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	<title>Comments on: Recommended: Wicker and Duin on The End of Evangelicalism</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: internetmonk com Blog Archive Recommended Wicker and Duin on &#124; My Site</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-471438</link>
		<dc:creator>internetmonk com Blog Archive Recommended Wicker and Duin on &#124; My Site</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-471438</guid>
		<description>[...] internetmonk com Blog Archive Recommended Wicker and Duin on   Posted by root 19 minutes ago (http://www.internetmonk.com)        And i nodded when i read quiclime comment about there power in the blood from the creators of wordpress garden podcast powered by podpress v8 8        Discuss&#160;  &#124;&#160; Bury &#124;&#160;    News &#124; internetmonk com Blog Archive Recommended Wicker and Duin on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] internetmonk com Blog Archive Recommended Wicker and Duin on   Posted by root 19 minutes ago (<a href="http://www.internetmonk.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.internetmonk.com</a>)        And i nodded when i read quiclime comment about there power in the blood from the creators of wordpress garden podcast powered by podpress v8 8        Discuss&nbsp;  |&nbsp; Bury |&nbsp;    News | internetmonk com Blog Archive Recommended Wicker and Duin on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor M</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-326532</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-326532</guid>
		<description>After reading this post, I got Duin&#039;s book. While I can certainly agree with many of her points and feel sick about much of what she says, I also wanted to ask her just what she thought a church should be. She levels a lot of criticism at pastors, much of it warranted, but no one pastor could possibly do all to which she alludes: visit, care and counsel people on demand, study 15 hours a week at least, preach messages with both depth and relevance, lead with compelling vision, help people with their spiritual growth, and more. Last time I checked there were only 168 hours in a week and we need to sleep at least 30% of those just to keep going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading this post, I got Duin&#8217;s book. While I can certainly agree with many of her points and feel sick about much of what she says, I also wanted to ask her just what she thought a church should be. She levels a lot of criticism at pastors, much of it warranted, but no one pastor could possibly do all to which she alludes: visit, care and counsel people on demand, study 15 hours a week at least, preach messages with both depth and relevance, lead with compelling vision, help people with their spiritual growth, and more. Last time I checked there were only 168 hours in a week and we need to sleep at least 30% of those just to keep going.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine Wicker</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-323873</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine Wicker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-323873</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your nice words about my book. I&#039;m the author of &quot;The Fall of the Evangelical Nation.&quot; I&#039;m going to read the other posts, but it may take me a few days. It&#039;s gardening season in Southern California and as always, I&#039;ve bought more plants than I&#039;m ready to plant. The rains are coming soon, and so I&#039;m in a hurry. 

(Does that sound religious to you? Some days everything sounds religious to me. In the Big R way, I mean.)

I&#039;m so delighted to be engaged with your group and honored that you would read my book and understand it so well. Your kindness humbles me. 

An old friend from Dallas, Ben Beard, alerted me to this discussion. I laughed aloud at Headless Unicorn&#039;s story of the preacher. Wise words. 

And I nodded when I read Quiclime&#039;s comment about &quot;There&#039;s Power in the Blood.&quot; A longtime friend died last night and all morning another old hymn has been running through my mind. &quot;Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, sweetest name I know.&quot; 

Sorry I&#039;m rambling. Your comments have overwhelmed me with too many thoughts. They&#039;ve reminded me once again how much I adore evangelicals and other full hearted Christians. 

I&#039;ll read on this afternoon.

