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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 01:01:08: Losing the Treasure of a Christ-Centered Assurance of Salvation</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-180735</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nannykim,

How do we really love the Law as the Psalmist says?  It’s not as many think.  It’s tricky because we are using the term “law” in two ways.  That’s the distinction I’m making, the Law, the REAL Law in as much as it reflects the will and heart of God, that altruistic selfless love He shows us is GOOD and WONDERFUL, but when the Law becomes that which determines my relationship toward God, ‘if I do this, He will love me, justify me, etc…” (whether explicitly stated or implied) THAT is Satanic for the Devil has, as Luther said, turned everything upside down.  Turning God’s Love (selfless love, loving the unlovable/unattractive, true godly Love WHO HE IS) into selfish love that arises from its object.  THAT is to make an idol of God and in the end to NOT have THE GOD.  We fell from reflecting that LOVE, the true will/heart of God.  THAT love (selfless love, loving the unlovable/unattractive, true godly Love WHO HE IS) is the same love that begets the Gospel and THAT Love (= real Law = WHO HE IS) is also the same love that invades and presses into the Satanic “love” (self love), the fallen love man is in bondage to UNDER the Law that is condemned.

This is why (and HOW) we love the Law as the Psalmist says, the real Law (selfless love, loving the unlovable/unattractive, true godly Love WHO HE IS), through the Gospel.  The Gospel brings the “switch” or reorientation as it should be so that we actually DO love the Law.  For example the first commandment, “I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of bondage, you shall have no other gods in front of Me.” (See why did Jesus tell through Peter Satan ‘get behind me’!).  Heard through fallen selflove ears that becomes a way and struggle to be in the pleasure of God, as if to “move” Him, worship is inverted from earth to heaven.  That is how out of a command from Scripture we 1. hone an idol of the real God, 2. develop false worship.  Yet, the same would say, “see I like the Psalmist ‘love the law of God’”.  But such a person is deceived and no more really loves the REAL Law, nor God, though he/she says so, than the speed limit laws when rushed.  But through the Gospel, this command becomes a WONDERFUL Law and is in reality “no law at all”.  As Luther says the Law really desires to NOT BE LAW to us, but we IN the WILL of God (selfless love, loving the unlovable/unattractive, true godly Love WHO HE IS) itself.  To the one so in via Christ this “Law”, the first command, then becomes a wonderful friend and ally if you will, you REALL LOVE IT.  Because one is not using it inverted, earth to heaven, and honing an idol of God and of the real law making it false.  Rather worship is set right, heaven to earth, receiving from God HIS LOVE which IS HIS LAW and to let HIM BE God to us and we the creature, once again, to HIM (our reflexive act to the Gospel if you will).  Then this first command becomes a MIGHTY weapon against flesh, the world and Satan.  E.g. if the devil and the flesh plague you with thoughts of “am I elect, predestine and alike” one can now use the sword of the Spirit and quote this Law aright to flesh and the devil and the world and say, “I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of bondage, you shall have no other gods in front of Me.”  And say to the flesh, devil and world:  I am not to become anxious about myself, do not be anxious Jesus says, especially about my salvation for Jesus is the revelation of God’s WILL and HEART toward me in Word and Sacraments.  And if I do become this way it is a sure sign it is flesh and/or the devil tempting me to be anxious for they wish me to doubt God and become my own god to myself and try to peer into the deep majesty of God as if to see because I doubt Him and some how save myself by finding by some other way election or predestination for myself excepting through the Cross by Word and Sacrament (God’s will to me).  And the first command CLEARLY says, devil and flesh, “I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of bondage, you shall have no other gods in front of Me.  Thus, HE is my God and not me be gone, the Lord rebuke you, get behind Christ.”

See how the Law is WONDERFUL through the Gospel, see how we LOVE IT.  And we love it because it serves the Gospel serving to kill our self willed works toward heaven so that we seek out the promise of God all the MORE and TRUST HIM boldly.  THIS is to truly love God and the Law, this IS the cry behind the Psalmist.  This is the reflexive thanksgiving and love of the Law that rises up from our redeemed hearts in true love and thanksgiving.  This is why the Psalmist says, “…I delight in and love Thy Law…”  But, again, as I said before in the previous post, it comes through the Gospel…even the command to “delight in the Lord” and NOT as a naked command which is merely to return to fallen love.

