Before you read this post, I want to ask you to read two interviews with Joel Osteen and the first part of his book.
The first is at Beliefnet.com. The second is at FaithfulReader.com.
Here is the book excerpt at Amazon.
Here is a long excerpt from the first chapter of Your Best Life Now at Parable.com
Here are Osteen sermons. (Check dates. More recent ones reflect the concerns of this post.) Also, this is the closest thing we can find to a Confession of Faith.
Update 16: Here is Osteen’s recent apology for his interview on Larry King, where he did exactly what I told you he does. Included are my recations. And here is a long letter from Bob Ross at Pigrim Publications, who says Osteen is personally committed to the Gospel. I have no trouble with that. It’s his books, sermons and STATUS that are the problems.
Update 15: Here’s a commenter at the BHT defending Osteen and calling me out as too rash.
Update 14: The Detroit News Feature story. They are right on target: A New Age Gospel of Motivational Messages.
Update 13: Best Osteen post ever. Alex Arnold. Thank you, Alex.
Update 12: 2/7/05 I have decided to close the comment threads on the Osteen posts. Thanks to all who have commented, and I hope raising this issue has contributed to a better understanding of Mr. Osteen and what he represents in American Christianity.
Go directly to the “Outing Osteen” post.
UPDATE: The Faithful Reader site went down for a while. So just in case that interview may disappear, here’s the cached copy of the page.
UPDATE 2: I have made a list of all the current Osteen resources I could find in 20 pages of googling. I will add to the list.
UPDATE 3: Should I be seeking personal reconciliation with Osteen according to Matthew 18?
UPDATE 4: My response to some BHT questions, including my speculation about why Osteen won’t name books or influences in interviews.
UPDATE 5: It’s been quite a weekend. Record traffic. Biggest month in IM history, mostly off the last two days. Some wonderful blog posts have been forwarded to me. Thanks to everyone. This post on the Sacraments at Lakewood is a good one. (I am not about debating theology with Osteen. I don’t hear any theology from him. What is said at his web site or from the phone center is not what you will read in Osteen’s book.) Things are happening. Stay tuned.
UPDATE 6: My response to the objection “You should never criticize people who are winning others to Christ.” From a longer IM essay on Criticism.
UPDATE 7:Here’s another answer to a commenter: Is Osteen Ok for those who already know the Gospel, and just need a lift?
UPDATE 8: A MUST READ! Tim Challies does the grunt work of comparing the rhetoric of New Ager Marianne Williamson and motivational speaker Tony Robbins with Rick Warren. Why post that here? Do you need to ask? I said it at the BHT: There is a reason Osteen doesn’t name books and influences. Could this be why?
UPDATE 9 Osteen on MSNBC 2/1/05. He’s ok with being called a motivational speaker. Meanwhile, Michael Horton says what Osteen’s message really is: Fortune cookies.
UPDATE 10: Relevant scripture, and a story where “There really is a cliff!”
UPDATE 11: Amazon.com reviews of Osteen’s book, compiled by Byron Harvey. Also, Get Religion’s Osteen piece.
And for those who don’t care for what I am up to here, try this and this. Someone asked me if I wanted to pastor 30,000? Any church that cannot provide a meaningful interaction between pastor/elders and the entire congregation, in the homes of the members, regularly, personally, is too big. Megachurch numbers don’t represent churches, but denominations that gather in one room occasionally. I say this to everyone from Piper to whomever: Keep it small enough for shepherds to know the sheep.
UPDATE 12: Many excellent posts are out there, but few better than the BHT’s Richard. Updated: Tim Challies does a 5 star post on Osteen. Thanks, Tim. Updated again: Razorkiss has one of the best posts I’ve read. Very good information and quotes.
This is the pastor of America’s largest church. This will soon be the leading spokesperson for evangelical Christianity. This is the face and voice that will be heard speaking for the heirs of the Reformation. If you missed Jesus and the Gospel entirely, it’s because they weren’t there.
I want to know if anyone thinks we ought to try speaking up about this, at least once.
For those who haven’t heard the story, it goes like this.
John Osteen starts Lakewood Church. Osteen is a Baptist preacher, Texas style, who’s gone Pentecostal/Charismatic. The church grows to 10,000 members. Osteen preaches the Gospel, preaches missions, and is a respected “classic” Pentecostal/Charismatic leader. He isn’t, however, preparing for what happened next.
He died suddenly. Pentecostal churches the size of Lakewood are usually family dynasties, but Osteen didn’t lay the groundwork for his succession. His wife preaches for a while, and then his son Joel, who had been working with (I believe) the church’s media ministries. In other words, behind the scenes, apparently not planning to be pastor.
