Prosperity Gospel: Yes or No?
You decide. Here is a collection of statements, products, ministries, etc. Some of them are the Prosperity “Gospel” while some are not.
What do you think?
1. Christian financial ministries like Crown and Dave Ramsey.
2. The movie “Facing The Giants.”
3. If you tithe, God will pay all of your other bills.
4. The Prayer of Jabez. (Prayer the prayer and God will expand your territory.)
5. Joel Osteen. (Have a good attitude, think positive, be nice and God will show you favor.)
6. Jesus: Ask whatever you will in my name, and it will be done unto you. If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can move a mountain.
7. I don’t need health insurance. If I or my family has a health crisis, God will pay the bills.
8. That church just keeps growing. God is really blessing them.
9. If I use the “What Did Jesus Eat?” Diet, I will be less likely to get cancer.
10. Our family has 8 children and one on the way. I’m sorry you can’t seem to get pregnant. The scripture says that God blesses the obedient with many children.
11. We only do business with Christian companies. That keeps the money in the kingdom of God.
12. The mass intention today is for Mr. Smith’s grandmother, Lois Grant.
13. God isn’t going to bless your church till you start a 24 hour a day prayer room and show him you really want revival.
14. Proverbs: He who rises early will be wealthy, etc.
15. Your suggestion….
The key to number 6 is “in my name.”
Okay, I can’t really poke fun at these because we’ve got novenas to St. Jude and Our Lady of Mount Carmel, but jings! There is actually a “What Did Jesus Eat?” diet?
“Our family has 8 children and one on the way. I’m sorry you can’t seem to get pregnant. The scripture says that God blesses the obedient with many children.”
This is just *begging* for a smack in the mouth – please tell me some idiot did not say this in reality?
And what’s wrong with Mass intentions?
The movie “Facing the Giants” screams prosperity gospel. Follow God with all your heart and nothing will go wrong.
What a bunch of hooey.
1. No. Ramsey says that the best source of income is a J.O.B.
2. No (am I the only Christian in the world that didn’t like this movie?)
3. Yes
4. Maybe
5. Yes. Victoria too.
6. No.
7. No. Stupid, yes.
8. No. Even infected things swell up.
9. No.
10. No, just bad theology.
11. No.
12. No.
13. No.
14. No. While Solomon prospered, I don’t think that he preached the prosperity gospel.
15. Anything related to Joyce Meyer, Yes.
I’d say that 1, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 14 aren’t necessarily the PG, but are potentially used or abused, etc by the PG folks or folks with similar outlooks.
2-5, 7, 10, and 13 are pretty solidly in the PG camp.
I wonder how much of this is an issue of superstitions overtaking theology? How much of this is the idea that if someone invokes God or our faith in the right way that God is obligated to answer in the right way.
Which kinda makes me giggle, ‘cuz in a lot of fiction in the fantasy genre, they’d call the prayers of religious people “faith magic.” And while the idea of calling the application of our faith “magic” is offensive, that’s exactly how the PG folks treat the faith!
Is it that hard to understand that something can be true, but not the whole truth or the deepest truth? To be faithful to God is to invite blessing – for he gives himself freely to those who ask – and every good and perfect gift has its source in him. Yet in this world, we often have to go through a death and resurrection to experience this as we will in actuality in our literal death and resurrection. We share in God’s blessings NOW in proportion to our faith. We share in his sufferings NOW in proportion to our faith.
I think people react too harshly to the prosperity gospel. Albeit that it’s a misconstrued, false form of the message of Jesus Christ, but I do think the Bible does show God blessing his followers materially.
Look at Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, etc etc…
God does reward his servants with worldly wealth! It’s just that this worldly wealth is paltry compared to the greatest gift of all: God himself in Jesus Christ!
1. no. These guys teach how to be good stewards of the money God has given us, but definitely not prosperity gospel
2. Definitely! I wish I could get a brand new truck just by being nice!
3. Yup, have to say that this teaching of the tithes is prosperity gospel. I’m a believer in the New Testament model of giving (giving of the heart), not the Old Testament tithe (giving out of obligation).
4. Definitely prosperity gospel
5. ditto
6. taken out of context, this verse sure sounds like prosperity gospel. Always, always, read the context and surrounding text!
