Comments on: Recommendation: Is Christianity Good for the World? and A Primer on Worship and Reformation, both by Douglas Wilson http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:36:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Respectabiggle http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-268313 Respectabiggle Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:25:29 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-268313 Molly- what was it that was so harmful about Wilson's view of marriage? We've been moving in that direction over the last few years and it has been nothing but helpful for us. I'm interested in how your experiences differed. Molly- what was it that was so harmful about Wilson’s view of marriage? We’ve been moving in that direction over the last few years and it has been nothing but helpful for us. I’m interested in how your experiences differed.

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-263308 iMonk Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:05:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-263308 I am not here to defend Douglas Wilson's view of marriage by any stretch. <strong>I do not share his views at all</strong>. I also realize that he is far from the first or only evangelical complementarian to have these views. They are common among hundreds of thousands of people who have never heard of Wilson. I review a lot of books and mention a lot of names. I realize that not everyone has had a good experience with some of those persons. That's why I make a serious attempt to make it clear that I don't agree in all things, don't recommend all things and don't want to imply a blanket endorsement. Thanks for the honest response. Appreciated. I am not here to defend Douglas Wilson’s view of marriage by any stretch. I do not share his views at all. I also realize that he is far from the first or only evangelical complementarian to have these views. They are common among hundreds of thousands of people who have never heard of Wilson.

I review a lot of books and mention a lot of names. I realize that not everyone has had a good experience with some of those persons. That’s why I make a serious attempt to make it clear that I don’t agree in all things, don’t recommend all things and don’t want to imply a blanket endorsement.

Thanks for the honest response. Appreciated.

]]> By: Molly http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-263304 Molly Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:00:19 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-263304 We used to be followers of the marriage paradigm Douglas Wilson writes about in his, "Reforming Marraige." Eight years later, we stumbled out of it broken and bleeding. I agree that Wilson brings good things to the table. But his views on women are unbelievably destructive. A man who teaches other men that God views men as the farmer's and women as their field, that they get to choose what will grow and what won't, when it will grow, and what will be weeded, etc, and should do so authoritatively (in that they are called to do such), needs to be recommended with a STRONG caveat, if recommended at all. I've also heard from friends who were once church members. They certainly felt that as the years went by, Wilson's arrogance grew and the teaching's promoted there grew odder... I realize I'm only hearing one side of the story, but they are dear people, and are telling the truth as they saw it. I'm not a fan of banning books, or banning people. But I will say, as an iMonk fan (so much good stuff here!!!!!), that this post made me wince. So much pain in my life has been because of things that Douglas Wilson taught. We used to be followers of the marriage paradigm Douglas Wilson writes about in his, “Reforming Marraige.” Eight years later, we stumbled out of it broken and bleeding.

I agree that Wilson brings good things to the table. But his views on women are unbelievably destructive. A man who teaches other men that God views men as the farmer’s and women as their field, that they get to choose what will grow and what won’t, when it will grow, and what will be weeded, etc, and should do so authoritatively (in that they are called to do such), needs to be recommended with a STRONG caveat, if recommended at all.

I’ve also heard from friends who were once church members. They certainly felt that as the years went by, Wilson’s arrogance grew and the teaching’s promoted there grew odder… I realize I’m only hearing one side of the story, but they are dear people, and are telling the truth as they saw it.

I’m not a fan of banning books, or banning people. But I will say, as an iMonk fan (so much good stuff here!!!!!), that this post made me wince. So much pain in my life has been because of things that Douglas Wilson taught.

]]> By: stan in san diego http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-262502 stan in san diego Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:36:25 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-262502 Peace to you, Steve. As you know, except for a scant mention in Josephus, ALL we know about Jesus is from the Bible. In my past forays into atheism and communism, I couldn't get away from Jesus. I DO believe all that the Bible says about Him and all that He says about it. Perhaps it's the witness of the Holy Spirit. I have the same concerns about the Flood as you but now I have questions, not doubts. Peace to you, Steve. As you know, except for a scant mention in Josephus, ALL we know about Jesus is from the Bible. In my past forays into atheism and communism, I couldn’t get away from Jesus. I DO believe all that the Bible says about Him and all that He says about it. Perhaps it’s the witness of the Holy Spirit.

I have the same concerns about the Flood as you but now I have questions, not doubts.

