Comments on: Responding to D.A. Carson’s “Five Trends In The Church” http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:58:24 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Rags http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-299843 Rags Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:36:36 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-299843 I appreciated Carson's talk (the summary of it) and iMonk's response. I have only a couple of comments. Trend 1: I think those churches where many conversions are occurring and biblical knowledge declining don't really exist. I know, that's absurd until you look more closely at what they mean by a "conversion." People who have responded to the gospel... which gospel? Raising a hand or walking an isle to "allow Jesus to be your personal Savior" (whatever that means) counts with the bean counters, but may not be representative of true conversions. Trends 4 & 5: I think the differences here are a matter of where we are now and where we are heading. Carson is gauging the noise level and the current push for change, and iMonk is simply recognizing where we are right now. Many in the church, particularly emergents and "ordinary radicals" (click my name for a review of Shane Claiborne's work), have done an effective job of critiquing the lack of social concern and community in the church. This is the trend Carson is critiquing, one that is just starting to get traction. I appreciated Carson’s talk (the summary of it) and iMonk’s response. I have only a couple of comments.

Trend 1: I think those churches where many conversions are occurring and biblical knowledge declining don’t really exist. I know, that’s absurd until you look more closely at what they mean by a “conversion.” People who have responded to the gospel… which gospel? Raising a hand or walking an isle to “allow Jesus to be your personal Savior” (whatever that means) counts with the bean counters, but may not be representative of true conversions.

Trends 4 & 5: I think the differences here are a matter of where we are now and where we are heading. Carson is gauging the noise level and the current push for change, and iMonk is simply recognizing where we are right now. Many in the church, particularly emergents and “ordinary radicals” (click my name for a review of Shane Claiborne’s work), have done an effective job of critiquing the lack of social concern and community in the church. This is the trend Carson is critiquing, one that is just starting to get traction.

]]> By: JCL http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-299251 JCL Fri, 03 Oct 2008 18:59:39 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-299251 I really like Don Carson. I had the privilege of hearing him speak 3 times at a minister's conference and he was fantastic. During one of the meals he sat down to eat with me and my wife and I then discovered that even though he is incredibly educated and smart, he's also a real person and not too distant from the rest of us. I really like Don Carson. I had the privilege of hearing him speak 3 times at a minister’s conference and he was fantastic. During one of the meals he sat down to eat with me and my wife and I then discovered that even though he is incredibly educated and smart, he’s also a real person and not too distant from the rest of us.

]]> By: caucazhin http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-299198 caucazhin Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:09:05 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-299198 Another very big problem is that alot of churches seem to end up being cults of personality.Which Paul so vehemently warned against.The maturity and patience that come across in Pauls letters is rarely seen today and one of the other reasons is that the gospel in large part has been entrenched in a capitalistic AKA / "American babylonianism" Americana mentality if you will.This tends to leave the TRUE gospel in the dark. And of coarse Christianity has basically been turned into a cottage industry with various franchises selling there brand of salvation.And the MEGAchurch mentality is the latest symptom of this phenomenon. Of coarse theres nothing new in all this or in D A Carsons ideas you can read through the OT and see Gods constant frustration with Israel for the exact same behavior which really shows us our fallen human nature hasnt changed. I really think that the internet is Gods newest way of bringing likeminded individuals together it allows someone to participate with a clear conscience,exchange ideas & questions freely without all the trappings of the cult of personality and phony peer pressure that goes along with so much of modern CHURCHIANITY ........ Another very big problem is that alot of churches seem to end up being cults of personality.Which Paul so vehemently warned against.The maturity and patience that come across in Pauls letters is rarely seen today and one of the other reasons is that the gospel in large part has been entrenched in a capitalistic AKA / “American babylonianism” Americana mentality if you will.This tends to leave the TRUE gospel in the dark.
And of coarse Christianity has basically been turned into a cottage industry with various franchises selling there brand of salvation.And the MEGAchurch mentality is the latest symptom of this phenomenon.
Of coarse theres nothing new in all this or in D A Carsons ideas you can read through the OT and see Gods constant frustration with Israel for the exact same behavior which really shows us our fallen human nature hasnt changed.
I really think that the internet is Gods newest way of bringing likeminded individuals together it allows someone to participate with a clear conscience,exchange ideas & questions freely without all the trappings of the cult of personality and phony peer pressure that goes along with so much of modern CHURCHIANITY ……..

]]> By: Greg DeVore http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-298902 Greg DeVore Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:28:10 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-298902 imonk writes:"Shall I name the churches and denominations that get the Gospel right but have nothing to do with the poor?" Are there such denominations that you can name? It is hard to imagine an entire denomination of Christians without any relief work, any food bank, any soup kitchens. imonk writes:”Shall I name the churches and denominations that get the Gospel right but have nothing to do with the poor?” Are there such denominations that you can name? It is hard to imagine an entire denomination of Christians without any relief work, any food bank, any soup kitchens.

]]> By: Ali http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-298868 Ali Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:14:48 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-298868 Aren't Trend #4 and Trend #5 really the same thing? Or perhaps it's more accurate to say Trend #4 is a subset of Trend #5. Aren’t Trend #4 and Trend #5 really the same thing? Or perhaps it’s more accurate to say Trend #4 is a subset of Trend #5.