7. almost as bad as JW’s who don’t believe in blood transfusions, IMHO
8. Prosperity gospel
9. shame on you for being suckered into garbage like that!
10. not only prosperity gospel, but smacks of arrogance
11. not prosperity gospel, but definitely the “bubble boy” mentality. How is that any better than the Pharisees?
12. nope. I’m not Catholic, so I’m not quite sure what it means, but doesn’t sound like prosperity gospel
13. And when has God ever been our genie in a bottle? sigh…
14.not prosperity gospel, but just a good hard work ethic!
#4 and #5, yes. Prosperity theology. I confess my ignorance regarding #1 — no idea what they are. Never saw “Facing the Giants,” not interested. #8, #10 are just non sequiturs. #11 is the Christian ghetto mindset; keep out anyone who’s not like us. #7 is just plain stupid; God will take care of our needs, but that doesn’t give us the excuse to be craven fools about it.
#3 is the only one I can attest to: my husband was laid off for two months. We kept tithing my paycheck and whatever he made doing engine repair at home (not much — he won’t charge people more than $50), and God worked out the rest for our bills. We certainly weren’t eating steak, nor has God given him a bigger/better job per Joel Osteen, but we had enough to get through until he started working again.
I vote with Don, though I did like Facing the Giants (though I must agree that they made it seem all too “prosperous” and smooth when becoming a Christian.
Martha, you’d be surprised how the pounds fly off after a few weeks of gall and vinegar smoothies.
God doesn’t care about prosperity. He doesn’t care that some people don’t have money, or food, or a roof over their heads, or a place to call home, or that people die of swine flu. He is more interested in “spiritual” things.
(Please note the sarcasm.)
Hi all, new here. My name is Kay.
Curtis, that was hilirous!
Anyway, I have a hard time with prosperity Gospel, makes me feel like such a failure. I am poor by America’s standards, but so was Jesus and He sure wasn’t a failure, even though to the “world” it looked like he failed.
There has just got to be more to the picture than life here on this earth . . .
Some of these are not so much prosperity gospel, but the very biblical principle “you reap what you sow.” Eat healthy – live longer. General principles to lengthen life and improve life’s quality.
The problem comes when these are used to motivate Christian life (we should be motivated by love of God, not desire for stuff) or when we make these things ironclad guarantees (you can live a healthy life and still get hit by a bus.)
The prosperity gospel has some bad stuff, like giving financial seeds to shyster televangelists. It is basically a kind of superstitious kind of gambling.
However, I also think there are some good things about the prosperity gospel. I think it is good for people to want and expect more out of life and to believe that they deserve more.
I don’t like the kind of dour, abusive, masochistic, Christianity that puts people down and tells people they don’t deserve better and how dare they ask for more.
I think we need folks who believe Christ deserves everything and their neighbor- esp their suffering neighbor elsewhere- deserves more.
ms
1. NO. Both Dave and Crown have helped my family be wiser with the money we have, not get more of it.
2. Yes, but ok movie otherwise.
3. Maybe/maybe not, depending on one’s faith. For me, No.
4. YES.
5. YES. And Double YES
6. No.
7. More bad theology than prosperity gospel. That’s not being a “wise steward of what you have been given”.
8. No.
9. WHAT? Seriously???? Um…as bad as prosperity gospel, but more…”crunchy”(?) gospel.
10. Agree with metalman. Not prosperity, but unbelievably arrogant, and bad theology
11. Not Prosperity Gospel, but still bad. Aren’t we supposed to share the kingdom?
12. No. I’m Baptist, wife is (Byzantine)Catholic, I understand this, and I think it’s…questionable, but not prosperity gospel.
13. Oh give me a break. Bad theology, possibly prosperity gospel, and just annoying.
14. No. That’s more along the lines of being disciplined, a good steward, and the calls in the Bible not to be lazy or a sluggard.
I’m not familiar enough with all of them to say “yes” or “no” to about half. I will say, though, that anything that confuses financial or material growth or improvement with Kingdom growth is Prosperity Gospel.
And to be fair, some of those items aren’t intentionally Prosperity Gospel, but have been misused that way by Prosperity Gospel folks. The Prayer of Jabez, fr’instance. The book itself explains that expanding one’s territory has to do with the number of people you influence, rather than material possessions. But those who don’t read the book naturally focus on the material possessions, ’cause their treasure isn’t in heaven—it’s here.