]]> By: Steve Rowe http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-262359 Steve Rowe Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:36:44 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-262359 Yes Stan but you trust everything that’s said about Jesus? (Even what’s said about him in the bible? Remember there is some very odd stuff in Revelations). I am basically on your side I try to read the whole bible in light of the gospels (yes even Paul) but sometimes it’s a very hard fit. As per Noah’s flood I would like to think there is a core of historical fact there (I once read a fascinating article about what happen when an ice dam melted and flooded the Mediterranean. The image of a waterfall at the strait of Gibraltar taller than Victoria Falls has never left me.) but I am convinced the story is mostly myth (all that stuff about rainbows and two of every animal except off course for those that were need for ritual sacrifice (a system that does not even seem to have been invented/revealed yet!). As I said in my previous post I am uncomfortable about the ambiguity in my position but right now I don’t see any other alterative. Peace Steve in Toronto Yes Stan but you trust everything that’s said about Jesus? (Even what’s said about him in the bible? Remember there is some very odd stuff in Revelations). I am basically on your side I try to read the whole bible in light of the gospels (yes even Paul) but sometimes it’s a very hard fit. As per Noah’s flood I would like to think there is a core of historical fact there (I once read a fascinating article about what happen when an ice dam melted and flooded the Mediterranean. The image of a waterfall at the strait of Gibraltar taller than Victoria Falls has never left me.) but I am convinced the story is mostly myth (all that stuff about rainbows and two of every animal except off course for those that were need for ritual sacrifice (a system that does not even seem to have been invented/revealed yet!). As I said in my previous post I am uncomfortable about the ambiguity in my position but right now I don’t see any other alterative.

Peace

Steve in Toronto

]]> By: Jon S http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-262356 Jon S Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:31:53 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-262356 Just catching up on some of your BLOGS. We think alike Michael. Keep it up. I wrote a new BLOG recently that a couple of your thought threads reminded me of. Here is a link to it: http://spadinofamily.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/the-theology-of-rocky-balboa/ Just catching up on some of your BLOGS. We think alike Michael. Keep it up. I wrote a new BLOG recently that a couple of your thought threads reminded me of. Here is a link to it:

http://spadinofamily.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/the-theology-of-rocky-balboa/

]]> By: stan in san diego http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-262352 stan in san diego Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:16:10 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-262352 Steve, I think that the majority of Scripture would say that Wilson, etc. have a heart problem, not a hermeneutical one. The first is cleverly disguised by the second. I no longer look at "theologies", systematic or otherwise. I have MAJOR problems with the first 11 chapters of Genesis, especially with why God would turn a monstrous beast and murderer like Satan loose on the prize of His creation, most of whom are Ninevites, not knowing their right hand from the left. I've found nothing in Scripture or in any other writings to help. In fact, the problem has only intensified. Therefore, I rest in Luke 15, which has 3 wonderful stories about a woman, who lost a coin, a shepherd, who lost one of his sheep and a father, who lost his son. That is enough for me. I hang on to those stories and the fact that I absolutely believe in the virgin birth, sinless life, death on the cross and resurrection of Jesus...for me. I had memorized John 3:16 by the age of 3 and no theology or hermeneutic is going to cause me to reinterpret it. If God doesn't love every person in the world and Christ died only for the few, then I will convert to a hearty, uproarious, freeing, know-nothing agnosticism. By the way, it was while living in Arizona that I became convinced of the historicity of the Noaic flood. I could easily see the waters rushing to the sea leaving a giant gorge and depositing layer after layer of sediment, etc. That and the fact that Jesus treated it as historical. I ABSOLUTELY trust Jesus!! Steve,

I think that the majority of Scripture would say that Wilson, etc. have a heart problem, not a hermeneutical one. The first is cleverly disguised by the second.

I no longer look at “theologies”, systematic or otherwise. I have MAJOR problems with the first 11 chapters of Genesis, especially with why God would turn a monstrous beast and murderer like Satan loose on the prize of His creation, most of whom are Ninevites, not knowing their right hand from the left. I’ve found nothing in Scripture or in any other writings to help. In fact, the problem has only intensified. Therefore, I rest in Luke 15, which has 3 wonderful stories about a woman, who lost a coin, a shepherd, who lost one of his sheep and a father, who lost his son. That is enough for me. I hang on to those stories and the fact that I absolutely believe in the virgin birth, sinless life, death on the cross and resurrection of Jesus…for me. I had memorized John 3:16 by the age of 3 and no theology or hermeneutic is going to cause me to reinterpret it. If God doesn’t love every person in the world and Christ died only for the few, then I will convert to a hearty, uproarious, freeing, know-nothing agnosticism.

By the way, it was while living in Arizona that I became convinced of the historicity of the Noaic flood. I could easily see the waters rushing to the sea leaving a giant gorge and depositing layer after layer of sediment, etc. That and the fact that Jesus treated it as historical. I ABSOLUTELY trust Jesus!!

