Comments on: Praise the Lord! He paid off my credit card! Again!

By: Ken

Ken — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

i.e.

Aslan is not a tame lion.

What makes you think he’s gonna jump thru your hoop?

By: Eric Lancaster

Eric Lancaster — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

Oh no…I guess I ain’t gettin’ that Cadillac Escalade from Dell just cause I bought a new computer…

Eric

By: Jared

Jared — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

In regards to the young person going into debt for school, that scares me. I have a lot of debt. I came here thinking it was no big deal, like you said… God will take care of it. Why? Not because I am at some fancy University looking to grab a degree into some high-paying fancy job… no, I’m at a Bible College. I actually thought God was calling me into ministry, but I was betrayed and shown a fool by the very people who claim to be elite Christians, yes, those who think they are gifted in teaching the future teachers. I’m not called to full-time “professionalism” ministry, yet I’m still here finishing my degree in nothing with truckloads of debt. Imagine that. A school specializing in training for ministry leaves their graduating students in a state where they might as well buy a Mercedes-Benz with a High School degree. Hypocrisy. I was duped and now I’m going to finish off the rest of whatever life I have paying it off because I agree with you… and I’m lost at what to do now. Scared for the future, confused, and sad. I don’t even have any skills or talent for the mission field. Just a bank account in the negatives due to loans which are somehow “OK” (as opposed to other loans) and nothing else to give to the hurting world.

Only grace can help me now. Only mercy and grace.

By: Diane Roberts

Diane Roberts — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

Two corrections in an overall excellent post.

From someone who has been in several Word of Faith (WOF) churches..namely me….
First, I have personally heard over and over from the main WOF teachers that if you are sick you probably should go to the doctor and keep going until you are healed. For some reason, their followers don’t either hear this or wish to. And of course, there cetainly are other teachers who do teach people not to go to doctors which is tragic.
The bottom line is this: if you are healed, then of course the healed don’t go to doctors. However, one should go for tests to be sure they really are healed, not just because they “feel” they are.

Second, I have never been to any WOF church where the members are wealthy with big cars and lots of money. Frankly, the people in the majority of these churches ae the poorest around and remain so while in many cases (but not all) the pastor is the wealthy one, and excuse my lingo, pimpin’ off the folks.

By: imonk

imonk — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

Diane…

Thanks for the post, but I didn’t mention WOF.

Prosperity oriented churches are of several denominational types, and many indy versions as well. Many are full of upper middle class types as described, in my experience at least. I wasn’t exclusively on the WOFs, though the ones here in KY are obsessed with $$ and are generously endowed with upper middle class folks as described.

Saying a church is “full of” isn’t saying the sort of people mentioned are the only ones there. I agree that they are full of the poor as well.

I also didn’t mention WOF with the illustration of the sick guy. He is in my church, and I don’t preach that view This sort of thinking is everywhere.

By: Steve

Steve — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

Good article. I am reminded of what Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:6 to 10: But godliness with contentment is great gain For we bought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap, and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wondered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Perhaps I could amend the final line and say that many people have pierced themselves with debt and excessive spending

By: Beni

Beni — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

Amen, bro’
it is sad, but it is true.
People imagine that GoD’s first purpose is for us to be happy, healthy and wealthy.
I have a question though, who’s faulth is it? why do people believe all this non-sense? Why are people so ready to believe what their pastors or TV evangelist tells them even if it’s against what Bible clearly states?
Peolpe look at their pastor and believe every word he says, and they don’t investigate for themselves
We should all be like the Bereans
Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. ”
Paul, the great apostle is talking to them, and they still double check every word he said.
It’s alawys lack of knowledge that leads to people believe strange things.
John 8:31,32
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
it is the truth that sets us free:
- the truth that God asks his children to be responsible persons on this Earth,
- the truth that our final home is not here, but in heaven
- the truth that God asks his childrens to be holy, to be like Jesus ( now that’s a high standard )
Thanks God for this site, and for all the people that still want to hear His voice, to read His word, to trust Him.
I think it’s time for a new Reformation, put God once again in the center of our lifes.
like puritans use to say: Those who have God and everything else have less than those who have God only.

By: Matt Smyczynski

Matt Smyczynski — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

Excellent post. I’ve been told by many a preacher to “believe God for x” where x can be a job, a girlfriend, the gift of tongues, healing, or any other thing that he thinks God should give me. It gets old pretty quick.