I feel comfortable speaking to #1.
All & all, I would say ‘No’. I do see Truth in the Luke – “Whoever can be trusted with very little…” argument that both sources lean heavily on.
That being said, of the two sources, Ramsey is the closest to prosperity gospel. Although I don’t think he explicitly teaches a prosperity gospel, I believe there is an implied message in his material that says “God wants everyone to be rich” and if you follow (Ramsey’s) Biblical principles, you will be. Aside from that implied message, which I don’t fully agree with, Ramsey’s materials are very helpful.
As far as Crown, their stance is much more fluid. They leave plenty of room for prayer and Holy Spirit guidance in decision making. I don’t believe they teach a prosperity gospel, but their mechanics are much more fluid, and subsequently weaker than Ramsey’s.
Both helpful sources.
Some are the prosperity gospel pure and simple (ie Osteen, Prayer of Jabez hype). Others are just enlarged and out-of-context ideas that don’t take into account the whole counsel of scripture.
Many show heavy influence of the culture we live in — a culture of acquisition and self-aggrandizement. A culture in which sacrifice and self-denail and simplicity and humility and a servant attitude are more frequntly belittled than upheld as the ideal. The paradox of Christianity, of course, is that our treasure and riches are located precisely in that realm of sacrifice and humility and servanthood.
to Metalman777 in regards to teaching about tithing in church; If you notice in the NT many believers gave more than 10% of their income. It says that they shared everything in common and gave as was needed.
When a person obeys Christ out of a heart of love for Him they often-times do, or give, more than the legalist does (the widow who gave her last mite etc.)
Monk you hit the nail on the head. “My money” is not mine, but God’s, all of it. Christians who view their money and possessions in that way truly do things differently than the rest of us.
The big problem with the PG people is that implicitly or explicitly they preach that we can somehow manipulate God into giving us what we want. That by doing x,y, or z we can “force” God to do what we desire.
The perspective is all from the bottom up. It depends on human definitions of “good” and “wealth” and “prosper” not on what God deems “Good” or on what God desires for His people. Joel, Victoria and the others have, in my opinion, hijacked the definitions of certain terms and words, reformed them in their own image and then read those definitions back into scripture with the skewed meanings.
FreeFamilyFinance.Com
Maybe you need to read Mr. Ramsey’s book or listen to his program a couple times. He does not promise wealth to his listeners, nor does Dave claim God wants His people to be wealthy. The “implied message” is “Get out of debt and you can then be free of obligation to the lender.”
Phil R.
I’m with Phil. Dave Ramsey doesn’t imply any kind of message along the lines of “God wants everyone to be rich” or that his principles lead to God’s blessing. Even just a little surface-level research will show you that even though he is a Christian, he doesn’t force Christianity into his programs. Also, I’ve heard him say many times that when you do get out of debt and have extra money, you should enjoy it by giving it away and blessing others. You don’t hear that in the prosperity gospel.
#15. My suggestion. The following quote is from Samuel Rodriguez’s new book, Path of Miracles.
“God has a marathon of miracles waiting for you to enjoy right now, in this lifetime, and the seven simple principles in this book will show you how to unlock the power within you, and secure those treasures, right here, right now.”
This is his take on EASTER!
What’s really sad is that Rodriguez is head of the largest evangelical Hispanic Christian organization in America, one of four leading Hispanics that the Wall St. Journal says will have influence on our nation’s political leaders, a recent speaker at Liberty University (!), and the book is endorsed by the likes of Jim Wallis and the chairman of the board of Gordon-Conwell seminary.
Let me try.
1. Sort of. Only works in Suburbia America (or some other level of income that would make it worth while). What my Grandmother raised us on wouldn’t even qualify (401K, Emergency Funds, IRA’s?). If our lights were on every monthy that was good! Section 8 and “The New Deal” were awesome for us!
2. Yes. Just pray and do the right thing and everything else will work out! NOT!!! Tell that to my friend who lost her husband (and only source of income).
3. Sort of. Seen that work for some, others went further in debt!
4. Yes! Description not prescription.
5. Yes. Read the second half of Hebrews 11 or Acts 8, or The Voice of the Martyrs
6. No but used a lot. I believe the scriptures but for some reason this hasn’t worked for me. I have a hard time getting my 3 year old to eat his vegetables “oh ye of little faith”?