Joel tries out the pulpit. He’s not much of a preacher at first. He’s nervous, but the congregation is cheering for him. He’s cute, appealling and, eventually, funny. He’s got a beautiul wife. He’s charming, and tells a good story. He’s disarmingly vulnerable. He makes you feel good. He’s not like the usual ranting, angry preachers. He’s a nice guy.
Before long, Joel is comfortable in the role of pastor, and the church begins to grow. He’s preaching the usual word-faith stuff and things go well. But then Joel changes his emphasis….and things explode. In fact, in just over a decade, it triples to 30,000 and becomes the largest church in America. They buy the Compaq Center, former home of the NBA Houston Rockets. 18,000 seats. He’s on TBN, PAX and CNBC overseas.
What happened? Joel makes a remarkable shift away from his father’s style of more traditional Pentecostal/Charismatic preaching. He becomes a positive thinker- Peale and Schuller style. A preacher of “think positive and be blessed” principles. Prosperity preaching, but not with some tangled version of the Gospel at the center like so many on TBN (take Kenneth Copeland as an example.) It’s “have a better attitude and be blessed” motivational talks that have no relation to the essentials of the Christian Gospel. You rarely hear any theology or Gospel preaching. God is good and wants to bless you. Period. That’s it. Instead, Osteen’s messages are about “God’s Favor” on marriage, finances and career. Sin is never mentioned. In well over 25 hours of preaching that I listened to this year, Jesus was almost never mentioned, and when he was mentioned, it was in a perfunctory prayer in the last minute. Sin, the Cross, the atonement? Not there.
Osteen preaches about positive thinking, being blessed, resurrecting dreams and taking risks. His book is called “Your Best Life Now.” Despite endorsements from at least one preacher who supposedly understands the Gospel, the message of the Cross of Jesus Christ isn’t the focus of Osteen’s message- ever. It’s positive thinking. Good advice for people who need a lift relationally or financially. It’s the message of a good God who wants to bless you with a bigger house, a better job and, of course, a better attitude.
This Joel Osteen, a young man who stumbled into his father’s shoes, now is the most successful pastor in America, and will soon be a best selling author, seen and heard around the world standing in a pulpit, preaching pragmatic positive thinking, pure and simple, out of an open Bible. He will represent evangelicalism with his big smile and a message that would make Screwtape shout “Amen! Preach it brother.”
This is where evangelicalism has come to in 2005. This is what the heirs of the Reformation have come to accept as acceptable. This is what can be endorsed and advertised to evangelicals and be sure to sell millions of copies.
It makes me angry and I want to do something.
I have a simple question.
Is this going to happen with the silence of evangelicals, or will someone speak up? Will Osteen continue his arc to fame and leadership with little or no comment from those in evangelicalism who have the responsiblity of discernment? Are we going to sit still and just shake our heads, or might we do more?
I wonder how many of our churches are already populated by Osteen fans. How many deacons, elders, teachers and worship leaders are enamored with the adorable Osteen and his positive message? How many young people are going to be pointed to Osteen as a true shepherd of Jesus Christ? I know a lot of people in my world are lining up for the Osteen message as if he were just another version of Rick Warren. He’s not. He’s not one of us.
Make no mistake about this: Osteen isn’t confused about Jesus like many of the prosperity preachers you hear on TBN. Osteen is intentionally avoiding irrtiating language about sin because he wants to keep it positive every week. He is not just avoiding mentioning Jesus, the cross and the Gospel just because he is seeker sensitive. Joel Osteen is preaching the no-Gospel, no-Jesus message because it’s filling the church with thousands of people who want to hear it. Osteen will ignore his critics because the common people are voting every week- in book sales, ratings numbers and attendance- for his message.
At the biggest church in the country, Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, Pastor Joel Osteen preaches to some 25,000 people each week — and sin is not on the menu. Osteen said his goal is to “give people a boost for the week.”“I think for years there’s been a lot of hellfire and damnation. You go to church to figure out what you’re doing wrong and you leave feeling bad like you’re not going to make it,” Osteen said. “We believe in focusing on the goodness of God.”
Osteen defends Lakewood’s ways, saying the lively and inclusive atmosphere is attracting a whole new generation of parishioners.
“I have parents tell me all the time that their kids will sit down and watch us on TV or that they want to come to the service because it’s simple and something they can understand,” he said.
Some Lakewood qualities that appeal to a younger set are “the best lighting and the best sound system,” a youth ministry program that attracts hundreds, and every service kicks off with 30 minutes of upbeat contemporary music — not hymns — played by a live band.
