Comments on: Recommendation and Review: Pocket Dictionary of Liturgy and Worship by Brett Scott Provance http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:25:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Richard Hershberger http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518407 Richard Hershberger Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:55:52 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518407 I have been Lutheran all my life. The idea of a Lutheran, especially a theologically oriented Lutheran, disclaiming the category of being "Protestant" is entirely outside my experience. I have been told by Evangelicals that Lutherans aren't really Protestant. My understanding is that the idea is that we are too much like the Catholics. I tend to break out in giggles at the notion. As for why one doesn't see "Protestant" on church signs, this is because "Protestant" doesn't give as much useful information as "Lutheran" or "Methodist" or "Four Square Gospel" or what have you. A member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America might add a discussion of how "Evangelical" doesn't mean the same thing in this context as it does elsewhere, but that is a different discussion. I have been Lutheran all my life. The idea of a Lutheran, especially a theologically oriented Lutheran, disclaiming the category of being “Protestant” is entirely outside my experience. I have been told by Evangelicals that Lutherans aren’t really Protestant. My understanding is that the idea is that we are too much like the Catholics. I tend to break out in giggles at the notion.

As for why one doesn’t see “Protestant” on church signs, this is because “Protestant” doesn’t give as much useful information as “Lutheran” or “Methodist” or “Four Square Gospel” or what have you.

A member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America might add a discussion of how “Evangelical” doesn’t mean the same thing in this context as it does elsewhere, but that is a different discussion.

]]> By: Tim http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518361 Tim Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:18:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518361 iMonk says- You don’t have to live in this kind of humiliation. IVP has published the Pocket Dictionary of Liturgy and Worship by Brett Scott Provance, a wonderfully comprehensive resource that won’t cost you a semester’s tuition and will provide you with all the liturgical information you need to actually know what your Anglican and Lutheran friends are talking about when they say “rubric.” *Snickers* I found this phrase very amusing. Heck, I could use this. Even as a cradle-Lutheran, I still get confused by Pastors throwing about fancy words like "rubric". Things like chasuble, thurifer, and Ad Orientem, I get. But a rubric- my mind is boggled! ;) iMonk says- You don’t have to live in this kind of humiliation. IVP has published the Pocket Dictionary of Liturgy and Worship by Brett Scott Provance, a wonderfully comprehensive resource that won’t cost you a semester’s tuition and will provide you with all the liturgical information you need to actually know what your Anglican and Lutheran friends are talking about when they say “rubric.”

*Snickers* I found this phrase very amusing. Heck, I could use this. Even as a cradle-Lutheran, I still get confused by Pastors throwing about fancy words like “rubric”. Things like chasuble, thurifer, and Ad Orientem, I get. But a rubric- my mind is boggled! ;)

]]> By: JoanieD http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518264 JoanieD Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:28:31 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518264 Nathan, I realize my last reply to you was too brief. I am not able to attend church or Mass very often at all due to my family situation. If that was the only time I could encounter God, I would be in big trouble! But no, due to the Holy Spirit, God is closer to us than our very breath. But, due to being so busy with our daily lives, we forget that. It takes prayer to remind us how close God is to us. Jesus told us to pray privately and God would reward us. Matthew 6:6: "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV) I am so happy that this is true. Nathan, I realize my last reply to you was too brief. I am not able to attend church or Mass very often at all due to my family situation. If that was the only time I could encounter God, I would be in big trouble! But no, due to the Holy Spirit, God is closer to us than our very breath. But, due to being so busy with our daily lives, we forget that. It takes prayer to remind us how close God is to us. Jesus told us to pray privately and God would reward us. Matthew 6:6: “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” (NIV) I am so happy that this is true.

]]> By: JoanieD http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518195 JoanieD Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:34:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518195 Greg, Dolan, and Pastor M...thanks for the chuckles on playing with with the word "baldachino." Word play can be lots of fun! Greg, Dolan, and Pastor M…thanks for the chuckles on playing with with the word “baldachino.” Word play can be lots of fun!

]]> By: JoanieD http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518194 JoanieD Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:30:50 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518194 Nathan said, "Nevertheless we are free in Christ, so you are free to use your group’s service or not, He did not prescribe a group or form, He simply gave Himself for us, and to us. Life in Christ is so much more. Communion with Him is so much more. Go deeper with Him." Oh, yes, Nathan, don't worry, I have "gone deeper" with Jesus. You have no idea how deep. We really have no idea how deep any of us have gone with Jesus. Only God knows and that is where it should remain. Nathan said, “Nevertheless we are free in Christ, so you are free to use your group’s service or not, He did not prescribe a group or form, He simply gave Himself for us, and to us. Life in Christ is so much more. Communion with Him is so much more.
Go deeper with Him.”

Oh, yes, Nathan, don’t worry, I have “gone deeper” with Jesus. You have no idea how deep. We really have no idea how deep any of us have gone with Jesus. Only God knows and that is where it should remain.

]]> By: Martha http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518184 Martha Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:25:23 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518184 JoanieD, I get all my theology out of Dante's "Divine Comedy", and since he has not only pagans but fictional characters* in heaven, I'm a very shaky guide to what we officially believe :-) (*That is, Ripheus the Trojan, a character from Virgil's "Aeneid", is in the sixth sphere, that of Jupiter, the heaven of the just). JoanieD, I get all my theology out of Dante’s “Divine Comedy”, and since he has not only pagans but fictional characters* in heaven, I’m a very shaky guide to what we officially believe :-)

(*That is, Ripheus the Trojan, a character from Virgil’s “Aeneid”, is in the sixth sphere, that of Jupiter, the heaven of the just).

