Comments on: Recommendation and Review: The End of Religion by Bruxy Cavey http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:17:18 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Me http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-333205 Me Fri, 12 Dec 2008 03:32:49 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-333205 I wonder why Christians need to be judging other Christians, rather than focusing on the task that Jesus left for us to do... go and make disciples. I wonder why Christians need to be judging other Christians, rather than focusing on the task that Jesus left for us to do… go and make disciples.

]]> By: Jordan Berta http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-213569 Jordan Berta Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:41:51 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-213569 I'm sorry about posting the same comment twice, the second one has one extra sentence. I’m sorry about posting the same comment twice, the second one has one extra sentence.

]]> By: Jordan Berta http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-213568 Jordan Berta Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:41:04 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-213568 I really enjoyed reading this stream and appreciate that Bruxy responded to your comments. I attend The Meeting House on a regular basis and really enjoy the multi-site method. It is much easier for me to walk for ten minutes to get to the downtown site than to drive to Oakville for a sunday service. Someone had said that they would prefer for churches to be 300-500 people. That is the case with The Meeting House. When they reach capasity they launch a new site (i.e. Hamilton)so that there is always a "smaller church" feel and still have their "mega-church" attendance. In regards to the "cult of personality" although Bruxy is the primary teacher there are many other people (both paid and volunteers) that contribute to the community of Christ Followers in a public way (i.e. Lead Pastors, Music Directors at each site).On top of that more people to take ownership and leadership within the body of beleivers. I really enjoyed reading this stream and appreciate that Bruxy responded to your comments. I attend The Meeting House on a regular basis and really enjoy the multi-site method. It is much easier for me to walk for ten minutes to get to the downtown site than to drive to Oakville for a sunday service. Someone had said that they would prefer for churches to be 300-500 people. That is the case with The Meeting House. When they reach capasity they launch a new site (i.e. Hamilton)so that there is always a “smaller church” feel and still have their “mega-church” attendance. In regards to the “cult of personality” although Bruxy is the primary teacher there are many other people (both paid and volunteers) that contribute to the community of Christ Followers in a public way (i.e. Lead Pastors, Music Directors at each site).On top of that more people to take ownership and leadership within the body of beleivers.

]]> By: Eddy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-212713 Eddy Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:23:55 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-212713 Wondering if Bruxy, or anyone who's read his book, would like to comment on where "End of Religion" comes down on Bonhoeffer's religion-less Christianity. Just curious b/c it was one of the first things I thought of, but according to the review Bonhoeffer's not mentioned. Gracias. By the way, I do plan to rustle up a copy of the book for myself. Wondering if Bruxy, or anyone who’s read his book, would like to comment on where “End of Religion” comes down on Bonhoeffer’s religion-less Christianity. Just curious b/c it was one of the first things I thought of, but according to the review Bonhoeffer’s not mentioned. Gracias.

By the way, I do plan to rustle up a copy of the book for myself.

]]> By: Steve Rowe http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-207120 Steve Rowe Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:22:50 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-207120 P.S. I want to make this very clear: Bruxy Cavey and the Meeting House have been a great blessing to me personally and to the entire city of Toronto. God is blessing him and his ministry greatly and I and (I am sure) thousands of other Christians are vastly in his debt. P.S. I want to make this very clear: Bruxy Cavey and the Meeting House have been a great blessing to me personally and to the entire city of Toronto. God is blessing him and his ministry greatly and I and (I am sure) thousands of other Christians are vastly in his debt.