Yours truly,

Larry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nannykim,</p>
<p>How do we really love the Law as the Psalmist says?  It’s not as many think.  It’s tricky because we are using the term “law” in two ways.  That’s the distinction I’m making, the Law, the REAL Law in as much as it reflects the will and heart of God, that altruistic selfless love He shows us is GOOD and WONDERFUL, but when the Law becomes that which determines my relationship toward God, ‘if I do this, He will love me, justify me, etc…” (whether explicitly stated or implied) THAT is Satanic for the Devil has, as Luther said, turned everything upside down.  Turning God’s Love (selfless love, loving the unlovable/unattractive, true godly Love WHO HE IS) into selfish love that arises from its object.  THAT is to make an idol of God and in the end to NOT have THE GOD.  We fell from reflecting that LOVE, the true will/heart of God.  THAT love (selfless love, loving the unlovable/unattractive, true godly Love WHO HE IS) is the same love that begets the Gospel and THAT Love (= real Law = WHO HE IS) is also the same love that invades and presses into the Satanic “love” (self love), the fallen love man is in bondage to UNDER the Law that is condemned.</p>
<p>This is why (and HOW) we love the Law as the Psalmist says, the real Law (selfless love, loving the unlovable/unattractive, true godly Love WHO HE IS), through the Gospel.  The Gospel brings the “switch” or reorientation as it should be so that we actually DO love the Law.  For example the first commandment, “I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of bondage, you shall have no other gods in front of Me.” (See why did Jesus tell through Peter Satan ‘get behind me’!).  Heard through fallen selflove ears that becomes a way and struggle to be in the pleasure of God, as if to “move” Him, worship is inverted from earth to heaven.  That is how out of a command from Scripture we 1. hone an idol of the real God, 2. develop false worship.  Yet, the same would say, “see I like the Psalmist ‘love the law of God’”.  But such a person is deceived and no more really loves the REAL Law, nor God, though he/she says so, than the speed limit laws when rushed.  But through the Gospel, this command becomes a WONDERFUL Law and is in reality “no law at all”.  As Luther says the Law really desires to NOT BE LAW to us, but we IN the WILL of God (selfless love, loving the unlovable/unattractive, true godly Love WHO HE IS) itself.  To the one so in via Christ this “Law”, the first command, then becomes a wonderful friend and ally if you will, you REALL LOVE IT.  Because one is not using it inverted, earth to heaven, and honing an idol of God and of the real law making it false.  Rather worship is set right, heaven to earth, receiving from God HIS LOVE which IS HIS LAW and to let HIM BE God to us and we the creature, once again, to HIM (our reflexive act to the Gospel if you will).  Then this first command becomes a MIGHTY weapon against flesh, the world and Satan.  E.g. if the devil and the flesh plague you with thoughts of “am I elect, predestine and alike” one can now use the sword of the Spirit and quote this Law aright to flesh and the devil and the world and say, “I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of bondage, you shall have no other gods in front of Me.”  And say to the flesh, devil and world:  I am not to become anxious about myself, do not be anxious Jesus says, especially about my salvation for Jesus is the revelation of God’s WILL and HEART toward me in Word and Sacraments.  And if I do become this way it is a sure sign it is flesh and/or the devil tempting me to be anxious for they wish me to doubt God and become my own god to myself and try to peer into the deep majesty of God as if to see because I doubt Him and some how save myself by finding by some other way election or predestination for myself excepting through the Cross by Word and Sacrament (God’s will to me).  And the first command CLEARLY says, devil and flesh, “I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of bondage, you shall have no other gods in front of Me.  Thus, HE is my God and not me be gone, the Lord rebuke you, get behind Christ.”</p>
<p>See how the Law is WONDERFUL through the Gospel, see how we LOVE IT.  And we love it because it serves the Gospel serving to kill our self willed works toward heaven so that we seek out the promise of God all the MORE and TRUST HIM boldly.  THIS is to truly love God and the Law, this IS the cry behind the Psalmist.  This is the reflexive thanksgiving and love of the Law that rises up from our redeemed hearts in true love and thanksgiving.  This is why the Psalmist says, “…I delight in and love Thy Law…”  But, again, as I said before in the previous post, it comes through the Gospel…even the command to “delight in the Lord” and NOT as a naked command which is merely to return to fallen love.</p>
<p>Yours truly,</p>
<p>Larry</p>
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		<title>By: nannykim</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-180033</link>
		<dc:creator>nannykim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 03:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-180033</guid>
		<description>Patrick , I see your point.--It was a good point.  I guess with me when I have chosen to live in sin that I know is sin or when I have dealt with besetting sins--I have had constant unsettlement from the Holy Spirit and my conscience. This then has been an affirmation to me of my salvation, because the Spirit of God would not leave me alone. My husband has said the same thing---this is even if we have spent years in these sins (we spent years of being pricked by the Holy Spirit). So I do believe that the Spirit of God gives us that unsettled pricking and this, ironically enough, gives us assurance that we indeed are owned by Him and know Him. 