7. No. Or how about this “I don’t need health insurance because there aren’t any doctors or hospitals in a 500 mile radius”. Thank God for health insurance though I need to use it more frequently.
8. No. That could be true or untrue.
9. No. Better start drinking the water Jesus drank also! Ever saw Erin Brokovich? But I do believe healthy eating can’t hurt, I wished I didn’t have to drive in Dallas though, my chances of living are 50/50 everyday!
10. Yes. That wold be devestating to a slew of Godly women! Especially those who had to have hysterectomies before they were married.
11. No. Not prosperity but doesn’t seem to be consistent with the scriptures.
12. No.
13. No.
14. What if I work at night? Would that mean I would have to get up in the afternoon?
15. If you bless Israel God will bless you!
1. Clarification, I think Ramsey is okay, I question Crown especially their marketing video with everyone with big houses, fancy boats and the whole nine. I don’t know if anyone has seen it but it is disturbing. Not to mention Crown use of scriptures can get really bad, I think Ramsey is the way to go.
Oh yes, and a question. During the current economic downturn, I notice many churches sponsoring financial classes and seminars.
Am I too cynical when I say that I wonder how much of this is because:
1. They truly want to help people
or,
2. They are scared to death of diminishing giving that will force them to shut down the big evangelical machinery they’ve learned to trust in?
My only comment is on #4.
Prayer of Jabez book? Probably heavily influenced by the prosperity gospel. Imo.
However, the original prayer in scripture? Probably not. God put it in there for a reason. The book brought some of those reasons out. Along with a small barrage of other reasons.
All scriptural passages on the list OBVIOUSLY are not the prosperity gospel. However, great care is necessary when exegeting them, because they are easily abused by prosperity preachers.
3, 7-11, 14: I hope this doesn’t come across wrong but I fail to see how cerebral people can accept those. I know people who do accept much of that. They are wonderful people but simply not the brightest bulbs in the light show.
The frustration for me is how do you help somebody who insists on believing 7?
Here’s my take:
1,2 not sure because I’m not familar with them.
3, 4, 5, 7, 8 definite Yes
6 Definite No
9, Depends. If you eat Biblically, it’s probably healthier than what most people eat, so it might reduce the possibility of cancer.
10, 11, 13 Definite Yes
12, No (You knew that I would say that GRIN)
14, that’s just common sense (which isn’t any more)
1. Christian financial ministries like Crown and Dave Ramsey. – Crown to me was the ‘rich Christian web site. I agree with what Lionel Woods stated that Crown only works with already wealthy people. Dave Ramsey seems more balanced in his approach in many areas.
2. The movie “Facing The Giants.†– No comment, never saw the movie
3. If you tithe, God will pay all of your other bills. – word of faith definitely. Propseriy Gospel states that paying tithes just gets you love, acceptance, and protection from God. In most Prosperity Gospel mindsets, If you want your bills paid or a nice car or home, ante up….
4. The Prayer of Jabez. (Prayer the prayer and God will expand your territory.) – PG definitely and also I see alot of the seeker-sensitive mindset and Kingdom Now / Dominionalist mindsets.
5. Joel Osteen. (Have a good attitude, think positive, be nice and God will show you favor.) – PG and seeker-sensitive. His daddy was a prime player in the Word of Faith movement
6. Jesus: Ask whatever you will in my name, and it will be done unto you. If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can move a mountain. – Definitely PG, word of faith, and even classical pentecostalism / holiness, Kingdom Now / Dominionalist mindsets, Latter Reign
7. I don’t need health insurance. If I or my family has a health crisis, God will pay the bills. – stupidity
8. That church just keeps growing. God is really blessing them. – classical pentecostalism, church-growth, seeker sensitive, word of faith, revival / renewal Charismatics, Kingdom Now, Dominionalism, Latter Reign, – aka Christian pragmatics.