]]> By: Martha http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518181 Martha Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:20:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518181 JoanieD, just think of all the other things we don't know we are/aren't! ;-) JoanieD, just think of all the other things we don’t know we are/aren’t! ;-)

]]> By: Nathan http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518170 Nathan Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:36:17 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518170 JoanieD; One of the persistent themes for the Old Testament prophets was how the people would observe all of the appointed feasts and solemn gatherings, but their hearts were far from God. Just carrying out a ritual, even one whose words were lifted directly from the Bible, carries little weight in God’s sight if the participants hearts are dark and cold. We live in a time when people are running around trying to find the right group, trying to say the right words, trying to follow the right leaders. Humans have a history of settling for non-genuine things, particularly in the realm of religion. But as long as we are comfortable with the words being said and the claims of the leaders we join forces with them. To make myself perfectly clear, I am speaking of the way that people trust in their “church”, their leaders, even in their form of worship. This is putting the cart before the horse, there is only one who is trustworthy and that is Jesus, and there is only one church, those who love Him, and walk with Him. If we are not communing with the Lord in our hearts it does not matter who we meet with or what words we recite. The Lord never said take communion with grape juice and crackers, He never said wear golden or white robes, He never told us to regard the minister as being on a higher level than us. He never even said only use matzo and wine (the traditional passover elements). The deal is He gave us a fantastic gift, communion with Him in the Spirit, and here we are wandering about in shadow land mumbling the same words every time we come together. The familiar is comfortable to the flesh. Communion with God is what happens in the heart. If Jesus is in your heart, as He said He would be if you invite Him in, then the right words and the right elements have little bearing on the case. Using just the right words and the perfect actions only makes sense if you are not hearing Him and you are religiously striving to preserve the last things which He did in His earthly ministry. Yet He is not still in that tomb and He is perfectly capable of speaking to you in whatever situation you find yourself in. Communion with Him is an ongoing living thing and freezing it on paper is like taking a snapshot of a baby and saying, thirty years on, that this is what this fellow looks like. So using the missal (I think that’s what it is called) or the book of common prayer (what I’m familiar with) or the order of service of any number of others, has become a case of people clinging to what they think is a memorial of the Lord’s Supper without digging deeper. Nevertheless we are free in Christ, so you are free to use your group’s service or not, He did not prescribe a group or form, He simply gave Himself for us, and to us. Life in Christ is so much more. Communion with Him is so much more. Go deeper with Him. JoanieD;
One of the persistent themes for the Old Testament prophets was how the people would observe all of the appointed feasts and solemn gatherings, but their hearts were far from God. Just carrying out a ritual, even one whose words were lifted directly from the Bible, carries little weight in God’s sight if the participants hearts are dark and cold.
We live in a time when people are running around trying to find the right group, trying to say the right words, trying to follow the right leaders. Humans have a history of settling for non-genuine things, particularly in the realm of religion. But as long as we are comfortable with the words being said and the claims of the leaders we join forces with them.
To make myself perfectly clear, I am speaking of the way that people trust in their “church”, their leaders, even in their form of worship. This is putting the cart before the horse, there is only one who is trustworthy and that is Jesus, and there is only one church, those who love Him, and walk with Him. If we are not communing with the Lord in our hearts it does not matter who we meet with or what words we recite.

The Lord never said take communion with grape juice and crackers, He never said wear golden or white robes, He never told us to regard the minister as being on a higher level than us. He never even said only use matzo and wine (the traditional passover elements). The deal is He gave us a fantastic gift, communion with Him in the Spirit, and here we are wandering about in shadow land mumbling the same words every time we come together. The familiar is comfortable to the flesh.

Communion with God is what happens in the heart. If Jesus is in your heart, as He said He would be if you invite Him in, then the right words and the right elements have little bearing on the case. Using just the right words and the perfect actions only makes sense if you are not hearing Him and you are religiously striving to preserve the last things which He did in His earthly ministry. Yet He is not still in that tomb and He is perfectly capable of speaking to you in whatever situation you find yourself in. Communion with Him is an ongoing living thing and freezing it on paper is like taking a snapshot of a baby and saying, thirty years on, that this is what this fellow looks like.
So using the missal (I think that’s what it is called) or the book of common prayer (what I’m familiar with) or the order of service of any number of others, has become a case of people clinging to what they think is a memorial of the Lord’s Supper without digging deeper.
Nevertheless we are free in Christ, so you are free to use your group’s service or not, He did not prescribe a group or form, He simply gave Himself for us, and to us.
Life in Christ is so much more. Communion with Him is so much more.
Go deeper with Him.

]]> By: Joel http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518152 Joel Sat, 07 Nov 2009 15:39:46 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518152 I am Protestant and proud! I think we should bring the term back because it is far more useful than "evangelical" which I think is meaningless now. I am Protestant and proud! I think we should bring the term back because it is far more useful than “evangelical” which I think is meaningless now.

]]> By: JoanieD http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/recommendation-and-review-pocket-dictionary-of-liturgy-and-worship-by-brett-scott-provance/comment-page-1#comment-518073 JoanieD Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:41:43 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4986#comment-518073 Austin, when I was spending time many years ago with a non-denominational, charismatic evangelical group, I used the Thompson chain reference Bible. I still have it. Very useful item. (I had to look again what Martha said we Catholics are in terms of the millenial thing. I just can't keep that straight!) Austin, when I was spending time many years ago with a non-denominational, charismatic evangelical group, I used the Thompson chain reference Bible. I still have it. Very useful item. (I had to look again what Martha said we Catholics are in terms of the millenial thing. I just can’t keep that straight!)

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