“It’s not a churchy feel,” Osteen, 40, said. “We don’t have crosses up there. We believe in all that, but I like to take the barriers down that have kept people from coming. A lot of people who come now are people that haven’t been to church in 20 to 30 years.”
…Lakewood’s attendance has grown so massive that the church recently bought the Compaq Center, a former sports arena, which is being remodeled to hold an even larger congregation.
“This will be the first church in the country to see 35,000 people,” Vaughan said.
He’s being sold to us by people who want to make money off his success, and they are counting on us to be sheep, “baaing” quietly, but going along to the slaughter.
Any analysis of Joel Osteen’s theology is going to have a hard time saying he is proclaiming the Christian message. The most popular preacher in Christianity is proclaiming a theology that is neither Christian, nor Jewish, nor Muslim, but is pragmatically pagan. Pagan in the sense of finding ways to gain the favor of god so he will do good things for you. Manipulating the deity to give you blessings. This is the ultimate example of Luther’s “theology of glory” chosen over the “theology of the cross.” I would rather a non-Christian hear John Shelby Spong a hundred times than hear this. Spong denies it all- outright. Osteen is presented as a Christian, but his message isn’t going to bring you to Christ, the Kingdom or heaven. It’s spiritual cyanide disguised as candy. If there is a hell, Osteen’s message won’t stop you or the people you love from going there, because the savior in his messages is YOU and the salvation he offers is a NEW ATTITUDE, and some resulting real estate.
The question becomes, will evangelicals do anything? Will they say anything? Will they register their objections to Osteen’s reshaping of the Reformation gospel into a positive thinking message that makes Robert Schuller look like John Calvin in comparison?
I have a challenge for one segment of the evangelical community: The Blogosphere. My fellow bloggers.
I want to challenge the Christian Blogosphere to devote at least one substantial post to outing Joel Osteen. Why is a man who doesn’t preach the gospel the most popular preacher in America? Are we going to take note of what kind of message is going to be identified as building the largest church in America? In short, who in the blogosphere is willing to stand up and say “Joel Osteen’s message of positive thinking as a way to God’s favor isn’t the Christian Gospel.”
I want to challenge my fellow bloggers to do something most evangelicals won’t do: speak up. I want you to post something. I want you to send that post to other bloggers. Send those posts to evangelical leaders, magazines and reporters. Send them to the publisher of Osteen’s book. Send them to pastors, elders and staff members. Send them to World and ask why Joel Osteen’s abandonment of the Gospel of Christ and the cross isn’t front page news. Send those posts to Max Lucado and John Maxwell and ask why they have endorsed a ministry that purposely avoids mentioning Jesus Christ, but eagerly embraces a different message. Send those posts to Christianity Today, Relevant, Boundless, Discipleship Journal and anyplace else you can think of.
Let’s ask the questions:
Is Joel Osteen a representative of the evangelical Gospel if he believes that Christianity is about getting blessings from God in this life?
In a time of suffering, AIDS, persecution and sacrifice by Christians around the world, is Joel Osteen the person who should speak for Christians who believe in the message that is being suffered for and died for by thousands?
When evangelicals have been represented by John Stott and Billy Graham, are we going to be silent while Osteen becomes the new voice of evangelicalism?
Is Osteen preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or are these “lifts for the week” something else entirely?
Why are evangelicals embracing this man, his message and his ministry? What’s wrong with us?
My challenge:
1. Write a post about Osteen.
2. Encourage other bloggers to do the same. (Forward this link if you wish.)
3. Send it out. Raise the questions, speak the truth. Nail something on the door of the world.
I can’t bear to think of those who have come before us handing us the Gospel through all their faithfulness and sacrifice, and we give it to a man like Osteen; a man who doesn’t want to preach the glory of Christ, but the possibilities of a positive attitude. A man who has betrayed the gospel and is growing rich and powerful on that betrayal.
Will you join me?
Hi. I was sent a link to this article by a friend of mine, and have answered by posting about Osteen in my own blog. If you like, you can follow the link I’ve placed in this comment. Otherwise, just know that you’ve got a fellow soldier in me.