]]> By: Steve Rowe http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-262299 Steve Rowe Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:43:07 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-262299 This discution has suggested a question that has preoccupied me ever since I lost my faith in a literal reading of geneses (it accrued have way down the grand canyon on a high school science trip) How important is it to have a coherent theology/world view? Our host Michael has no problem picking and choosing from among a vast number theological traditions like a golfer picking the right club for each hole. Men like Douglas Wilson are purist and true believers who are so committed to a particular hermeneutic that they will follow it almost every where. I have a number of deep seated cultural prejudices that are deeply at odds with mainstream conservative evangelical Christianity (among them: leadership in family life should be consensual and egalitarian and that evolutionally biology basically has it right and that I should not make it my top priority to convince my Jewish friends that they are going to hell). My father (a conservative Presbyterian) accuses me of having a basically incoherent theology. He’s right but I don’t know how else I can continue to call my self a Christian and at the same time maintain any kind of intellectual and spiritual integrity. Peace Steve This discution has suggested a question that has preoccupied me ever since I lost my faith in a literal reading of geneses (it accrued have way down the grand canyon on a high school science trip) How important is it to have a coherent theology/world view? Our host Michael has no problem picking and choosing from among a vast number theological traditions like a golfer picking the right club for each hole. Men like Douglas Wilson are purist and true believers who are so committed to a particular hermeneutic that they will follow it almost every where. I have a number of deep seated cultural prejudices that are deeply at odds with mainstream conservative evangelical Christianity (among them: leadership in family life should be consensual and egalitarian and that evolutionally biology basically has it right and that I should not make it my top priority to convince my Jewish friends that they are going to hell). My father (a conservative Presbyterian) accuses me of having a basically incoherent theology. He’s right but I don’t know how else I can continue to call my self a Christian and at the same time maintain any kind of intellectual and spiritual integrity.

Peace

Steve

]]> By: stan in san diego http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-262021 stan in san diego Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:10:24 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-262021 The problem, Peaches, is that Doug Wilson, Steve Wilkins, etc. would not consider those past sins to be sins at all. R.L. Dabney said that emancipation was the sin. Mr. Wilkins, the co-author of 'Slavery, As It Was...' with Doug Wilson, is a southern nationalist along with many others. Their stated goal is to restore southern culture and have the South secede from the Union. Mr. Wilson states that he would have fought for the South and would do so again. So, appeals to past sins or that slavery was an old problem (everybody does it) dont work on these folks. They have no shame over slavery or Jim Crow, etc. Mr. Wilson needs to openly repent and separate himself from these kind of people, all of whom call themselves Christians. And we need to stop praising whatever else they write pausing only to be "puzzled" about their views about the Confederacy. I refer again to James. The problem, Peaches, is that Doug Wilson, Steve Wilkins, etc. would not consider those past sins to be sins at all. R.L. Dabney said that emancipation was the sin. Mr. Wilkins, the co-author of ‘Slavery, As It Was…’ with Doug Wilson, is a southern nationalist along with many others. Their stated goal is to restore southern culture and have the South secede from the Union. Mr. Wilson states that he would have fought for the South and would do so again. So, appeals to past sins or that slavery was an old problem (everybody does it) dont work on these folks. They have no shame over slavery or Jim Crow, etc. Mr. Wilson needs to openly repent and separate himself from these kind of people, all of whom call themselves Christians. And we need to stop praising whatever else they write pausing only to be “puzzled” about their views about the Confederacy. I refer again to James.

]]> By: Peaches http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-is-christianity-good-for-the-world-and-a-primer-on-worship-and-reformation-both-by-douglas-wilson/comment-page-1#comment-261986 Peaches Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:56:43 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2188#comment-261986 It is certainly true that people in the United States were racists and before that racist slaveholders. They were Christians too. Just like believers today, they are susceptible to arguments that reinforce what is easy and comfortable for them. I don't know that it's particularly a Calvinistic sin... the Episcopal English allowed Irish to starve in the famines. Listing the sins of Christians is a parlor game for some. It's not even particularly a Christian since the great genocides of the last century were collectivist or totalitarian in origin. Not to excuse the past at all. But it's easy to take false comfort in believing that these sins of the past are beyond us. It's also a danger to brand everyone with the sins of some of the adherents of Calvinism or any other doctrine. The remedy in my view is a humble focus on Jesus and the gospels. It's a powerful counterbalance to our reason and our comfort as Jesus leaves us off balance and dependent on him. It is certainly true that people in the United States were racists and before that racist slaveholders. They were Christians too. Just like believers today, they are susceptible to arguments that reinforce what is easy and comfortable for them. I don’t know that it’s particularly a Calvinistic sin… the Episcopal English allowed Irish to starve in the famines. Listing the sins of Christians is a parlor game for some.
It’s not even particularly a Christian since the great genocides of the last century were collectivist or totalitarian in origin.
Not to excuse the past at all. But it’s easy to take false comfort in believing that these sins of the past are beyond us. It’s also a danger to brand everyone with the sins of some of the adherents of Calvinism or any other doctrine.
The remedy in my view is a humble focus on Jesus and the gospels. It’s a powerful counterbalance to our reason and our comfort as Jesus leaves us off balance and dependent on him.

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