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	<title>Comments on: Redeeming a Dirty Word</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Worship as Bounden Duty &#171; Cogito, Credo, Petam</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-525403</link>
		<dc:creator>Worship as Bounden Duty &#171; Cogito, Credo, Petam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] us his friends who follow him. Nevertheless, the Lordâ€™s adoration and service is also simply right and fitting (HT: Xander Knecht): And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. And the Lord said, If [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] us his friends who follow him. Nevertheless, the Lordâ€™s adoration and service is also simply right and fitting (HT: Xander Knecht): And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. And the Lord said, If [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Update: Galli on Grace and Obligation &#124; internetmonk.com</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-525350</link>
		<dc:creator>Update: Galli on Grace and Obligation &#124; internetmonk.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-525350</guid>
		<description>[...] week I put up a post called, &#8220;Redeeming a Dirty Word,&#8221; in which I tried to say that concepts like &#8220;obligation&#8221; and &#8220;duty&#8221; are not [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] week I put up a post called, &#8220;Redeeming a Dirty Word,&#8221; in which I tried to say that concepts like &#8220;obligation&#8221; and &#8220;duty&#8221; are not [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-524630</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 06:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-524630</guid>
		<description>A few thoughts here

I wondered if maybe part of differing perspectives comes from a Calvinistic versus Arminian mindset looking at two different sides of the coin.  Calvinism focuses on God&#039;s sovereignty, while Arminianism focuses on mankind&#039;s free will.

As for myself being an Arminian, I like the words of Bruce Cockburn&#039;s song &quot;I was a dweller by a dark stream&quot; in which he writes:  &quot;You wanted us like you, as choosers, not clones.&quot;  Obligation and duty are words that really strike me the wrong way, I worship God because I want to, not because I have to.  I follow Christ because I want to, not because I am obligated.  Sure I am prompted to respond because his love and sacrifice for me, and those are the things that make me want to respond.

For my second thought I am reminded of the text of Leviticus 26.  Choosing to follow God or choosing to not follow God each had a set of consequences associated with it.  In this Old Testament case the Israelites were told that if they followed God they would be blessed, and if they did not then God would be hostile towards them.  It was a choice that they had to make, and they did make numerous times throughout the Old Testament.

Christ gives a choice as well.  He had sacrificed himself for us, and we have the responsibility to accept or reject that.  We respond, love for love, because he first loved us.  I reread the post and looked at the list of reasons why we are &quot;obliged&quot; to worship.  Most of the world sees that same list and says &quot;no thank you&quot;.  There is no obligation in that list.  But I do respond to that list, not out of obligation but out of gratitude.  

If I save the life of a drowning man is he obliged to give me anything?  No, but he will often respond out of gratitude.

One final thought:  As a worship leader I want to give people an opportunity to respond to the greatness of God, whether it be through the majestic strains of organ and choir in a Cathedral, or through some of the more powerful praise music of today, or in the slilence of a small group prayer time.  Jesus says &quot;Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.&quot;.  &lt;b&gt;Worship is a whole body experience&lt;/b&gt;  and to me obligation and duty just speak to one small corner of my mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few thoughts here</p>
<p>I wondered if maybe part of differing perspectives comes from a Calvinistic versus Arminian mindset looking at two different sides of the coin.  Calvinism focuses on God&#8217;s sovereignty, while Arminianism focuses on mankind&#8217;s free will.</p>
<p>As for myself being an Arminian, I like the words of Bruce Cockburn&#8217;s song &#8220;I was a dweller by a dark stream&#8221; in which he writes:  &#8220;You wanted us like you, as choosers, not clones.&#8221;  Obligation and duty are words that really strike me the wrong way, I worship God because I want to, not because I have to.  I follow Christ because I want to, not because I am obligated.  Sure I am prompted to respond because his love and sacrifice for me, and those are the things that make me want to respond.</p>
<p>For my second thought I am reminded of the text of Leviticus 26.  Choosing to follow God or choosing to not follow God each had a set of consequences associated with it.  In this Old Testament case the Israelites were told that if they followed God they would be blessed, and if they did not then God would be hostile towards them.  It was a choice that they had to make, and they did make numerous times throughout the Old Testament.</p>
<p>Christ gives a choice as well.  He had sacrificed himself for us, and we have the responsibility to accept or reject that.  We respond, love for love, because he first loved us.  I reread the post and looked at the list of reasons why we are &#8220;obliged&#8221; to worship.  Most of the world sees that same list and says &#8220;no thank you&#8221;.  There is no obligation in that list.  But I do respond to that list, not out of obligation but out of gratitude.  </p>
<p>If I save the life of a drowning man is he obliged to give me anything?  No, but he will often respond out of gratitude.</p>
<p>One final thought:  As a worship leader I want to give people an opportunity to respond to the greatness of God, whether it be through the majestic strains of organ and choir in a Cathedral, or through some of the more powerful praise music of today, or in the slilence of a small group prayer time.  Jesus says &#8220;Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.&#8221;.  <b>Worship is a whole body experience</b>  and to me obligation and duty just speak to one small corner of my mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Lynch</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-524616</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Lynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 00:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-524616</guid>
		<description>There was a level of cultural expectation -among Christians-, sure; just like now. Only there are fewer of us, and we seem to expect less of ourselves and one another with regards to religious attendance and contribution. 