Larry, the commad to Delight ourselves in the Lord is given in scripture. But I agree that often commands sometimes work negatively in us because of our sinful hearts---just like when you tell a kid not to do something it makes him think about it all the more!!  However, there are times when the commands bring joy. For the first time in my 39 years as a Christian, this year I have at long last come to see the beauty in the law and laws of God---yup, it took me 39 years to see that HEY those laws bring me joy because I finally clearly see that when I follow the commands given by God to me it actually really is for my good.  When I don't follow them or aim to follow them I am suffering the many side effects which obviously are not good ones!! How dumb could I be to take 39 years to see the beauty of them and to agree with Psalm 119!! God loves me and that is why his commands are for my good--duh...that should have been obvious for me.  Yes, sometimes we don't see our fruit, but I guess with me I have always felt His presence even if it is a pricking and unsettling presence. Guess some do not always feel His presence and therefore may struggle more...so trusting those promises of our salvationin brings assurance when we doubt our fruit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick , I see your point.&#8211;It was a good point.  I guess with me when I have chosen to live in sin that I know is sin or when I have dealt with besetting sins&#8211;I have had constant unsettlement from the Holy Spirit and my conscience. This then has been an affirmation to me of my salvation, because the Spirit of God would not leave me alone. My husband has said the same thing&#8212;this is even if we have spent years in these sins (we spent years of being pricked by the Holy Spirit). So I do believe that the Spirit of God gives us that unsettled pricking and this, ironically enough, gives us assurance that we indeed are owned by Him and know Him. </p>
<p>Larry, the commad to Delight ourselves in the Lord is given in scripture. But I agree that often commands sometimes work negatively in us because of our sinful hearts&#8212;just like when you tell a kid not to do something it makes him think about it all the more!!  However, there are times when the commands bring joy. For the first time in my 39 years as a Christian, this year I have at long last come to see the beauty in the law and laws of God&#8212;yup, it took me 39 years to see that HEY those laws bring me joy because I finally clearly see that when I follow the commands given by God to me it actually really is for my good.  When I don&#8217;t follow them or aim to follow them I am suffering the many side effects which obviously are not good ones!! How dumb could I be to take 39 years to see the beauty of them and to agree with <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Psalm+119" title="ESV Psalm 119" class="bibleref">Psalm 119</a>!! God loves me and that is why his commands are for my good&#8211;duh&#8230;that should have been obvious for me.  Yes, sometimes we don&#8217;t see our fruit, but I guess with me I have always felt His presence even if it is a pricking and unsettling presence. Guess some do not always feel His presence and therefore may struggle more&#8230;so trusting those promises of our salvationin brings assurance when we doubt our fruit.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179981</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179981</guid>
		<description>“delight in God”, “be joyful” and all such commands so used are law and lead the despairing deeper into despair and the last thing they are is delighting, joyful and etc…  Dr. Rosenbladt once pulled me out of a DEEP DEEP hole of despair pointing this out, such commands.  He said those that have had this done to them usually ‘get it’ (when its pointed out to be law) immediately because we’ve had it done to us all our life.  He quoted C. S. Lewis to me on this issue that ‘one sure way to make a person NOT be joyful…that way?  Tell him to ‘be joyful’.  Brilliant Law/Gospel distinction.  It hit me like a ton of bricks when I first was shown this and felt like an ever unending burden was removed from my soul.  People tend to take the ‘command’ tact with fruits of the Spirit.

BUT herein lay the great paradox and irony:  When receive the Gospel afresh FOR you in Word or Sacrament and it “registers” with mind and soul, ‘its REALLY REALLY FOR ME’, nothing but joy, happiness, yes even delight in God and etc… arise naturally.  Yet it comes not from a command but from a faith that nakedly passively is receiving Christ.  That’s how the fruits of the Spirit arise, “love, peace, joy…etc…” not from “trying to get or do them” which ironically will lead to works of the flesh at length.  Rather from receiving Christ FOR YOU.  

It’s EXACTLY like Luther said (paraphrasing from memory), “…many speak much and talk much (blow hard – my preferred way of stating it) about faith and good works and know absolutely NOTHING of EITHER…”  And elsewhere, “…I (Luther) am not against good works, I’m trying to show you where they ONLY come from…” (again from memory paraphrased).