9. If I use the “What Did Jesus Eat?†Diet, I will be less likely to get cancer. – Word of Faith, PG, and the revival / renewal / Dominionalist Charismatics
10. Our family has 8 children and one on the way. I’m sorry you can’t seem to get pregnant. The scripture says that God blesses the obedient with many children. – The American religious right across all denominations
11. We only do business with Christian companies. That keeps the money in the kingdom of God. classical pentecostalism, fundamentalism, The American religious right that are Charismatic in nature. – Look at the other side where the revival / renewal mindset, Dominionalists, Kingdom Now, and Latter Reign people form these MLM companies and push the ‘christians buying from other Christians mentality’
12. The mass intention today is for Mr. Smith’s grandmother, Lois Grant. – I am not familiar with this.
13. God isn’t going to bless your church till you start a 24 hour a day prayer room and show him you really want revival. – revival / renewal movements, Ultra Charismatic, IHOP, New Apostolic Reformation (C Peter Wagner), Dominionalists, Kingdom Now, and Latter Reign
14. Proverbs: He who rises early will be wealthy, etc. – That is the Bible, never heard it obsessed with any particular group in general
15 – A. Your suggestion…. The revival / renewal, Charismatics, Word of Faith, Dominionalists, Kingdom Now, Latter Reign, New Apostolic Reformation, and Prosperity Gospel – These annual summer conferences consisting of ‘repent-a-thons’, ‘mega-fasts’, ’2 Chronicles 7:14 rallies’, dominionalism, ‘revival’ promising that if we address ‘that one thing’ that is holding God from being provident, sovereign, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then the heaveniles will open up and blessings will pour out yada yada yada…
but repeat the same crap year after year.
15-B . The ‘signs and wonders’ people – golddust, gold teeth, angel feathers, stigmatas, sapphires and rubies, oily hands.
15-C Charismatic Messianics – restoration of the Jewish Feasts, blowing shofars, observing the Hebrew Calendar and telling time per the Jerusalem time zone, church on Saturday, kosher diets,
No. 14 appears to be a paraphrase of Benjamin Franklin. Deism and the prosperity gospel would seem to work at cross-purposes, no? (With that “watchmaker god” and all.)
No. 6 is a really tricky one, theologically. Jesus seems to be saying that prayer actually works. So why aren’t I rich and married to Bo Derek? Well, one theory is that it only works if you subsume your will to God’s. Or maybe the “mountain” is the mountain of my own sins. Or maybe my faith just wan’t strong enough. (Perhaps Ms. Derek’s prayers counteracted mine.)
No. 12 sounds like just some strange argot for group prayer. If we admit that one person praying for another can have an effect, why not a whole roomful of people? As to whether the roomful would have MORE of an effect, well, in that case God would end up helping people who are famous and popular, which seems at odds with the biblical ethos.
I’m not sure where the “prosperity gospel” movement (properly so-called) begins and ends. Robert Tilton (spit three times) with his theology that whatever you give to the Lord (read: Robert Tilton), God will return tenfold? (“Somebody out there is waiting to make a hundred-dollar vow of faith. Somebody wants to make a THOUSAND dollar vow of faith. Now pray with me: Holy Spirit, annoint my hand as I reach deep, deep into my wallet…”)
In the New Thought movement (most famous for “positive thinking,” e.g. “affirmations” and “thought for the day” type stuff) there was this one guy who re-worked the 23rd Psalm into…well, it started like this: “The Lord is my banker, my credit is good…”
No. 7 (health insurance) concerns preparing for possible future catastrophes. On one hand, Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount tells us not to worry about tomorrow, etc. On the other hand, God warns Joseph in the OT to store food in preparation for a famine. I prefer this attitude.
No. 9. There’s no reason to think that Jesus had an especially healthy diet. He probably ate what everybody else did.
A friend of mine would say, “God doesn’t promise anything except a cross. God’s greatest blessing is the cross.”
Obed, I think you’re right. That’s what drives me crazy about some of the approaches to prayer – that it treats prayers more like charms or spells, and confuses religion with magic.
We can’t force or bargain or buy or obligate God to do stuff for us in any way.
Is it permissible to pray for our necessities? Certainly – the Our Father teaches us to ask for “our daily bread” (and yeah, I know there’s a lot of theological work done on what exactly that means besides the obvious, but the obvious also applies here).
Asking for jam on it? That’s a different matter.
I do wonder if some of this is perhaps a result of American attitudes – hold off on the lynching for a moment, friends, I’m not attacking your fine nation! I’m just saying that I saw an American Catholic (I presume) site with the St. Jude novena, and it definitely not just veered over into but drove straight at snakeoil territory. With a list of “Have you got …. problems?” and a “Say this! Do that! 100% guaranteed results!” prescription, it reminded me more of an advertisement for banking services or the new wonder pill rather than the kind of “Ask for the graces attendant” presentation I’m accustomed to in these matters.