But I can&#039;t believe that non-Christians ever went to church in any numbers because it was &#039;the thing to do&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a level of cultural expectation -among Christians-, sure; just like now. Only there are fewer of us, and we seem to expect less of ourselves and one another with regards to religious attendance and contribution. </p>
<p>But I can&#8217;t believe that non-Christians ever went to church in any numbers because it was &#8216;the thing to do&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyber Pope</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-524609</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyber Pope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 20:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-524609</guid>
		<description>When you make Christ the Lord of your life, Salvation is a free gift. Such as my giving you a car. You can choose to place that car in a garage, let it sit. You can also choose to do the upkeep on the car. Wax the car, take nice long drives in the summer and truly enjoy that free gift. I see salvation like that. What value is it if I hide it in my heart. How do I honor the giver when I refuse to tell others that He gave me a gift. How do I honor those in my life if I do not tell them that they too can get a free car?

We worship God because he alone is worthy. We are OK with fawning over people who make movies, sing in bands, make touch downs, but we baulk at the creator of the universe. I have always found that odd. 

Our relationship with God cannot be one sided. It can be a relationship where we just ask, take and pull. If we want the most out of the relationship, we must be willing to give as well as take. We need to work on the relationship with God, just as we would any other relationship. How do you feel when a loved one truly thanks you when you do something for them. How do you feel when your spouse says they love you, and you see the twinkle in their eye. How do you feel when they make you a nice dinner on a hard day, or bring you home flowers? When we tell others about God, or help His works financially, those are the flowers we give. 
When we receive a gift, we have a responsibility once we accept it. It is not a cost, but a responsibility. If you feel you have no responsibility towards the free gift of God&#039;s love, I would wonder what the value of the gift is to that person. If that person does not understand the value, did they actually receive it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you make Christ the Lord of your life, Salvation is a free gift. Such as my giving you a car. You can choose to place that car in a garage, let it sit. You can also choose to do the upkeep on the car. Wax the car, take nice long drives in the summer and truly enjoy that free gift. I see salvation like that. What value is it if I hide it in my heart. How do I honor the giver when I refuse to tell others that He gave me a gift. How do I honor those in my life if I do not tell them that they too can get a free car?</p>
<p>We worship God because he alone is worthy. We are OK with fawning over people who make movies, sing in bands, make touch downs, but we baulk at the creator of the universe. I have always found that odd. </p>
<p>Our relationship with God cannot be one sided. It can be a relationship where we just ask, take and pull. If we want the most out of the relationship, we must be willing to give as well as take. We need to work on the relationship with God, just as we would any other relationship. How do you feel when a loved one truly thanks you when you do something for them. How do you feel when your spouse says they love you, and you see the twinkle in their eye. How do you feel when they make you a nice dinner on a hard day, or bring you home flowers? When we tell others about God, or help His works financially, those are the flowers we give.<br />
When we receive a gift, we have a responsibility once we accept it. It is not a cost, but a responsibility. If you feel you have no responsibility towards the free gift of God&#8217;s love, I would wonder what the value of the gift is to that person. If that person does not understand the value, did they actually receive it?</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-524607</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 20:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-524607</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure what happened to my original reply to this last answer.  Anyway, in case you didn&#039;t see it:

I agree wholeheartedly that worship is not about creating emotional highs.  And I&#039;ve had too little contact with Willow Creek personally or through their own media to be able to come to a fair judgment if this is really their philosophy or just a general perception of the end result of  a process that focusses so much on spiritual seekers.

In terms of troubling worship trends in evangelicalism, I can certainly see where you&#039;re coming from and would agree as well, particularly regarding the overall quality of song writing in contemporary Christian music.  But that&#039;s an entirely different topic altogether.