By: Ryan McKeever

Ryan McKeever — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

What are you people deaf?! Did you not hear Jared’s Post! For all that is holy, would not some one speak encouragement to him! Furthermore, would someone please for God’s sake address the truth of American christian education for what it is! A lie and a burden! (Breath) Whew. If you are able to read this Jared, hang in there. I am in the same boat you are, except I’m heading off to seminary with no gaurantees in sight only God’s leading. Let me explain my situation to everbody else. God found me in prison literally I was working as a correctional officer, but as I grew in the faith of our Lord, I believed the discipleship I was receiving in the church was far from adequate, and furthermore I believed God was calling(i.e. God was initiating) me to explicitly attend a CHRISTIAN university of higher education. I responded in faith, believing this was what he wanted. However, My family situation was not like that of most other college students. My father died two years before I enrolled, and I was caring for a thirteen year old sister he left behind. My chronically depressed mother moved home and I had to choose between keeping stability in the home or finding a job. I still walked away from this “christian university” with no less than $25,000. Furthermore, as Jared said, my degree prepared me to be nothing more than a walking stigma. Good for nothing in the church and useless to society, the best work I have had is working a part time job doing night security and part time work at toys r us. WOW, thats some calling boys! And don’t pull that protestant b.s. line God can use any situation, that’s more akin to the presumption. Yes, God is so mighty and so powerful that in the midst of an apethetic religious evangelical community and a oppressive retail capitalist environment I have learned about the life of Christ, but I give no thanks to the church and certainly no thanks to higher education. I learned more about true ministry suffering and sacrificing for family than I ever did at the university. After I graduated, I was given the cold shoulder by the university and was treated like someone with a chronic disease. Even if I wanted to pay off my debts, the “christian community” was actively apathetic in seeing me through to finding employment that would have payed a liveable wage. I resound with Jared’s sentiments, I recieved a baccalaureate in religious studies, I did not take out loans to buy clothes, cars, or audio equipment; NO, I took loans just to simply survive in this damned society. I took loans just to pay for tuition. I took out loans so that my little sister might make it through high school. And I resent the fact that the very institution, the very community that claims to have the authority to dole out these massive burdens, has absolutely NO responsiblity to me or ANY student in a vocational bearing. If this is the way it is, I say to hell with “christian” higher education, deciet and lies all. Religious faculty should be fired, and these schools should only exist for disciplines that American society cares about: Physical health, computer science and business. I cannot imagine the turmoil and frustration of actually graduating from a bible school, and looking out on the prospects. This is nothing more than a oppressive pagan system baptized by so called ‘leaders’ of christian society. [pause] Thankfully, God has called me to another educational community, one that for now seems to care about the debt I am assuming. But I am frustrated with the fact that the church, rather than supporting the next generation of pastors, is leaving them to hang out in the wind. I have not learned a damn thing about pastoring at toys ‘r’ us. I have not learned a damn thing about pastoring being a night lock up monitor. Oh sure I could make allegorical stretches of the imagination, but that would be partcipating in delusion at best. No, the church seems hell bent on building bigger barns, rather showing those who want to be examples to flock that God suppoorts them in their decision. Mark my words, and this is a prophetic challenge to the church of America, continue in this manner and the church will be swept away. For instead of making sure the shepherds of God’s flock had the neccessary provisions to hold out through their watch, the church wanted fur coats, and in doing so let the wolves in the front gate. Church leadership will at best be filled with incompetent people who care, at worst liars and thieves will plunder. Whichever, the body is deteriorating and rapidly becoming undone. Why the heck did we have the reformation in the first place?
It is shameful that a young christian person should show the honesty to share their deepest suffering and none of the other ‘mature’ posters had any inclination to offer encouragement or condolence in the manner of our suffering Lord, Christ Jesus. If my crassness offends, I would ask your forgiveness, I just think Jared opened up a topic I have heard no one adress…ever…in a remotely redemptive manner. It time to get this dirty laundry out of the closet. Maybe the next essay could deal with “Christian Educational Administrations and how they are participating in the enslavement and oppression of the generation that is following them” (P.S. I’ll understand if you ban me forever for my cantankerous attitude)

For Jared’s eyes only, and if you’re not Jared and your reading this, I hope your eyeballs melt out, no really, I mean that, If you’re not Jared, I hope your eyballs melt out. Well ok, if you’re a student in Jared’s shoes you can read this too. The rest a you can bump into dressers for all I care…..