That’s the difference in a true theologian of the Cross versus a theologian of glory, or at least a one with confounding theologian of glory tendencies.

Larry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“delight in God”, “be joyful” and all such commands so used are law and lead the despairing deeper into despair and the last thing they are is delighting, joyful and etc…  Dr. Rosenbladt once pulled me out of a DEEP DEEP hole of despair pointing this out, such commands.  He said those that have had this done to them usually ‘get it’ (when its pointed out to be law) immediately because we’ve had it done to us all our life.  He quoted C. S. Lewis to me on this issue that ‘one sure way to make a person NOT be joyful…that way?  Tell him to ‘be joyful’.  Brilliant Law/Gospel distinction.  It hit me like a ton of bricks when I first was shown this and felt like an ever unending burden was removed from my soul.  People tend to take the ‘command’ tact with fruits of the Spirit.</p>
<p>BUT herein lay the great paradox and irony:  When receive the Gospel afresh FOR you in Word or Sacrament and it “registers” with mind and soul, ‘its REALLY REALLY FOR ME’, nothing but joy, happiness, yes even delight in God and etc… arise naturally.  Yet it comes not from a command but from a faith that nakedly passively is receiving Christ.  That’s how the fruits of the Spirit arise, “love, peace, joy…etc…” not from “trying to get or do them” which ironically will lead to works of the flesh at length.  Rather from receiving Christ FOR YOU.  </p>
<p>It’s EXACTLY like Luther said (paraphrasing from memory), “…many speak much and talk much (blow hard – my preferred way of stating it) about faith and good works and know absolutely NOTHING of EITHER…”  And elsewhere, “…I (Luther) am not against good works, I’m trying to show you where they ONLY come from…” (again from memory paraphrased).</p>
<p>That’s the difference in a true theologian of the Cross versus a theologian of glory, or at least a one with confounding theologian of glory tendencies.</p>
<p>Larry</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179888</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179888</guid>
		<description>Michael: Thank you for the link to the archived ACE article by Dr. Rosenbladt.  That was a much-needed breath of fresh, rarefied air.  God bless you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael: Thank you for the link to the archived ACE article by Dr. Rosenbladt.  That was a much-needed breath of fresh, rarefied air.  God bless you.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike D'Virgilio</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179877</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike D'Virgilio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179877</guid>
		<description>Great discussion, especially because I feel like such a pathetic Christian. But a funny thing happened way back when I was a "spiritual giant". I felt just as unworthy and just as pathetic. No matter how many bible verses I memorized or how often I prayed sin just wouldn't let go. It's a great irony of the grace and mercy of God that the more fruit we see in our lives, when we think we're starting to get the hang of this thing, that our pride becomes worse than the sin we avoid. Or maybe that's why we get knocked on our keister again, to remind us where our salvation lies. "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner". That's why I became a non-RC in the first place. Hell scared the Hell out of me, and why the Reformed understanding of salvation won me over some years later.

In these discussions it is often brought up that the early church was the more authentic version of the faith than what came later, i.e. protestantism. I'm reading a very interesting book by Paul Johnson, one of the great living historians, called "A History of Christianity". He makes a very convincing case that the early church, from Acts on, was a mess. Jesus didn't leave his followers a whole lot to go on, especially when they realized that the second coming wasn't quite as near as they had hoped. The fighting, the disagreements, the curious motivations, makes our day seem positively like one big group hug. For me, I think the Reformers were on to something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion, especially because I feel like such a pathetic Christian. But a funny thing happened way back when I was a &#8220;spiritual giant&#8221;. I felt just as unworthy and just as pathetic. No matter how many bible verses I memorized or how often I prayed sin just wouldn&#8217;t let go. It&#8217;s a great irony of the grace and mercy of God that the more fruit we see in our lives, when we think we&#8217;re starting to get the hang of this thing, that our pride becomes worse than the sin we avoid. Or maybe that&#8217;s why we get knocked on our keister again, to remind us where our salvation lies. &#8220;Lord have mercy on me, a sinner&#8221;. That&#8217;s why I became a non-RC in the first place. Hell scared the Hell out of me, and why the Reformed understanding of salvation won me over some years later.</p>
<p>In these discussions it is often brought up that the early church was the more authentic version of the faith than what came later, i.e. protestantism. I&#8217;m reading a very interesting book by Paul Johnson, one of the great living historians, called &#8220;A History of Christianity&#8221;. He makes a very convincing case that the early church, from Acts on, was a mess. Jesus didn&#8217;t leave his followers a whole lot to go on, especially when they realized that the second coming wasn&#8217;t quite as near as they had hoped. The fighting, the disagreements, the curious motivations, makes our day seem positively like one big group hug. For me, I think the Reformers were on to something.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Kyle</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179756</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179756</guid>
		<description>Phil, nannykim,