Thank you. Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your nice words about my book. I&#8217;m the author of &#8220;The Fall of the Evangelical Nation.&#8221; I&#8217;m going to read the other posts, but it may take me a few days. It&#8217;s gardening season in Southern California and as always, I&#8217;ve bought more plants than I&#8217;m ready to plant. The rains are coming soon, and so I&#8217;m in a hurry. </p>
<p>(Does that sound religious to you? Some days everything sounds religious to me. In the Big R way, I mean.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m so delighted to be engaged with your group and honored that you would read my book and understand it so well. Your kindness humbles me. </p>
<p>An old friend from Dallas, Ben Beard, alerted me to this discussion. I laughed aloud at Headless Unicorn&#8217;s story of the preacher. Wise words. </p>
<p>And I nodded when I read Quiclime&#8217;s comment about &#8220;There&#8217;s Power in the Blood.&#8221; A longtime friend died last night and all morning another old hymn has been running through my mind. &#8220;Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, sweetest name I know.&#8221; </p>
<p>Sorry I&#8217;m rambling. Your comments have overwhelmed me with too many thoughts. They&#8217;ve reminded me once again how much I adore evangelicals and other full hearted Christians. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll read on this afternoon.</p>
<p>Thank you. Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Wezlo</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-322686</link>
		<dc:creator>Wezlo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-322686</guid>
		<description>“This Sunday, I’m preaching on it’s been 19 days since the election and Hell still has not vomited up the damned and the dead do not walk the Earth. We have a bigger problem. Our Sunday School program sucks.”

OK, that&#039;s freaking hysterical...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“This Sunday, I’m preaching on it’s been 19 days since the election and Hell still has not vomited up the damned and the dead do not walk the Earth. We have a bigger problem. Our Sunday School program sucks.”</p>
<p>OK, that&#8217;s freaking hysterical&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-322651</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-322651</guid>
		<description>Headless Unicorn Guy

&lt;i&gt;This Sunday, I’m preaching on it’s been 19 days since the election and Hell still has not vomited up the damned and the dead do not walk the Earth. We have a bigger problem. Our Sunday School program sucks.&lt;/i&gt;

LOL!!!

I am working on a post on how politics has gotten in the way of the gospel.  Do you mind if I use your quote?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Headless Unicorn Guy</p>
<p><i>This Sunday, I’m preaching on it’s been 19 days since the election and Hell still has not vomited up the damned and the dead do not walk the Earth. We have a bigger problem. Our Sunday School program sucks.</i></p>
<p>LOL!!!</p>
<p>I am working on a post on how politics has gotten in the way of the gospel.  Do you mind if I use your quote?</p>
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		<title>By: quiclime</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-322639</link>
		<dc:creator>quiclime</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-322639</guid>
		<description>I think the human race is starting to wake up to a more precise perception on what&#039;s going on around us. whether that be in far-eastern, Asiatic practices or the stuff like Eckart Tolle pushes. Our love of faith based beliefs is a necessary step in the process and I don&#039;t think they should be viewed as being heretical. I can still feel the hair raise on the back of my neck when I hear &quot;Power In The Blood&quot; while sitting in in some little 100 year old church way out in the woods. I was raised in The Church Of Christ from an early age and those experiences will be with me as long as I live. but sometimes you gotta just move on.  Quiclime: great minds work in similar manners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the human race is starting to wake up to a more precise perception on what&#8217;s going on around us. whether that be in far-eastern, Asiatic practices or the stuff like Eckart Tolle pushes. Our love of faith based beliefs is a necessary step in the process and I don&#8217;t think they should be viewed as being heretical. I can still feel the hair raise on the back of my neck when I hear &#8220;Power In The Blood&#8221; while sitting in in some little 100 year old church way out in the woods. I was raised in The Church Of Christ from an early age and those experiences will be with me as long as I live. but sometimes you gotta just move on.  Quiclime: great minds work in similar manners.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-322622</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-322622</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;well Obama won, if that’s not proof that the church is collapsing, then I don’t know what is (jn)&lt;/i&gt;

Tell me about it.  My writing partner (a burned-out country preacher-man) has had to do his &quot;DON&#039;T GO STUPID ON ME!&quot; sermon three Sundays in a row.  Apparently &quot;Obama won&quot; on top of everything else triggered a major End of the World scare in his area (&quot;Obama IS The Antichrist!&quot; variant), and he&#039;s had to knock some sense into his congregation&#039;s heads.  Like last Sunday&#039;s sermon summary, in his own words:

&quot;The Sunday before the election, I preached on voting your conscience, but make sure you vote.