Soli Deo gloria,
Aaron Adams
I have often sorta dialed past Joel Osteen and get a creepy feeling when I here him preach. Usually I am revolted and do not know why. Thanks for expalining it to me. You are right Tony Robbins is at least honest about what he is doing. imonk, I appreciate you keeping to the subject and asking that the Penecostal bashers, and other theological arguements do not apply here. To me Theology is a discussion for another time and place. If a person preaches the Gospel of Virgin Birth, death and resurection, then you can sweat the small stuff in grandiose theological discussions. You get the basics correct and God will lead you where you need to go. Encouraging Bible reading and study is what helps people.
i’m not a theologist … just a regular joe doing the best he can in the world to keep it straight and narrow.
i’m a catholic, and One Salient Oversight’s post i founf offensive.
lot’s of people i feel don’t even know joel, haven’t watched his show .. yet post here from reading info from the web.
i just want to say this … if your church is lakewood, and his speaking is your only exposure to Christianity … your only weekly dose, then yes … i can understand the negative feelings as there could be a lot more Biblical teaching in his sermons.
that said, if you add his positive message on top of a strong biblical based foundation, i think joel’s words are excellant. we get a lot of fire and brimstone, and this world needs the education for certain, but make no mistake … his words really do help create a positive mental attitude, there is nothing wrong in that … it’s far better then to go through life with a weak spirit, in fear. sometimes the sheep need to be fed the verses that backup the fact that God did not create garbage.
we could all use a little more faith – Matthew 17:20
and regarding the getting of young people to church … i think they need to be reminded that God Loves them First … before their Sin.
Greg G.: Allow me to respectfully disagree and say that God’s love becomes a bigger deal when we realize that we are sinners, and that love in fact makes us more aware of our sin and how unworthy we are of it. If we deserve love then God is obligated to give it to us, and doesn’t Scripture say something about how He’s not obligated to anyone?
Osteen makes this comment in the FaithReader interview:
“There’s a chapter in there on how God enlarges us in our times of distress. I think I used that scripture in there.”
He says, “I think I used that scripture.” I am not sure what “that” scripture is, but “that” quote seems to sum up his “theology,” use Scripture if you can to provide some Biblical legitimacy. However, you cannot teach what he teaches and teach the Bible at the same time. They are not compatible. For those who wonder what all the fuss is about, that is it. He gives the impression of Biblical teaching. Have you seen the opening of his program? He leads the masses in some speel about how they promise to do whatever the Bible says, and then he proceeds to sell them his chocolate-covered clouds, which is as Biblical as Feng Shui. He is giving them Marx’s opiate. He is leading people astray. Therefore, he is a dangerous man.
do you think Osteen is to X’ers
what Rick Warren is to Boomers?
Rasselsas. I think The Xers would be really turned off by Osteen. I think he is a boomer guy all the way.
Greg G:
I answered you here:
http://www.boarsheadtavern.com/archives/2005/02/01/00026868.html
Michael–Keep on stirring up the waters. I would put forth that Joel Osteen may be one of the many whom John warns about in 1 John 2:22-23. Read my post at:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/coriakinredeemd/380.html
I have thought of a good riposte to those who claim that our work here is causing a split in the church – as though voicing our concerns is not unifying the church.
The fact is that we are not causing the split – all we are doing is highlighting that the split exists. It wasn’t us who chose to stop obeying God and preach a different gospel.
Osteen and those like him are the ones responsible for splitting the church.
Thank you thank you for speaking out about Osteen. He is leading weak Christians astray, like a wolf in sheep’s skin.
I’m a bit concerned by the comparisons of Rick Warren and Joel Osteen. While I’m no fan of Warren, I have no doubts that he truly believes and understands the gospel. If my SBC relatives tell me they’re going through the PDL, I could care less (so long as they don’t try to get _me_ to read it). However, if somebody tells me that they’re into Joel Osteen, I will start to be concerned and quite possibly motivated to try to turn them away from him.
Shame on you. It is premature to take this argument to the public without at least having a personal dialogue with the accused. Half of these posts readily admit that they either, have never heard of Osteen, never listened to him, never read his books and yet judgment flows readily and freely.
The truth is that most of us have already cast our vote in respect to his message and ministry. None of us goes there and none of us contributes there. In the guise of protecting other sheep we malign and criticize a man we know little or nothing about.
I appeal to you, discontinue dragging other believers through the mud just because we may not like the way they package the message, the way they dress, the way they look and the way we define success. Osteen and I and you will have to answer to a God who knows the motives and intents of the heart. Be faithful to the message and save your energy for the prayer closet. We all like to believe we have a prophetic mantle like Elijah or John the Baptizer, but our ranting has little of the “thus saith the Lord.” It sounds more like jealousy, nitpicking, and judgmentalism.
One final thought, as a general rule I rarely listen to any televangelists. I encourage our people (I am a pastor) to study the word of God for truth and avoid mass marketing attempts to reach the world (that includes purpose driven living, seeker-sensitivity, health and wealth etc.). The vast majority of the work of God is done by individuals sharing the gospel, living out the gospel and prayerfully asking God to send forth laborers to reap the harvest.
