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	<title>Comments on: Riffs: 12:20:07: Religion Reporters Do Love Their Christmas Legends</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: C. Hays</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-172543</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Hays</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-172543</guid>
		<description>I am a Christian who has studied extensively the roots of &quot;Christ&quot;mas, and have reluctantly given up ALL the traditions of this so-called Christian holiday.  We all know about the pagan beginnings of Christmas, and if you study God&#039;s ordained holy celebrations - the Feast of Trumpets, Tabernacles, First Fruits, Passover, etc., you know that Jesus was most likely born at the end of September.  Yes, the Gospels outline the scenario of his humble birth, but it is nowhere to be found that He asks us to celebrate this event annually.  I, for one, am filled with joy when I think of His birth, and I teach my son this, but when it comes to Christmas, we just have fun, we don&#039;t worry about &quot;Jesus is the reason for the season&quot;, or whether they&#039;ve outlawed Nativity scenes in the town square.  Santa comes to our house, and we buy presents for those we love, donate to charities and give to those less fortunate, bake cookies and deliver them to people, and just have a great time.  I don&#039;t believe that Jesus ever was a part of the celebration, and I don&#039;t believe that He wants to be.  Do I miss Christmas pageants and all the trappings of the season?  Yes, of course I do, but those are traditions that make void the Word of God.  I don&#039;t judge those who still have Jesus in their Christmas celebrations, but my family and I have chosen to take him completely out of the hoo-haw, and make Christmas a holiday like Thanksgiving - totally secular, and a celebration of family and good cheer.  I have become a pariah of sorts among my family and friends (well, not really, they just think I&#039;m weird), but this is how I truly believe.  But as to the journalist writing that stuff, I just say that he&#039;s totally missing the point.  It&#039;s like at my son&#039;s Christian school when the &quot;Spiritual Committee&quot; outlawed Santa and the Easter Bunny from classroom decorations, saying that was detracting from the true meanings of these holidays.  I just had to smile to myself, thinking how silly it all was.

In faith,

C. Hays</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a Christian who has studied extensively the roots of &#8220;Christ&#8221;mas, and have reluctantly given up ALL the traditions of this so-called Christian holiday.  We all know about the pagan beginnings of Christmas, and if you study God&#8217;s ordained holy celebrations &#8211; the Feast of Trumpets, Tabernacles, First Fruits, Passover, etc., you know that Jesus was most likely born at the end of September.  Yes, the Gospels outline the scenario of his humble birth, but it is nowhere to be found that He asks us to celebrate this event annually.  I, for one, am filled with joy when I think of His birth, and I teach my son this, but when it comes to Christmas, we just have fun, we don&#8217;t worry about &#8220;Jesus is the reason for the season&#8221;, or whether they&#8217;ve outlawed Nativity scenes in the town square.  Santa comes to our house, and we buy presents for those we love, donate to charities and give to those less fortunate, bake cookies and deliver them to people, and just have a great time.  I don&#8217;t believe that Jesus ever was a part of the celebration, and I don&#8217;t believe that He wants to be.  Do I miss Christmas pageants and all the trappings of the season?  Yes, of course I do, but those are traditions that make void the Word of God.  I don&#8217;t judge those who still have Jesus in their Christmas celebrations, but my family and I have chosen to take him completely out of the hoo-haw, and make Christmas a holiday like Thanksgiving &#8211; totally secular, and a celebration of family and good cheer.  I have become a pariah of sorts among my family and friends (well, not really, they just think I&#8217;m weird), but this is how I truly believe.  But as to the journalist writing that stuff, I just say that he&#8217;s totally missing the point.  It&#8217;s like at my son&#8217;s Christian school when the &#8220;Spiritual Committee&#8221; outlawed Santa and the Easter Bunny from classroom decorations, saying that was detracting from the true meanings of these holidays.  I just had to smile to myself, thinking how silly it all was.</p>
<p>In faith,</p>
<p>C. Hays</p>
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		<title>By: Clay of CO</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-172134</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay of CO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-172134</guid>
		<description>Just in case someone makes it this far down, check out the following resources for more historical perspective:

1. &quot;The Manger and the Inn: The Cultural Background of Luke 2:7&quot;, by Kenneth E. Bailey (Theological Review, II/2, 1979, pp. 33-44)--This is a scholarly theological journal article on the cultural and etymological issues surrounding where Jesus was born and laid. Bailey provides strong evidence that it was a &quot;guest room,&quot; and that the &quot;manger&quot; is a feed trough in the main room of the house possibly cut into the floor.

2. &quot;The Star of Bethlehem,&quot; a new DVD from Genius Entertainment produced by Stephen McEveety (The Passion of the Christ) based on extensive research by Rick Larsen--This presentation is unlike any you have ever seen on the star. It was indeed a natural event, and it occured exactly as the Bible describes it. Larsen brings together biblical references, astronomy, cultural insight, and the use of technology in the most convincing presentation I have ever seen. You can also access his research at www.bethlehemstar.net. The DVD is widely available.