]]> By: Steve Rowe http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-207116 Steve Rowe Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:07:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-207116 Wow I feel privileged to get this chance to dialog with Bruxy. First I want to make it clear that while I understand that “Emergent” is a dirty word in some circles but I am over whelming in favor of the movement (In all it’s various flavors and permutations). In my original post I described Bruxy as “Emergent in the best sense of the word” and I stand by that description. I am also a burned out recovering evangelical who grew up in a Church that grew from about 4 families to a congregation of almost 3,000 and was a early adopter to the “small house group” model (my parents hosted one for almost 20 years). My experience maybe limited (two different churches two different small groups) and in both cases I was blessed by superior bible teaching (first by my father and later by a Wycliffe Seminary PHD candidate). But frankly I much prefer the 10:00 in the morning model of Adult Sunday School. Meeting the same 12 people (who are almost invariably just like you) once a week at someone’s house is just not the same as the mix of age, class and spiritual maturity you find in the basement of your typical neibourhood church on Sunday morning or Wednesday night. My reference to a “Cult of Personality” was needlessly inflammatory. The large church built around the personality of a charismatic preacher has sadly been the dominate model in the evangelical church for over a hundred years (try thinking about Redeemer Presbyterian without thinking about Tim Keller) I don’t like it but in this respect the Meeting House is nothing new. What really troubles about the Meeting house is the multi-site model. A monoculture is not good for the agriculture and it’s not good for the gospel. What we need is a lot more midsized neibourhood churches and I am afraid that this is only going to happen is if large successful Churches like the Meeting House sift there focuses from building up there own ministries and instead work to create healthy denominations. My understanding is that on any given Sunday there are more people worshiping at the various Meeting House’s than in all the other Brethren in Christ Churches in Canada combined and I can’t believe that this is a healthy situation. I am probably being unfair to the Meeting House it’s no different from hundreds of other successful Churches but the kind of congregations that I love (the kind that were the dominate expression of Christianity in Europe and North America for over three hundred years) are dieing out and I grieve for them. Wow I feel privileged to get this chance to dialog with Bruxy. First I want to make it clear that while I understand that “Emergent” is a dirty word in some circles but I am over whelming in favor of the movement (In all it’s various flavors and permutations). In my original post I described Bruxy as “Emergent in the best sense of the word” and I stand by that description. I am also a burned out recovering evangelical who grew up in a Church that grew from about 4 families to a congregation of almost 3,000 and was a early adopter to the “small house group” model (my parents hosted one for almost 20 years). My experience maybe limited (two different churches two different small groups) and in both cases I was blessed by superior bible teaching (first by my father and later by a Wycliffe Seminary PHD candidate). But frankly I much prefer the 10:00 in the morning model of Adult Sunday School. Meeting the same 12 people (who are almost invariably just like you) once a week at someone’s house is just not the same as the mix of age, class and spiritual maturity you find in the basement of your typical neibourhood church on Sunday morning or Wednesday night.
My reference to a “Cult of Personality” was needlessly inflammatory. The large church built around the personality of a charismatic preacher has sadly been the dominate model in the evangelical church for over a hundred years (try thinking about Redeemer Presbyterian without thinking about Tim Keller) I don’t like it but in this respect the Meeting House is nothing new. What really troubles about the Meeting house is the multi-site model. A monoculture is not good for the agriculture and it’s not good for the gospel. What we need is a lot more midsized neibourhood churches and I am afraid that this is only going to happen is if large successful Churches like the Meeting House sift there focuses from building up there own ministries and instead work to create healthy denominations. My understanding is that on any given Sunday there are more people worshiping at the various Meeting House’s than in all the other Brethren in Christ Churches in Canada combined and I can’t believe that this is a healthy situation. I am probably being unfair to the Meeting House it’s no different from hundreds of other successful Churches but the kind of congregations that I love (the kind that were the dominate expression of Christianity in Europe and North America for over three hundred years) are dieing out and I grieve for them.