And I do think that this is the American attitude of “anything’s possible; from a log cabin to the White House; work hard and you’ll get a raise/promotion/if you don’t, there’s a better job easily available out there; you deserve the fast car and bigger house; you don’t have to put up with sickness or suffering or wait for anything you want; don’t like how you feel? now you don’t put up with the disappointments of life – there’s a therapy or a drug out there to make it all better”, the Can Do! attitude that is admirable in its place but, when applied to the spiritual, is completely off the wall.
I think that attitude of material and social progress has bled over into the expectations of religion and subtly warped what we should know; if God has promised that anything we ask He will grant, and if we’ve been told over and over that it’s all by faith, then asking for what I want (no, we are to ask for what we need) is fine because this will make me happy and God wants us to be happy (no, God wants our good, which may be an entirely different thing) and I deserve it just because without having to do anything! (no, what we receive is all by grace, not desert, and sometimes the answer we need is ‘no’).
#10 was shared with my daughter who had two miscarriages during the past year. It was in her SBC Sunday School class. No response from the church
Yes, all of it.
“God does reward his servants with worldly wealth!”
And as soon as they get it, they start straight into swindling your kinsmen, committing adultery and arranging the murder of your rival, dissension and rebellion in your family, wandering after strange gods and losing the wisdom you asked for when you were poorer…
… as the man said, to see what God thinks of wealth, just look at the people He gives it to.
Who Cares? They only give me indigestion for which I have found no cure.
#6: Imagine if this didn’t make it into the Bible, and then Joel Osteen said, “Ask whatever you will in Jesus’ name, and it will be done unto you”! Everyone would be *all over* him. It would go down as one of the worst things he ever said.
Most of these I would tend to dismiss out of hand but 3, 7, 10 and 14 (somewhat) tend to get to me sometimes. It’s that whole “if you’re good then God will be good to you and if not then you get what you deserve†thing. I get it in church when I look at certain families that seem to do everything right and they prosper like crazy. Not the material things but the other stuff – good kids, lots of freinds, talents. I thought I did things right but didn’t prosper. But I know that in this world we are not promised a pain free prosperous life no matter what we do. And as soon as you think you are, then you open yourself up to all kinds of sin. I pray for humble acceptance of all the good things God has given me but I’m only human.
#10 was also shared with me – well, not the exact quote, but in principle several times during my three years of struggling with infertility. And I do think it is a kind of prosperity Gospel. God blesses those who obey Him, and clearly since I was struggling, I must not be obeying God. I’m so sad to hear that it’s been the experience for others in the church, too
I can’t wait to get up for our baby dedication (we’re due in June) and share that the pregnancy had nothing to do with our obedience or any drastic change in beliefs. It was just a surprising blessing, out of nowhere, and we didn’t earn it. Neither did the family with 8 kids and one on the way.
The Prosperity Gospel makes me ill.
I am in a wheelchair and have been told so many times that I would be healed and prosper if I would …
“… just believe.”
“… confess those hidden sins.”
“… name and claim Abraham’s blessing.”
“… pray in His name.”
“… pray in the Spirit.”
“… take a huge leap of faith.”
“… read the right translation.”
“… attend the right church.”
“… tithe.”
“… attend church.”
“… rebuild family relationships.”
“… get married in line with scripture.”
“… stay single for the Lord.”
Well, I have prayed, believed and have struggled against sin for fourteen years and I am still rolling around in my chair. The only “real” prayer seems to be Job 1:21.
That is not to say that God is not involved or that He is not good, only that He is sovereign. We can ask, but we may not receive.
I am thankful to God for all the good that continues to come into my life, most of which I do not ask for or deserve.
As for “Facing the Giants,” I prefer “Braveheart” and “The Patriot” as a good, anti-prosperity-gospel-but-pro-faith movies.
Peaches, I am so sorry to hear that. I hope she punched the idiot in his or her big, fat mouth?
Well, consider this a virtual puck in the gob on her behalf.