  What Michael is talking about is not the false assurance of the unbeliever, but the doubt and despair of the true believer, who while trying to hammer out the implications of his or her faith, is confronted with the enormity of their sin. How much 'fruit' is needed to be really sure you are 'in'? Are you then sure the works were true fruit? Maybe they were the product of your selfish heart or subtle attempts to validate your faith. If that is the case, do they count as fruit of the Spirit?  What if you are dealing with a besetting sin? That nagging doubt about God's word, the resentment that burns like a low grade fever against your boss, that funny feeling you get when you look at that smoking hot woman(or guy) at school. The Word of God is clear about sin- in for a penny, in for a pound.  God fordid that you actually commit a flagrant sin(and then secretly like it), what then?
  Furthermore, to point people, both believer and unbeliever, back to Christ and His finished work will result in salvation. To point an unbeliever to his lack of fruit will cause him to trust his works and not Christ. This is also a fantastic way to breed hypocrites and pharisees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, nannykim,</p>
<p>  What Michael is talking about is not the false assurance of the unbeliever, but the doubt and despair of the true believer, who while trying to hammer out the implications of his or her faith, is confronted with the enormity of their sin. How much &#8216;fruit&#8217; is needed to be really sure you are &#8216;in&#8217;? Are you then sure the works were true fruit? Maybe they were the product of your selfish heart or subtle attempts to validate your faith. If that is the case, do they count as fruit of the Spirit?  What if you are dealing with a besetting sin? That nagging doubt about God&#8217;s word, the resentment that burns like a low grade fever against your boss, that funny feeling you get when you look at that smoking hot woman(or guy) at school. The Word of God is clear about sin- in for a penny, in for a pound.  God fordid that you actually commit a flagrant sin(and then secretly like it), what then?<br />
  Furthermore, to point people, both believer and unbeliever, back to Christ and His finished work will result in salvation. To point an unbeliever to his lack of fruit will cause him to trust his works and not Christ. This is also a fantastic way to breed hypocrites and pharisees.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Smoke</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179717</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Smoke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179717</guid>
		<description>Michael, assurance is one area where I differ with you.  You seem to operate with this common assumption that all who seek assurance should be assured; that all who seek assurance truly are Christians and merely need to become sure of that fact.  I disagree.  For example, you wrote, "The 'best evidence' is 'growth' in 'love' and 'fruit.' Being more 'like Jesus.' Good grief. Can anyone spell 'despair?'"  So what if that causes despair?  Maybe temporary despair is the correct response, and that would help drive someone to Christ - to truly believe, and therefore truly follow Him, and therefore have some assurance.  Perhaps then we'd see some of the reforms which we both desire!  The pastoral task is not like that of the pop psychologist - it is not to just make everyone feel better.  Before we ask how we can make a person feel sure, we must ask if we &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; make that person feel sure.  The paramount concern is not a person's psychological state, but their spiritual state.  It is a bleak tragedy to give someone a false and temporary happiness at the expense of eternal happiness - that is, to give false assurance, and thereby keep people from finding salvation.