]]> By: Bruxy Cavey http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-206797 Bruxy Cavey Wed, 05 Mar 2008 06:33:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-206797 Thanks for bugging them Simon. Way to go. Steve, thanks for your comments. Just to clarify a few points... a) I do use the term "Christ-follower" to clarify "Christian", but not to the exclusion of it. I also call myself a "Christian". I'm not trying to create a new category, but simply emphasize what a "Christian" should be - someone who follows Christ. b) About the Emergent thing, I guess I need someone to explain what makes someone (like me?) "emergent" rather than just plain ol' ordinary Anabaptist (which is how we see ourselves). I sometimes feel like over the last few years someone came up with a new term that is meaningless to me (like "goozblab") and then started telling me that our church is "goozblab". Then other Christians started getting mad at us because they heard that our church is "goozblab". And now I can't see the good that has come out of the whole debate. Our church policy and theology is primitive Anabaptist - that is far more our identity than being or not being "emergent". Why not use that label moreso? It describes us with more clarity and accuracy and has been around a lot longer. c) Our "daughter churches" are started by our own people who want to share their church experience with others in their own communities. We are not holding them back but serving their requests, which includes tracking with the same teaching as the other sites all together. It is not really about being big, but about offering a shared learning experience across a region. So, friends at two different ends of the city can attend Sunday services in their own areas and then still compare notes at work on Monday and in their Home Churches during the week. It is not the only way to do church of course, but I'm not sure why this way is seen as inferior or somehow suspect. d) Is a cult of personality only so if the church is large? Can not a small church have a cult of personality surrounding their pastor? (It seems to me that more destructive pseudo-Christian cults begin in smaller, not larger settings.) I teach 70% of our Sundays and we are working toward 60%. We have other great teachers on staff who teach the other 30-40%, as well as all mid-week or special events. I am also not in a position of singular authority in our church - I am not the equivalent of what some churches call a "senior pastor". I am the teaching pastor, and sit on a team of overseers who steer our church and to whome I am accountable along with our other pastors. I do not "run the show" or "drive the boat". I teach (and serve behind the scenes in leadership development). That's it. Team leadership, not singular pastoral power leadership, is part of our DNA. e) We actually do work hard to offer whatever help, encouragement, and/or training we can to other Brethren In Christ churches (or any denomination that asks). Our pastoral team is regularly invited (and we accept) to work with other pastors and/or churches in a particular area. We're doing our best to be a healthy support to the Body of Christ without assuming that we have all the answers for other churches. Enough for now. How did I get into this? Shaking my head. Peace, Brux Thanks for bugging them Simon. Way to go.

Steve, thanks for your comments. Just to clarify a few points…

a) I do use the term “Christ-follower” to clarify “Christian”, but not to the exclusion of it. I also call myself a “Christian”. I’m not trying to create a new category, but simply emphasize what a “Christian” should be – someone who follows Christ.

b) About the Emergent thing, I guess I need someone to explain what makes someone (like me?) “emergent” rather than just plain ol’ ordinary Anabaptist (which is how we see ourselves). I sometimes feel like over the last few years someone came up with a new term that is meaningless to me (like “goozblab”) and then started telling me that our church is “goozblab”. Then other Christians started getting mad at us because they heard that our church is “goozblab”. And now I can’t see the good that has come out of the whole debate. Our church policy and theology is primitive Anabaptist – that is far more our identity than being or not being “emergent”. Why not use that label moreso? It describes us with more clarity and accuracy and has been around a lot longer.

c) Our “daughter churches” are started by our own people who want to share their church experience with others in their own communities. We are not holding them back but serving their requests, which includes tracking with the same teaching as the other sites all together. It is not really about being big, but about offering a shared learning experience across a region. So, friends at two different ends of the city can attend Sunday services in their own areas and then still compare notes at work on Monday and in their Home Churches during the week. It is not the only way to do church of course, but I’m not sure why this way is seen as inferior or somehow suspect.

d) Is a cult of personality only so if the church is large? Can not a small church have a cult of personality surrounding their pastor? (It seems to me that more destructive pseudo-Christian cults begin in smaller, not larger settings.) I teach 70% of our Sundays and we are working toward 60%. We have other great teachers on staff who teach the other 30-40%, as well as all mid-week or special events. I am also not in a position of singular authority in our church – I am not the equivalent of what some churches call a “senior pastor”. I am the teaching pastor, and sit on a team of overseers who steer our church and to whome I am accountable along with our other pastors. I do not “run the show” or “drive the boat”. I teach (and serve behind the scenes in leadership development). That’s it. Team leadership, not singular pastoral power leadership, is part of our DNA.

