I wish it weren’t true. I kind of hate it in a way. It offends my fallen sense of justice.

But deep inside, I know it’s the truth.

SO— that’s MY “fuzzy intuition” regarding complementarianism. I sense it’s true by the way it offends me.

I know…I agree completely, but I intentionally used this language (warm fuzzy) exactly because it seems so absurd. I just can’t shake the feeling that one day I’m going to stand before Jesus and he’s going to say,’Why did you deny me the blessing of teaching others, why did you not value what I said.’ I’ll reply,’Lord, when did I not do these things?’…and you know the rest.

Well, I think killing might be a bit of an overreaction, but –

One thing I have learned during the last 22 years of being a Christian is not at all to trust my own feelings on such matters.

I became a Christian, from an agnostic-shading-to-atheist background, in a Brethren church, which was extremely complementarian, to the point where the only sound a woman would ever make in a church meeting would be joining in the hymns. Not only would women never preach, they would never lead the worship, never pray out loud, never even read the bible out loud. I was taught the reasons for this and in my youth an naivety accepted them.

… so then then when a couple of years later I went to friend’s church, a charismatic evangelical church not wholly dissimilar to a Vineyard, I was utterly shocked to hear womean doing these things. Not preaching, I mean: just praying and reading. Really, I can hardly tell you how completely alien and wrong it felt to me, as though a righteous anger swelled up in me that anything calling itself a “church” could allow such things to happen.

I’m very pleased to say that I got over that But what it has left me with is a profound mistrust for my own feelings concerning doctrine and practice — even, or especially, when those feelings seem to have spiritual weight.

Sorry, beerhallrevivial. If it’s any consolation, I am totally in agreement with you about getting that beer!

But for me, I always come down to this:

Mark 16:6-7 NIV – “6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

The angel of the Lord is talking to Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome (all women). He’s telling them to tell Peter and his disciples (all men) the good news that Jesus is risen.

That’s women preaching to men, isn’t it?

The truth also doesn’t depend on whether you think you are right about a particular passage. For my money, I’m going with warm fuzzies on this one. Oh yeah…and the tradition of the Church. Now…where’s my beer?!?

“…denying women authority just doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy.”

I’m not weighing in one way or another in terms of where I stand on this argument, but let me say one thing with great certainty:

The truth of a biblical teaching does not depend in the slightest on whether or not it gives me a warm fuzzy.

That is all.

Kyle

You and I think alike. I really think it has to do with drinking exceptional beer and hanging out in places where this stuff really is completely unimportant other than something to blog/talk about (ie. the local pub). All this wrangling over this text and that just gets really tiring in the end. I think it’s time for another beer!

I took a look at about a dozen modern translations. None of them render the phrase with the word during. The word translated through (dia) occurs 509 times and is rendered “during” once in the NASB. I’m not enough of Greek scholar to tell which meaning of dia is the best one, but it looks like most translators hedged their bets by going with through, which could easily mean “by reason of” or “on account of”.

“Paul is instructing Timothy that he should tell women that they will not be saved in childbirth by superstitious worship of Artemis, but by their faith in Jesus.
That really doesn’t fit with the context of the chapter.

a) Why would Timothy need to be reminded that faith in a false God will not save women through child birth

b) There is no indication that Paul is telling Timothy to pass this on

c) Is Paul saying that faith in Jesus keeps women safe from injury or peril during childbirth?

And inferring the “weaker vessel” principle, Paul goes on to say the woman was deceived not Adam (I Tim.2:14) and that was before the curse. In context from verses 11 through 14 Paul brings out the leadership role of Adam was usurped by Eve when she submitted to the serpent rather than Adam.

Remember, Adam was given dominion over the garden, and it was Adam who named the beasts and he even named Eve. And when God called for accountability he called for Adam and asked him what had happened. It seems evident that Adam was the accountable leader before the Lord.

It is impossible to culturize Genesis, it reflects what the New Testament teaches.