]]> By: Eclectic Christian http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-298481 Eclectic Christian Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:04:19 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-298481 "Carson pointed out the increase in Biblical knowledge among churches that are seeing fewer and fewer conversions. The same point could be made about those parts of the Christian world that are seeing large numbers of conversions. Biblical knowledge is decreasing in those communities." In my previous church their were two factions within the elders board. One wanted to emphasize discipleship, the other wanted to emphasize evangelism. After their long serving Pastor moved on, the church board could not agree on a replacement to present for a congregational vote. Each candidate could only get approval from half of the board. Eventually things got to such a point that the District Superintendent stepped in, dissolved the church board and appointed a committee of area Pastors to make a recommendation for the future of the church. They voted to close the church down. My point is that if we don't understand in our churches that things like discipleship and evangelism need to go hand in hand, our churches will be severely limited in their Kingdom effectiveness. “Carson pointed out the increase in Biblical knowledge among churches that are seeing fewer and fewer conversions.

The same point could be made about those parts of the Christian world that are seeing large numbers of conversions. Biblical knowledge is decreasing in those communities.”

In my previous church their were two factions within the elders board. One wanted to emphasize discipleship, the other wanted to emphasize evangelism.

After their long serving Pastor moved on, the church board could not agree on a replacement to present for a congregational vote. Each candidate could only get approval from half of the board.

Eventually things got to such a point that the District Superintendent stepped in, dissolved the church board and appointed a committee of area Pastors to make a recommendation for the future of the church.

They voted to close the church down.

My point is that if we don’t understand in our churches that things like discipleship and evangelism need to go hand in hand, our churches will be severely limited in their Kingdom effectiveness.

]]> By: Michael A http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-298466 Michael A Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:16:10 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-298466 "Discipleship is living out the script that is the Gospel. Disciples are lost without the Gospel." Amen to that. I think it's a false choice to say you're either emphasizing discipleship or Gospel. Everybody is following someone. What we need is the constant reminder to make sure we're following Jesus and not ourselves or some political or religious figure. The freedom of the Gospel is freedom from self (Galatians 5). Basically, this is the same line of argument that Cross Gospel vs. Kingdom Gospel folks are having. Rather than insist Cross people develop a social conscience (if you consider yourself a Kingdom person) or Kingdom people develop a vision of grace (if you're a Cross person), figure out how you need to be challenged in their direction. Well, that's worth exactly $.02, Michael A. “Discipleship is living out the script that is the Gospel. Disciples are lost without the Gospel.”

Amen to that. I think it’s a false choice to say you’re either emphasizing discipleship or Gospel. Everybody is following someone. What we need is the constant reminder to make sure we’re following Jesus and not ourselves or some political or religious figure. The freedom of the Gospel is freedom from self (Galatians 5).

Basically, this is the same line of argument that Cross Gospel vs. Kingdom Gospel folks are having. Rather than insist Cross people develop a social conscience (if you consider yourself a Kingdom person) or Kingdom people develop a vision of grace (if you’re a Cross person), figure out how you need to be challenged in their direction.

Well, that’s worth exactly $.02,
Michael A.

]]> By: abmo http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-298360 abmo Thu, 02 Oct 2008 06:43:16 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-298360 <i>Trend 5: There is a trend in our churches to emphasize discipleship over the Gospel.</i> I find it difficult to believe because the church has no idea what discipleship is. I didn't know it was even possible to split the gospel and discipleship. Oh well, I learn new things every day :) Trend 5: There is a trend in our churches to emphasize discipleship over the Gospel. I find it difficult to believe because the church has no idea what discipleship is. I didn’t know it was even possible to split the gospel and discipleship. Oh well, I learn new things every day :)

]]> By: Learning http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-298283 Learning Thu, 02 Oct 2008 02:26:22 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-298283 I like Carson's point #5. I think he has a good observation. He's talking about legalistic christianity or churches that make the christian life all about "do this, do that, don't do that". It's basically "rule-book religion". We should always begin and remain in the grace of God first and then discipleship. I have in mind one church near where I am from that is known for knowing their bibles and knowing all the rules and having alot of bible knowledge but also have the reputation of being legalistic christians. For this church and others like them discipleship begins with the gospel theoretically but not practially or functionally. I like Carson’s point #5. I think he has a good observation. He’s talking about legalistic christianity or churches that make the christian life all about “do this, do that, don’t do that”. It’s basically “rule-book religion”.
We should always begin and remain in the grace of God first and then discipleship. I have in mind one church near where I am from that is known for knowing their bibles and knowing all the rules and having alot of bible knowledge but also have the reputation of being legalistic christians. For this church and others like them discipleship begins with the gospel theoretically but not practially or functionally.

]]> By: Anna A http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-298203 Anna A Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:24:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/responding-to-da-carsons-five-trends-in-the-church#comment-298203 I hope that they learn from the Catholic Church. The religious orders that have emphasized social work concerns without having enough prayer to balance it, are the dying ones. I hope that they learn from the Catholic Church. The religious orders that have emphasized social work concerns without having enough prayer to balance it, are the dying ones.

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