e) We actually do work hard to offer whatever help, encouragement, and/or training we can to other Brethren In Christ churches (or any denomination that asks). Our pastoral team is regularly invited (and we accept) to work with other pastors and/or churches in a particular area. We’re doing our best to be a healthy support to the Body of Christ without assuming that we have all the answers for other churches.

Enough for now. How did I get into this? Shaking my head.

Peace,

Brux

]]> By: Simon http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-206298 Simon Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:46:42 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-206298 My church is quite close to the meeting house in downtown totonto and we lost a bunch of college age people to his church. But I am not complaining. To me if Bruxy can get a bunch of twenty something starbuck drinking kids to listen to a biblical message for an hour every week, I am not going to stop him. The only question I ask the kids I ran into from out church when I visit the meeting house (scout the competition, just kdding) ,"Are you joining the home churches?" I'll bug them if they don't. My church is quite close to the meeting house in downtown totonto and we lost a bunch of college age people to his church. But I am not complaining. To me if Bruxy can get a bunch of twenty something starbuck drinking kids to listen to a biblical message for an hour every week, I am not going to stop him. The only question I ask the kids I ran into from out church when I visit the meeting house (scout the competition, just kdding) ,”Are you joining the home churches?” I’ll bug them if they don’t.

]]> By: Steve Rowe http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-206250 Steve Rowe Mon, 03 Mar 2008 17:56:15 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-206250 Hi Michael My dyslexia is showing can you change how to who in paragraph 3 and with to wish in the last paragraph. Also be sure to check out Father Matthew Presents and what does a guy have to do to get past the boucer at the Boarshead Tavern? I would love to join your club. Cheers Steve Rowe Toronto P.S. Don't Post this addendum inless you would like to make me look like an idiot. If you do go ahead! Hi Michael

My dyslexia is showing can you change how to who in paragraph 3 and with to wish in the last paragraph. Also be sure to check out Father Matthew Presents and what does a guy have to do to get past the boucer at the Boarshead Tavern? I would love to join your club.

Cheers

Steve Rowe
Toronto

P.S. Don’t Post this addendum inless you would like to make me look like an idiot. If you do go ahead!