Honest to God, have none of these read the Book of Job? The whole Job’s comforters bit? “Well, if this is happening to you, you must deserve it – what did you do to get God angry?”
And God’s response?
“42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.”
15. PETER POPOFF MIRACLE MANNA/SPRING WATER! (Look it up on YouTube and cry.)
Matthew Peak: thank you for your eloquent testimony of God’s power made perfect in our weakness.
Those who said such things to you know nothing of Biblical teaching, wisdom, or love.
Perhaps 1 thru 14 depend on what your motive is. 15. Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God.
No. 5 – I have a hard time connecting Joel Osteen, with the prosperity gospel, at least in its more crass sense. I grew up in the 80s and 90s with the televangelists promising that God will bless you if you buy their anointed prayer cloth/prayer shawl/whatever. I have never seen Joel do this. Nor in the Oral Roberts vein, have I ever seen Joel tell people to plant a seed of $1,000 with his ministry to get a blessing in return. I tend to think of him as being more in the Norman Vincent Peale/Power of Positive Thinking vein. Not that that doesn’t have its own problems, but its not the same as the Tilton/Hickey/Oral Roberts version of things.
8. – Its always struck me as ironic – if our church/denomination is growing, its because we are teaching the truth and God is blessing us for it. If a “rival” church/denomination is growing, its because they are compromising God’s truth to get a crowd. If our church/denomination is NOT growing, its because no one wants to hear the truth in this apostate age. If a rival church/denomination is NOT growing, its because God has removed His Spirit from them because they are worldly compromisers and anathema to Him.
In other words, we can find a way to spiritualize and justify whatever is going on in such a way as to make us look good and someone else look bad.
9. – The whole Christian diet phenomenon is somewhat amusing to me. They all claim to be based on Scripture, yet they come up with different results. Some will say no meat at all for example, while others will say yes to all meat but pork (the “unclean” meat.) While I am sure they are some good sensible diet instructions in these works, I wonder if sometimes its a case of reading into the text what you already believe and want to find there.
Haven’t seen Facing the Giants, haven’t read The Prayer of Jabez, and don’t really follow Dave Ramsey. But I think with all of the above, it tends to be a case of taking an element of truth, and absolutizing and distorting beyond what was originally intended. Yes, God may indeed bless us for our faithfulness, but He is not “obligated” to do so. Mainly, we should be faithful because it is the right thing to do.
I’m with Justin.
All PG. Especially the Osteens and #3.
The baby thing is just plain stupid and cruel.
15. Bill Gothard and the IOBYC.
Why do we persist in thinking God is a vending machine in the sky?
Martha,
I am sure that # 10 attitude of complete and irresponsible (blank) is common in evangelical churches.
One Father’s Day, I and my girl friend almost walked out of Sunday School, because the lesson was all about praising our fathers. It included a way too long segment from a call in show with people thanking their fathers. She wanted to leave because she had been abused by hers and I wanted to leave because mine had died a few months earlier.
Perhaps we were cowards and didn’t speak to the teacher afterwards, but we were hurting.
1. No
2. Not originally but yes now
3. Maybe
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. No in context
7. Yes
8. yes
9. just plain crazy
10. yes
11. just stupid
12. no
13. yes
14. not if taken as a “proverb”
15. Let’s move our church from the inner city to the nice white flight suburbs, that is where we can grow and God is moving.
Bill C. – Well said.
Anything to me which has an “if-then” attached to it is a form of prosperity teaching. I don’t even like to attach the word gospel to it. If anything, these things are anti-gospel because that they distract from the real thing.
Health insurance is a largely American phenomenon – much of the industrialized world has universal care and much of the undeveloped world has the “walk it off” plan. Prayer for the sick (especially when that prayer is not accompanied by doctors, medication, hospitals, etc.) doesn’t seem to be all that effective. And yet, it dominates our corporate prayer life.
How do we view and justify our own prosperity? I once heard that if you you were a home owner, you were in the top 2% of wealthiest people on the planet, and if you owned an automobile, you were in the top 10%. That seems pretty prosperous to me.
We have this relativistic and elitist view that those with more than us are money grubbing heathens and those with less than us are lazy handout-seekers with an entitlement mentality. Whatever we have is just right.
Changed my mind on #2. I guess it is yes (didn’t see the movie, just judging by the fact that there was and will be follow-up movies that will make people a lot of money).