Merry Christmas!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case someone makes it this far down, check out the following resources for more historical perspective:</p>
<p>1. &#8220;The Manger and the Inn: The Cultural Background of <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Luke+2%3A7" class="bibleref" title="ESV Luke 2:7">Luke 2:7</a>&#8243;, by Kenneth E. Bailey (Theological Review, II/2, 1979, pp. 33-44)&#8211;This is a scholarly theological journal article on the cultural and etymological issues surrounding where Jesus was born and laid. Bailey provides strong evidence that it was a &#8220;guest room,&#8221; and that the &#8220;manger&#8221; is a feed trough in the main room of the house possibly cut into the floor.</p>
<p>2. &#8220;The Star of Bethlehem,&#8221; a new DVD from Genius Entertainment produced by Stephen McEveety (The Passion of the Christ) based on extensive research by Rick Larsen&#8211;This presentation is unlike any you have ever seen on the star. It was indeed a natural event, and it occured exactly as the Bible describes it. Larsen brings together biblical references, astronomy, cultural insight, and the use of technology in the most convincing presentation I have ever seen. You can also access his research at <a href="http://www.bethlehemstar.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.bethlehemstar.net</a>. The DVD is widely available.</p>
<p>Merry Christmas!</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy R.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-172111</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-172111</guid>
		<description>This whole episode is a good reminder to read the Bible with fresh eyes, and to forget all the things we add to it. I teach preschoolers at a church-owned school, and in teaching them about the visit of the wise men I show them how the books made for children are wrong. So many picture books about Jesus&#039; birth show them in the stable alongside the shepherds. 
   Our 3- and 4-year-olds are learning to go back to the source: what does it actually say in the Bible? Young children are capable of telling the difference between the truth, and someone&#039;s fanciful idea of what may have happened. I told them that the people who make the kids&#039; books don&#039;t always read the Bible carefully, and some of them suggested they need better glasses.

   Why does the fact that only one of the gospels describes Jesus&#039; birth, and only one describes the magis&#039; visit, supposedly make those events less credible? The four gospels are essentially eyewitness accounts of Jesus&#039; ministry. The disciples weren&#039;t around for his birth but relied on second-hand accounts of them. The events surrounding Jesus&#039; birth were important enough to be included even though they hadn&#039;t personally witnessed them. I think the fact that the gospels have so few events that the disciples could not have witnessed actually makes them more credible. These men were honest reporters, who wrote what they saw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole episode is a good reminder to read the Bible with fresh eyes, and to forget all the things we add to it. I teach preschoolers at a church-owned school, and in teaching them about the visit of the wise men I show them how the books made for children are wrong. So many picture books about Jesus&#8217; birth show them in the stable alongside the shepherds.<br />
   Our 3- and 4-year-olds are learning to go back to the source: what does it actually say in the Bible? Young children are capable of telling the difference between the truth, and someone&#8217;s fanciful idea of what may have happened. I told them that the people who make the kids&#8217; books don&#8217;t always read the Bible carefully, and some of them suggested they need better glasses.</p>
<p>   Why does the fact that only one of the gospels describes Jesus&#8217; birth, and only one describes the magis&#8217; visit, supposedly make those events less credible? The four gospels are essentially eyewitness accounts of Jesus&#8217; ministry. The disciples weren&#8217;t around for his birth but relied on second-hand accounts of them. The events surrounding Jesus&#8217; birth were important enough to be included even though they hadn&#8217;t personally witnessed them. I think the fact that the gospels have so few events that the disciples could not have witnessed actually makes them more credible. These men were honest reporters, who wrote what they saw.</p>
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		<title>By: CAndiron</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-172105</link>
		<dc:creator>CAndiron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-172105</guid>
		<description>MS, RR I stand corrected, although he did, a decade or so ago, have a liberal view of sexuality, but has shifted right since then. I guess I was just expressing my exasperation at his ineffectual handling of the current situation in the AC. As a matter of fact practically everyone (on both sides) perceives him to be a weak leader who probably should have stayed in the academy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MS, RR I stand corrected, although he did, a decade or so ago, have a liberal view of sexuality, but has shifted right since then. I guess I was just expressing my exasperation at his ineffectual handling of the current situation in the AC. As a matter of fact practically everyone (on both sides) perceives him to be a weak leader who probably should have stayed in the academy.</p>
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		<title>By: Nephos</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-172069</link>
		<dc:creator>Nephos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-172069</guid>
		<description>&quot;No little drummer boy. No lambs brought by shepherds.&quot;

Right.  And I bet next you&#039;re going to tell us Nestor the long eared donkey wasn&#039;t there either.  You historical revisionists disgust me!