Why do I worship?  I would say:  because God has opened my eyes to the fact that He is worthy to be praised, cherished, served.  That&#039;s almost the same as saying, &quot;it is my duty&quot; but not quite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure what happened to my original reply to this last answer.  Anyway, in case you didn&#8217;t see it:</p>
<p>I agree wholeheartedly that worship is not about creating emotional highs.  And I&#8217;ve had too little contact with Willow Creek personally or through their own media to be able to come to a fair judgment if this is really their philosophy or just a general perception of the end result of  a process that focusses so much on spiritual seekers.</p>
<p>In terms of troubling worship trends in evangelicalism, I can certainly see where you&#8217;re coming from and would agree as well, particularly regarding the overall quality of song writing in contemporary Christian music.  But that&#8217;s an entirely different topic altogether.</p>
<p>Why do I worship?  I would say:  because God has opened my eyes to the fact that He is worthy to be praised, cherished, served.  That&#8217;s almost the same as saying, &#8220;it is my duty&#8221; but not quite.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-524598</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-524598</guid>
		<description>And I can think of few things more &lt;i&gt;subjective&lt;/i&gt; than biblical interpretation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I can think of few things more <i>subjective</i> than biblical interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaplain Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-524597</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaplain Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-524597</guid>
		<description>the word &quot;owe&quot; is in the text, and &quot;obligation&quot; is used in the second half of the verse to clarify its relationship to the first part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the word &#8220;owe&#8221; is in the text, and &#8220;obligation&#8221; is used in the second half of the verse to clarify its relationship to the first part.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-524595</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-524595</guid>
		<description>At the risk of being labeled as a quibbler...

Is a rational justification based on objective facts for my worship of God--or my love of my wife--required for it to be valid? Because the more objectively and rationally I consider God, the more I am pushed away from any faith in him. If I view my personal relationships in a rational or objective way, the more I realize my friends and family are not to be associated with--oh, and neither am I--and any thinking man would cut bait.

But I don&#039;t, in either instance, because the subjective value of the relationships carries more influence than the objective reality.

Second -- I&#039;m no greek scholar, but I know enough rudimentary greek and textual criticism to know that the word &quot;obligation&quot; is not in the text--some translations use it, some don&#039;t. Which begs the obvious question...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of being labeled as a quibbler&#8230;</p>
<p>Is a rational justification based on objective facts for my worship of God&#8211;or my love of my wife&#8211;required for it to be valid? Because the more objectively and rationally I consider God, the more I am pushed away from any faith in him. If I view my personal relationships in a rational or objective way, the more I realize my friends and family are not to be associated with&#8211;oh, and neither am I&#8211;and any thinking man would cut bait.</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t, in either instance, because the subjective value of the relationships carries more influence than the objective reality.</p>
<p>Second &#8212; I&#8217;m no greek scholar, but I know enough rudimentary greek and textual criticism to know that the word &#8220;obligation&#8221; is not in the text&#8211;some translations use it, some don&#8217;t. Which begs the obvious question&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/redeeming-a-dirty-word/comment-page-1#comment-524559</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 06:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5583#comment-524559</guid>
		<description>I find myself agreeing with your conclusions, but not your prepositions.  As one of the few non-Christians kicking around here, I don&#039;t start from the same perspective as you.  However, if there is a God who created everything, a simple thanks is more than just good manners.

I also agree about duty, in a more general sense.  While the radicals of the 60&#039;s and 70&#039;s were right to advocate a massive change in a society that told over half its population that they could not care for themselves, but needed husbands to be actual people and told another quarter that they were nothing but trash because of the color of their skin, they stepped a tad too far.  In seeking to destroy the injustices in the world, they lost themselves and forgot that as humans, we owe a debt to each other and those who created us and support us.  Whether that view extends only so far back as ones parents, or goes back to God, we have a duty to thank those who did this regularly for what they have done for us.   The simple act of providing thanks does not diminish the one thanking, a fact that I think has been forgotten.  

Because of our differing starting points (I have an unreasonable grudge against the word presupposition and thus endeavor not to use it), I may have missed the point of your essay.  I hope I didn&#039;t, as I found it reinforcing my view that I have a duty to do my best to help others, which is always welcome in the cynicism of today&#039;s world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find myself agreeing with your conclusions, but not your prepositions.  As one of the few non-Christians kicking around here, I don&#8217;t start from the same perspective as you.  However, if there is a God who created everything, a simple thanks is more than just good manners.</p>
<p>I also agree about duty, in a more general sense.  While the radicals of the 60&#8242;s and 70&#8242;s were right to advocate a massive change in a society that told over half its population that they could not care for themselves, but needed husbands to be actual people and told another quarter that they were nothing but trash because of the color of their skin, they stepped a tad too far.  In seeking to destroy the injustices in the world, they lost themselves and forgot that as humans, we owe a debt to each other and those who created us and support us.  Whether that view extends only so far back as ones parents, or goes back to God, we have a duty to thank those who did this regularly for what they have done for us.   The simple act of providing thanks does not diminish the one thanking, a fact that I think has been forgotten.  </p>
<p>Because of our differing starting points (I have an unreasonable grudge against the word presupposition and thus endeavor not to use it), I may have missed the point of your essay.  I hope I didn&#8217;t, as I found it reinforcing my view that I have a duty to do my best to help others, which is always welcome in the cynicism of today&#8217;s world.</p>
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