&quot;Last Sunday, I preached on, Obama ain’t the enemy. Engage worldviews in a respectful, godly manner. It’s what Christ would do.

&quot;This Sunday, I’m preaching on it’s been 19 days since the election and Hell still has not vomited up the damned and the dead do not walk the Earth. We have a bigger problem. Our Sunday School program sucks.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>well Obama won, if that’s not proof that the church is collapsing, then I don’t know what is (jn)</i></p>
<p>Tell me about it.  My writing partner (a burned-out country preacher-man) has had to do his &#8220;DON&#8217;T GO STUPID ON ME!&#8221; sermon three Sundays in a row.  Apparently &#8220;Obama won&#8221; on top of everything else triggered a major End of the World scare in his area (&#8221;Obama IS The Antichrist!&#8221; variant), and he&#8217;s had to knock some sense into his congregation&#8217;s heads.  Like last Sunday&#8217;s sermon summary, in his own words:</p>
<p>&#8220;The Sunday before the election, I preached on voting your conscience, but make sure you vote.</p>
<p>&#8220;Last Sunday, I preached on, Obama ain’t the enemy. Engage worldviews in a respectful, godly manner. It’s what Christ would do.</p>
<p>&#8220;This Sunday, I’m preaching on it’s been 19 days since the election and Hell still has not vomited up the damned and the dead do not walk the Earth. We have a bigger problem. Our Sunday School program sucks.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: J.P.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-322547</link>
		<dc:creator>J.P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-322547</guid>
		<description>well Obama won, if that&#039;s not proof that the church is collapsing, then I don&#039;t know what is (jn)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well Obama won, if that&#8217;s not proof that the church is collapsing, then I don&#8217;t know what is (jn)</p>
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		<title>By: Wezlo</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-321990</link>
		<dc:creator>Wezlo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-321990</guid>
		<description>thanks willoh, now I&#039;m tracking with you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks willoh, now I&#8217;m tracking with you.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommended-wicker-and-duin-on-the-end-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-1#comment-321983</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:42:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2546#comment-321983</guid>
		<description>quiclime: 
We don&#039;t wave our hands at our church too much, even though the worship leaders sometimes encourage us to when we sing. :)

Seriously though, the question here is precisely the content of the &#039;Christian viewpoint&#039;. Systems of thought such as Evangelicalism can easily become archaic when they are removed from the authentic experience that initiated them. Archaic, not in the sense of being old (many old ways of thinking are quite relevant in modern times), but in the sense of being &#039;geriatric&#039;, losing power and purpose. That is the point of this post, as I see it. The evangelical churches have drifted from their roots. That is why iMonk is looking for a &#039;Jesus-shaped&#039; spirituality, because Jesus revealed a new way of thinking and living that has had the power to constantly renew itself. To oppose that to &#039;rationality&#039; as an abstract concept isn&#039;t very helpful, because many forms of rationality, including much modern atheism, are also &#039;archaic&#039; in the sense of having lost their original power and relevance, even if they are not historically very old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>quiclime:<br />
We don&#8217;t wave our hands at our church too much, even though the worship leaders sometimes encourage us to when we sing. <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Seriously though, the question here is precisely the content of the &#8216;Christian viewpoint&#8217;. Systems of thought such as Evangelicalism can easily become archaic when they are removed from the authentic experience that initiated them. Archaic, not in the sense of being old (many old ways of thinking are quite relevant in modern times), but in the sense of being &#8216;geriatric&#8217;, losing power and purpose. That is the point of this post, as I see it. The evangelical churches have drifted from their roots. That is why iMonk is looking for a &#8216;Jesus-shaped&#8217; spirituality, because Jesus revealed a new way of thinking and living that has had the power to constantly renew itself. To oppose that to &#8216;rationality&#8217; as an abstract concept isn&#8217;t very helpful, because many forms of rationality, including much modern atheism, are also &#8216;archaic&#8217; in the sense of having lost their original power and relevance, even if they are not historically very old.</p>
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