]]> By: Steve Rowe http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey/comment-page-1#comment-206243 Steve Rowe Mon, 03 Mar 2008 17:26:12 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-the-end-of-religion-by-bruxy-cavey#comment-206243 I don’t want to turn this into a beat up on Bruxy thread or debate the current state of Calvinism in Toronto’s Evangelical community. It’s been 15 years since I regularly attended a “Classical Evangelical Church” 20 years if you don’t count the time I spent at the very Low Church and very Reformed Anglican Little Trinity so much of my personal experience is out of date although all of my immediate family and many of my friends are still very plugged into the seen and we do talk about these issues quite a lot (try making the sign of the cross at a funeral in a Fellowship Baptist Church and see what happens especially when you’re a pole bearer!). I have also had a lot of exposure to Toronto’s Dutch Reformed community but to tell the truth the descendents of Dr. T. T. Shields at Toronto Baptist Semenary seem to me to be far more serious about there Calvinism’s then the professors at ICS (Toronto’s Dutch Reformed Graduate School) Bruxy’s comments do touch on something I did not mention in my original comment: He is funny about labels. Sorry Bruxy you are a Christian (yes you are also a Christ follower) and your refusal to label your self as such make it seem as if you are ashamed of the rest of us (I know I am too but its bad form to make it so obvious). If you don’t want to call yourself emergent I don’t really care but if it quacks like a duck… My main point on the ripple effect of the Meeting house on smaller churches still stands however. Bruxy’s right that small house groups do address many of the problems that are endemic in large churches but they are not a cure all. Often times they simply intutionalize cliquishness and the quality of bible study in these groups is typically very uneven (I have the same problem with video taped bible studies as I do with sermons on TV). I would also be curious about Bruxy’s definition of “un-churched” in my experience most church growth types define it as someone how has not been to church for 6 month. It may be 60% of the meeting houses new members are “authentic pagans” (lord know there are plenty of them around Toronto) but somehow I doubt it. It’s not Bruxy’s fault that he is probably the best preacher in a 100mile radius but I do find the cult of personality growing up around him unsettling. My old Church Little Trinity recently conducted a “Church graft” where they sent there excellent Curate (assistant priest) off to a dieing Anglican church across town with 60 or so parishioners from his old church. The result is two vibrant healthy churches each with close ties to there local neighborhoods and distant identitys. It’s a model of Church growth that I wish more large churches would consider I am convinced the optimal size for a Church in a urban environment is somewhere between 300 and 500 people. Like I said before I am a Bruxy Cavey fan. I just with he would cut his daughter churches apron strings and let there associate pastors develop there own identitys. Or better yet reinfect a few of old and tired Brethren, Baptist, Mennonite (or God Forbid Anglican) Churches with some of The Meeting Houses innovative zeal. I don’t want to turn this into a beat up on Bruxy thread or debate the current state of Calvinism in Toronto’s Evangelical community. It’s been 15 years since I regularly attended a “Classical Evangelical Church” 20 years if you don’t count the time I spent at the very Low Church and very Reformed Anglican Little Trinity so much of my personal experience is out of date although all of my immediate family and many of my friends are still very plugged into the seen and we do talk about these issues quite a lot (try making the sign of the cross at a funeral in a Fellowship Baptist Church and see what happens especially when you’re a pole bearer!). I have also had a lot of exposure to Toronto’s Dutch Reformed community but to tell the truth the descendents of Dr. T. T. Shields at Toronto Baptist Semenary seem to me to be far more serious about there Calvinism’s then the professors at ICS (Toronto’s Dutch Reformed Graduate School)

Bruxy’s comments do touch on something I did not mention in my original comment: He is funny about labels. Sorry Bruxy you are a Christian (yes you are also a Christ follower) and your refusal to label your self as such make it seem as if you are ashamed of the rest of us (I know I am too but its bad form to make it so obvious). If you don’t want to call yourself emergent I don’t really care but if it quacks like a duck…

My main point on the ripple effect of the Meeting house on smaller churches still stands however. Bruxy’s right that small house groups do address many of the problems that are endemic in large churches but they are not a cure all. Often times they simply intutionalize cliquishness and the quality of bible study in these groups is typically very uneven (I have the same problem with video taped bible studies as I do with sermons on TV). I would also be curious about Bruxy’s definition of “un-churched” in my experience most church growth types define it as someone how has not been to church for 6 month. It may be 60% of the meeting houses new members are “authentic pagans” (lord know there are plenty of them around Toronto) but somehow I doubt it.

It’s not Bruxy’s fault that he is probably the best preacher in a 100mile radius but I do find the cult of personality growing up around him unsettling. My old Church Little Trinity recently conducted a “Church graft” where they sent there excellent Curate (assistant priest) off to a dieing Anglican church across town with 60 or so parishioners from his old church. The result is two vibrant healthy churches each with close ties to there local neighborhoods and distant identitys. It’s a model of Church growth that I wish more large churches would consider I am convinced the optimal size for a Church in a urban environment is somewhere between 300 and 500 people.

Like I said before I am a Bruxy Cavey fan. I just with he would cut his daughter churches apron strings and let there associate pastors develop there own identitys. Or better yet reinfect a few of old and tired Brethren, Baptist, Mennonite (or God Forbid Anglican) Churches with some of The Meeting Houses innovative zeal.

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