I meant what I said, hang in there. I don’t know what type of church you attend, but try to find a smaller one(35-200 members); you might have a better chance of securing the spiritual and emotional support that you will need in the aftermath of your graduation. You might not find a paid position, but you may find that people have a tendency to be more attentive and caring in a smaller congregation than in a megachurch (unless of course the megachurch has a phenomenal small group foundation). Second, come to grips with having to work a secular job, and if you need take a Sunday off every once in a while, do so. sometimes the reality of life and the God talk on Sunday militate to the point of bitter insanity. Also, Don’t be afraid to be angry with God about it, he wants to hear your frustrations. He’ll still be God even if you yell at him or even curse at him:). The most important thing I can encourage you in is, keep that line of communication open with him, he will guide you in the midst of your turmoil. And don’t be afraid to hold God accountable to his promises. If he has placed this burden on your heart to be a faithful servant to rightly communicate his word to his people, faith may mean urgently and persistently dogging him to show you how he is fulfilling HIS calling. Also, do whatever you can to not be distracted from God’s calling. The world is deceitful and does not want to hear the truth God is calling you to share. The world does not want to know the self-less love of Christ. You will be detoured, obstacles will be placed in your way, for even those in churches now do not want to hear the hard truth that redemption and renewal can only come through sacrifice. I would challenge you in one thing though, you said you don’t have skills or talent for the mission field. My friend, if you claim Jesus Christ as your Lord, he has already bestowed upon you gifts, and talents and most importantly the will to discipline yourself for the good of others. My suggestion is to as quickly as you can find some one you trust as a spirtual guide, ask them what they see in you, ask them how they see God working, and then trust God that he is revealing who he is making you to them. Also, sit down with your denominational leadership, sometimes, God does stick true ‘bishops’(see the early church definition ) in positions of imortance and power. What you have described shows to me you are already living in the eternal life of Christ. Isaiah 52:13-53:5 tells us that God’s messiah, our savior would enter into grief, loss and suffering…and take our grief, pain and frustration on his own person. The true faith of Christ is trust in the midst of confusion, true love is charity in the midst pain, and hope true hope is believing in a loving God as we are confronted with an anxiety ridden future. As my favorite author Thomas a’Kempis said “Christ willed to suffer” and as we follow him we can expect no less. I have no doubt that as you proceed in faith God will make you a light to the nations, and as you faithfully bring your debt burden into his kingdom the stewardship he will bless you with will astonish the pagan kings around you.
May God bless you in continued faithfulness,
Knowing always the blessing of perseverence,
From a brother in Christ Our Lord
Ryan McKeever

By: imonk

imonk — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000

You raise a lot of fascinating and important issues that need to be addressed in a seperate piece on Christian ed.

Let me just say a few things:

I believe college is really important for a lot of people. Same with grad school. Especially for specific vocations.

I am not sure the ordinary pastoral ministry is one of them.

Or to be clearer, I don’t think it is worth acquiring huge debt to be pastorally trained at most schools.

So many schools today are a money game. The financial aid package arrives, and there is $5k of loans. And next semester. And so on. All youdo is sign. And pay the rest of your life.

Almost every week, Ryan, I talk to students who are 1) not being called or affirmed in ministry by a congregation but are 2) heading off to school to be ministerially trained, often at huge cost. Many of these young people are not going to be ministers. Ever. They are looking for something they think they will find at a school, and many of those schools are more than happy to take them in.

I would advise:

1) Be affirmed in your call by a church that will stand by you.
2) That may not mean giving you $$, but at least telling you the truth about whether you are cut our for ministry. And if you are, helping you as possible.
3) I want to really affirm churches like Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist that are starting ministry schools within the church. This makes abundant sense.
4) I think we need new models for education (like the Founders Study Center/an online training option) to face the reality that acquiring a huge debt is not automatically God’s will.

Good thoughts. And as to “ignoring” Jared, I don’t see the comment threads as a support group. It is a place where folks have the option of commenting or not….nothing wrong if they don’t.

Good post.