You can have &lt;i&gt;sola fide&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;sola Christus&lt;/i&gt; with your interpretation - I'll take &lt;a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:3-6&#38;version=49" rel="nofollow"&gt;1 John 2:3-6&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-23;&#38;version=49;" rel="nofollow"&gt;Matthew 7:21-23&lt;/a&gt;, and &lt;a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26;&#38;version=49;" rel="nofollow"&gt;James 2:14-26&lt;/a&gt;.  And I would gladly follow the Bible to Rome if it were as simple as this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, assurance is one area where I differ with you.  You seem to operate with this common assumption that all who seek assurance should be assured; that all who seek assurance truly are Christians and merely need to become sure of that fact.  I disagree.  For example, you wrote, &#8220;The &#8216;best evidence&#8217; is &#8216;growth&#8217; in &#8216;love&#8217; and &#8216;fruit.&#8217; Being more &#8216;like Jesus.&#8217; Good grief. Can anyone spell &#8216;despair?&#8217;&#8221;  So what if that causes despair?  Maybe temporary despair is the correct response, and that would help drive someone to Christ - to truly believe, and therefore truly follow Him, and therefore have some assurance.  Perhaps then we&#8217;d see some of the reforms which we both desire!  The pastoral task is not like that of the pop psychologist - it is not to just make everyone feel better.  Before we ask how we can make a person feel sure, we must ask if we <i>should</i> make that person feel sure.  The paramount concern is not a person&#8217;s psychological state, but their spiritual state.  It is a bleak tragedy to give someone a false and temporary happiness at the expense of eternal happiness - that is, to give false assurance, and thereby keep people from finding salvation.</p>
<p>You can have <i>sola fide</i> and <i>sola Christus</i> with your interpretation - I&#8217;ll take <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:3-6&amp;version=49" rel="nofollow">1 John 2:3-6</a>, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-23;&amp;version=49;" rel="nofollow">Matthew 7:21-23</a>, and <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26;&amp;version=49;" rel="nofollow">James 2:14-26</a>.  And I would gladly follow the Bible to Rome if it were as simple as this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Ivy Gauvin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179685</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivy Gauvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Patrick, thank you for bringing out Piper's confusion of the Lutheran hermeneutic of law and gospel. Making "delight in God" a command can lead to works righteousness if one is not careful. Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick, thank you for bringing out Piper&#8217;s confusion of the Lutheran hermeneutic of law and gospel. Making &#8220;delight in God&#8221; a command can lead to works righteousness if one is not careful. Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: nannykim</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179672</link>
		<dc:creator>nannykim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179672</guid>
		<description>ooooops --I meant don't ya think--not thing!!! ps, I hate to say it but I love Piper too ;-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ooooops &#8211;I meant don&#8217;t ya think&#8211;not thing!!! ps, I hate to say it but I love Piper too ;-(</p>
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		<title>By: nannykim</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179667</link>
		<dc:creator>nannykim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-010108-losing-the-reformation-treasure-of-a-christ-centered-assurance-of-salvation#comment-179667</guid>
		<description>We are talking about assurance of our salvation; not necessarily the fact of our salvation. If we, ourselves want to have assurance then how we live , what we delight in, the Spirit's work, etc all according to I John and James is evidence. So this in turn gives us assurance----as does the fact of being in Christ----just two sides of the same coin.  I think, that when I am deliberately choosing sin, which of course I do.....if I do not want to repent or discard it then it may weaken my assurance....it may not weaken the fact of my salvation, just my assurance of it.  How we live proves to us that we are trusting Christ not just believing in Him as the demons do. It is proof to us that we have a trusting belief and not a belief like the demons have---they truly believe but it is not the right kind. I Peter 1 makes this -topic of assurance pretty clear, I think.  In verse 10 he says, "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things,you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."--How do we make certain about His calling? The "therefore" of verse 10 points back, I believe, to all of the qualities listed--being partakers of the divine nature---applying diligence in your faith supply moral excellence...knowledge, self-control etc--a long lits.  Our fruit is our proof to ourselves that we believe and trust and are not believers as the demons are. (Don't ya thing??? ) Kim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are talking about assurance of our salvation; not necessarily the fact of our salvation. If we, ourselves want to have assurance then how we live , what we delight in, the Spirit&#8217;s work, etc all according to I John and James is evidence. So this in turn gives us assurance&#8212;-as does the fact of being in Christ&#8212;-just two sides of the same coin.  I think, that when I am deliberately choosing sin, which of course I do&#8230;..if I do not want to repent or discard it then it may weaken my assurance&#8230;.it may not weaken the fact of my salvation, just my assurance of it.  How we live proves to us that we are trusting Christ not just believing in Him as the demons do. It is proof to us that we have a trusting belief and not a belief like the demons have&#8212;they truly believe but it is not the right kind. <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Peter+1" title="ESV 1Peter 1" class="bibleref">I Peter 1</a> makes this -topic of assurance pretty clear, I think.  In verse 10 he says, &#8220;Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things,you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.&#8221;&#8211;How do we make certain about His calling? The &#8220;therefore&#8221; of verse 10 points back, I believe, to all of the qualities listed&#8211;being partakers of the divine nature&#8212;applying diligence in your faith supply moral excellence&#8230;knowledge, self-control etc&#8211;a long lits.  Our fruit is our proof to ourselves that we believe and trust and are not believers as the demons are. (Don&#8217;t ya thing??? ) Kim</p>
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