(I would have given a sarcasm alert but that sort of ruins the fun.  :)  )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;No little drummer boy. No lambs brought by shepherds.&#8221;</p>
<p>Right.  And I bet next you&#8217;re going to tell us Nestor the long eared donkey wasn&#8217;t there either.  You historical revisionists disgust me!</p>
<p>(I would have given a sarcasm alert but that sort of ruins the fun.  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   )</p>
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		<title>By: fr. Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-172068</link>
		<dc:creator>fr. Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-172068</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with you on Williams&#039; thoughts being distorted.  He did not say anything heretical.  

My only criticism is that RW is so used to being in the academy that he forgets how people hear what he says.  Think of all the Christmas pageants going in the Church of England with all the dear sweet little kids celebrating the nativity, etc. and then the ABC uses the word legend in context with the nativity.

Methinks the man has a bit of a pastoral tin ear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you on Williams&#8217; thoughts being distorted.  He did not say anything heretical.  </p>
<p>My only criticism is that RW is so used to being in the academy that he forgets how people hear what he says.  Think of all the Christmas pageants going in the Church of England with all the dear sweet little kids celebrating the nativity, etc. and then the ABC uses the word legend in context with the nativity.</p>
<p>Methinks the man has a bit of a pastoral tin ear.</p>
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		<title>By: RecusantRector</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-172048</link>
		<dc:creator>RecusantRector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-172048</guid>
		<description>One point to remember about Rowan Williams: he is not a &quot;liberal cleric&quot; if by liberal you mean &quot;boo-word-throwing-the-doctrinal-baby-out-with-the-bath-water&quot; kind of liberal. He is completely and fully orthodox in his beliefs and teaching (for example, check out his enthronement sermon, available &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/2003/030227.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; where he preaches, simply and movingly, Christ crucified). He may be liberal in his personal political beliefs, once describing himself as a &quot;hairy leftie&quot;, but the hermeneutic direction is always Scripture -&gt; Doctrine -&gt; Praxis, and never the other way round.

The other thing to remember (ok, so I misled you) is that Williams is Welsh, and this influences his rhetoric. The &lt;i&gt;way&lt;/i&gt; Williams speaks is almost always more enlightening than &lt;i&gt;what&lt;/i&gt; he says. I think of Williams&#039;s teaching a bit like a musical score: on the printed page it only really makes sense to those who have profound musical gifts, who can &quot;hear&quot; the music just be seeing the notes. When his teaching is spoken (and preferably in person) then it is as if the piece is being performed by the best musicians in the world, and it is capable of moving and enlightening everyone who hears it. 

I have heard Williams speak many times, sometimes in groups of four or five, sometimes in cathedral congregations of a thousand. Every time I am struck by being in the presence of a holy man, someone who has stood and seeks to stand in the presence of Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One point to remember about Rowan Williams: he is not a &#8220;liberal cleric&#8221; if by liberal you mean &#8220;boo-word-throwing-the-doctrinal-baby-out-with-the-bath-water&#8221; kind of liberal. He is completely and fully orthodox in his beliefs and teaching (for example, check out his enthronement sermon, available <a href="http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/2003/030227.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> where he preaches, simply and movingly, Christ crucified). He may be liberal in his personal political beliefs, once describing himself as a &#8220;hairy leftie&#8221;, but the hermeneutic direction is always Scripture -&gt; Doctrine -&gt; Praxis, and never the other way round.</p>
<p>The other thing to remember (ok, so I misled you) is that Williams is Welsh, and this influences his rhetoric. The <i>way</i> Williams speaks is almost always more enlightening than <i>what</i> he says. I think of Williams&#8217;s teaching a bit like a musical score: on the printed page it only really makes sense to those who have profound musical gifts, who can &#8220;hear&#8221; the music just be seeing the notes. When his teaching is spoken (and preferably in person) then it is as if the piece is being performed by the best musicians in the world, and it is capable of moving and enlightening everyone who hears it. </p>
<p>I have heard Williams speak many times, sometimes in groups of four or five, sometimes in cathedral congregations of a thousand. Every time I am struck by being in the presence of a holy man, someone who has stood and seeks to stand in the presence of Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Anton</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-171950</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 06:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-171950</guid>
		<description>There are no superlatives recorded surrounding Christ’s birth.  Most everything we imagine are extra textual embellishments, that have been added throughout the centuries.  Those for whom this Gospel was written, were not inhabitants of the land in which the recorded events occurred, and hence may not have know the hills of Palestine, the weather conditions, nor the town of Bethlehem and its layout, and possibly, not even what a Bethlehem stable might looked like, nor what type of animals it might contain.  No shepherds are described other than, that they were in the field, and that they were afraid.  No angel is named or described.  The text does not even state whether they appeared to the shepherds in the sky, or on the earth.  It only states that they appeared to them, delivered a message and praised God.   Mary and Joseph are not described, Jesus is only described as a Savior, in the form of a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes, and lying in a manger.  The rest is left to our imagination.  Or is it?  Could it be that we are to leave the rest alone because it becomes a distraction from the message, &quot;For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ The Lord&quot;?  That message is good enough for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are no superlatives recorded surrounding Christ’s birth.  Most everything we imagine are extra textual embellishments, that have been added throughout the centuries.  Those for whom this Gospel was written, were not inhabitants of the land in which the recorded events occurred, and hence may not have know the hills of Palestine, the weather conditions, nor the town of Bethlehem and its layout, and possibly, not even what a Bethlehem stable might looked like, nor what type of animals it might contain.  No shepherds are described other than, that they were in the field, and that they were afraid.  No angel is named or described.  The text does not even state whether they appeared to the shepherds in the sky, or on the earth.  It only states that they appeared to them, delivered a message and praised God.   Mary and Joseph are not described, Jesus is only described as a Savior, in the form of a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes, and lying in a manger.  The rest is left to our imagination.  Or is it?  Could it be that we are to leave the rest alone because it becomes a distraction from the message, &#8220;For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ The Lord&#8221;?  That message is good enough for me.</p>
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		<title>By: K.W. Leslie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-171929</link>
		<dc:creator>K.W. Leslie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 05:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-171929</guid>
		<description>Having been a reporter, I have lots of firsthand experience with this sort of thing. Reporters tend to be more knowledgeable than the public, usually &#039;cause we keep up on current events, and have to know all the back stories as part of our jobs. Unfortunately this makes many of us think we&#039;re nigh-infallible. So when we make a mistake, some of us can&#039;t &lt;i&gt;conceive&lt;/i&gt; of the possibility that we&#039;ve done so. (And people wonder why we come across as arrogant.)

