'd make him go camping alone for a few weeks, away from all the trimmings and trappings of his empire, all that shiny stuff and public attention.  Just him, a tent, some supplies, and his Bible -- and the requirement that he actually read it.  Cover to cover.  More than once.  Preferably in the Greek.  (OK, I'm kidding about that last bit.  Sort of.)

(And Dan, don't get me started on Hinn!  ;-)  )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would I have Osteen do?  I think Michael and Heather already said it.  </p>
<p>I would add that if Osteen does indeed want to continue as a self-help guru, then let him go and do that &#8212; but stop calling it &#8220;Christian&#8221; and stop calling it a &#8220;ministry,&#8221; because what he is doing is neither.  Or let him go into (but never lead) an actual ministry that really does try to help others substantively; there are plenty of Christian ministries and charities that labor diligently, without fame or attention or a big operating budget.</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;d suggest that Osteen start getting educated, as Michael said &#8212; both in terms of mentoring and, I think, in terms of theology, history, and all those other things that get steamrollered in the great drive for materialistic gain.</p>
<p>One more thing, since I&#8217;m evil.  I&#8217;d make him go camping alone for a few weeks, away from all the trimmings and trappings of his empire, all that shiny stuff and public attention.  Just him, a tent, some supplies, and his Bible &#8212; and the requirement that he actually read it.  Cover to cover.  More than once.  Preferably in the Greek.  (OK, I&#8217;m kidding about that last bit.  Sort of.)</p>
<p>(And Dan, don&#8217;t get me started on Hinn!  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
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		<title>By: dan macdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180225</link>
		<dc:creator>dan macdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180225</guid>
		<description>I spoke out against Osteen and Hinn before Christmas at a major student meeting on a major university here. Almost nobody had a clue about who Osteen was. Ah, the small mercies of living in Canada!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spoke out against Osteen and Hinn before Christmas at a major student meeting on a major university here. Almost nobody had a clue about who Osteen was. Ah, the small mercies of living in Canada!</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180037</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 03:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180037</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Leave the ministry.

Go find out what it means to be a Christian from some people who are attempting to live like followers of Jesus.

Pursue some spiritual formation from reliable mentors. &lt;/i&gt;

Exactly!

I really want to add "Stop visiting the dentist, just for a month or two" but that wouldn't be constructive.

You know what I would love to see?  Joel Osteen in his perfect suit with his perfect face, reading his book "Your Best Life Now" aloud to a room full of the downtrodden and homeless.  That might make him think for just a moment about what he's saying.  I honestly think he's not being malicious.  He just &lt;i&gt;doesn't get it&lt;/i&gt;.  He doesn't need to be punished, he needs to see what he's doing for what it really is.

Joel?  I'm sure you're reading, because everybody who's anybody reads iMonk ;-), just stop for a minute, walk away from the flashy cars and the mansion, and spend a minute with God, who became flesh for us, who walked around for three years as a homeless man, who was spat at, bruised and battered for your sins, and hung on a cross, alone, to die.  Then tell me that stuff you walked away from makes any difference to a person whatsoever.  Our Best Life Now is solely comprised of loving that man who died on a cross and doing our best to be like him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Leave the ministry.</p>
<p>Go find out what it means to be a Christian from some people who are attempting to live like followers of Jesus.</p>
<p>Pursue some spiritual formation from reliable mentors. </i></p>
<p>Exactly!</p>
<p>I really want to add &#8220;Stop visiting the dentist, just for a month or two&#8221; but that wouldn&#8217;t be constructive.</p>
<p>You know what I would love to see?  Joel Osteen in his perfect suit with his perfect face, reading his book &#8220;Your Best Life Now&#8221; aloud to a room full of the downtrodden and homeless.  That might make him think for just a moment about what he&#8217;s saying.  I honestly think he&#8217;s not being malicious.  He just <i>doesn&#8217;t get it</i>.  He doesn&#8217;t need to be punished, he needs to see what he&#8217;s doing for what it really is.</p>
<p>Joel?  I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re reading, because everybody who&#8217;s anybody reads iMonk ;-), just stop for a minute, walk away from the flashy cars and the mansion, and spend a minute with God, who became flesh for us, who walked around for three years as a homeless man, who was spat at, bruised and battered for your sins, and hung on a cross, alone, to die.  Then tell me that stuff you walked away from makes any difference to a person whatsoever.  Our Best Life Now is solely comprised of loving that man who died on a cross and doing our best to be like him.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180028</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 02:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180028</guid>
		<description>Leave the ministry.

Go find out what it means to be a Christian from some people who are attempting to live like followers of Jesus.

Pursue some spiritual formation from reliable mentors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leave the ministry.</p>
<p>Go find out what it means to be a Christian from some people who are attempting to live like followers of Jesus.</p>
<p>Pursue some spiritual formation from reliable mentors.</p>
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		<title>By: G Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180026</link>
		<dc:creator>G Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 02:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010208-rocks-crying-out#comment-180026</guid>
		<description>The following questions are for Michael and everyone else who doesn't like Joel Osteen.

What is it you wouild like to see Joel Osteen do or what would you like to see happen to Joel Osteen that would satisfy your sense of rightness and fairness?

What specifically would Joel Osteen have to do to make him okay in your sight?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The following questions are for Michael and everyone else who doesn&#8217;t like Joel Osteen.</p>
<p>What is it you wouild like to see Joel Osteen do or what would you like to see happen to Joel Osteen that would satisfy your sense of rightness and fairness?</p>
<p>What specifically would Joel Osteen have to do to make him okay in your sight?</p>
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