So I&#039;m not surprised Dr. Williams was misquoted. As far as biblical matters are concerned, reporters have some pretty profound idiots among us. I remember one NPR interview in particular, with one of the translators of the TNIV. The reporter wasted a good two minutes of the interview just &lt;i&gt;dumbfounded&lt;/i&gt; that Matthew was never referred to as &quot;St. Matthew&quot; within the text of the scriptures. He was &lt;i&gt;convinced&lt;/i&gt; that the translator must be wrong about this... despite his obviously never having read a bible.

I went to Israel back in &#039;98 and visited the Church of the Nativity. The church&#039;s tour guide basically said everything Williams had said and then some. I&#039;m sure the guide gets groups from every English-speaking denomination (our group certainly was a blend) and none of them make a fuss about how the facts shatter our Christmas traditions. In fact many of them are &lt;i&gt;happy&lt;/i&gt; to have the facts. As any earnest seeker of truth should be. Any fuss raised is totally fabricated to sell tabloids... which is to be expected of the British press.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been a reporter, I have lots of firsthand experience with this sort of thing. Reporters tend to be more knowledgeable than the public, usually &#8217;cause we keep up on current events, and have to know all the back stories as part of our jobs. Unfortunately this makes many of us think we&#8217;re nigh-infallible. So when we make a mistake, some of us can&#8217;t <i>conceive</i> of the possibility that we&#8217;ve done so. (And people wonder why we come across as arrogant.)</p>
<p>So I&#8217;m not surprised Dr. Williams was misquoted. As far as biblical matters are concerned, reporters have some pretty profound idiots among us. I remember one NPR interview in particular, with one of the translators of the TNIV. The reporter wasted a good two minutes of the interview just <i>dumbfounded</i> that Matthew was never referred to as &#8220;St. Matthew&#8221; within the text of the scriptures. He was <i>convinced</i> that the translator must be wrong about this&#8230; despite his obviously never having read a bible.</p>
<p>I went to Israel back in &#8216;98 and visited the Church of the Nativity. The church&#8217;s tour guide basically said everything Williams had said and then some. I&#8217;m sure the guide gets groups from every English-speaking denomination (our group certainly was a blend) and none of them make a fuss about how the facts shatter our Christmas traditions. In fact many of them are <i>happy</i> to have the facts. As any earnest seeker of truth should be. Any fuss raised is totally fabricated to sell tabloids&#8230; which is to be expected of the British press.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends/comment-page-1#comment-171908</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 03:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/religion-reporters-do-love-their-christmas-legends#comment-171908</guid>
		<description>Liberal archbishops who believe in the Virgin birth? How do you think our ECUSA Bishop would answer that question? Williams is one of the good guys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liberal archbishops who believe in the Virgin birth? How do you think our ECUSA Bishop would answer that question? Williams is one of the good guys.</p>
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