Pljr,
First of all, as Mike has already stated numerous times, Joel has made himself and his teaching public, in numerous venues (print, TV, internet, etc). With public exposure comes public accountability.
Second, check the beginning of the post that started this kerfuffle. Two links are provided, and Mike specifically requested that readers read those interviews *before* posting.
Third, if we *are* the “one, holy, universal, and apostolic” church, then we cannot ignore what one church does or does not do regarding the Gospel, simply because we don’t attend there ourselves. Especially if that church or that teacher is being held up as a role model and a trendsetter.
And finally, in light of your last paragraph, have *you* compared what you believe to what Joel says and teaches? Are you so sure that you and Joel are on the same page?
Joel Osteen appears to be the John Tetzel for the feel-good 21st Century America. While Tetzel peddled indulgences so that Pope Leo X could build St. Peter’s Bascilica, Joel Osteen peddles self-indulgence so he can build his empire.
Hank Hanegraaf of the Christian Research Institute, may have some personality flaws, just as Martin Luther did. But that does not justify the Catholic Church’s slanders against Luther or the Word-Faith charlatans’ and the Rapture speculators’ slanders against Hanegraaf.
Joel Osteen appears to be the John Tetzel for the feel-good 21st Century America. While Tetzel peddled indulgences so that Pope Leo X could build St. Peter’s Bascilica, Joel Osteen peddles self-indulgence so he can build his empire.
Hank Hanegraaf of the Christian Research Institute, may have some personality flaws, just as Martin Luther did. But that does not justify the Catholic Church’s slanders against Luther or the Word-Faith charlatans’ and the Rapture speculators’ slanders against Hanegraaf.
Sorry I posted twice. When I clicked the first time, nothing seemed to happen, and I thought I had moved my mouse. Please delete my second post and this one.
Is destroying the man the best option? Should not Matt. 18 be followed? Has anyone confronted him, spoken to him in love to get clarity on his theology? Shouldn’t someone give him a chance to define his view of Jesus and turn around (repent) if his views are false.
Let us not repeat the Salem witch trails, let’s instead show the world confrontation done in love to restore a brother or help clarify a brother’s standing. Then his whole church could experience a revival of Jesus.
I read an artical on this guy earlier this week in at Washingtonpost.com. And one thing comes to mind:
Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Family Christian Store’s “Book of the Year”
(any guesses?)
Joel Osteen – _Your_Best_Life_Now_
Dave, before posting a comment, please read the post that Michael left. The comments are supposed to be about this post. You did not read “UPDATE 3″.
I am with you all the way! Good work!
I’ve sent links to your blog to the moderators of three Yahoo groups…one for Reformed singles, the other for recovering Charismatics, the other, five hundred theology wonks.
Also, am praying the Lord would have mercy, and send true revival.
IHS
Mary
Destroy the Man?
Salem Witch Trials?
Whoever you are sir, could you please list a single sentence I have written that in any way suggests either of these two things? If you do not specifically do so, then I will expect an apology.
The Matthew 18 thing has gotten two long posts from me and they are on the Update list. You haven’t even read the original post. All you’ve read is the headline, and you are pissed. WHen you care enough to read about what I have said and not said, I will talk with you. Otherwise, good day.
I’ve posted my essay “Talk Hard” up on the main page. If you think that the driver of a school bus calling a ditch a ditch is wrong, please read it.
And one more time: Warning the church that a sheep is actually not a sheep is not a matter of reconciliation. Where Osteen takes my parking space, my space in line at Taco Bell or my wife, we can be reconciled. When he says faith is a positive attitude and sin/Jesus/Gospel aren’t worth mentioning, then I will warn, not reconcile.
(I’m seeing Jesus in Matthew 23. “Can we just work this out guys?” Hello??)
pjlr said: “I appeal to you, discontinue dragging other believers through the mud just because we may not like the way they package the message, the way they dress, the way they look and the way we define success.”
My response:
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Osteen preaches another gospel, which is really no gospel at all. I am not attempting to drag another believer through the mud; I am attempting to assist other believers in exposing a deceiver. “Even a dog barks when his master is attacked.”
What an incredible display of self-righteousness! If we have a problem with a televangelist or mega-church pastor, we can disagree without resorting to character assassination. Most of us only have a glimpse, a snapshot of the man and his ministry. It is totally unfair to judge him on such flimsy evidence. You can criticize and/or debate specific points of his teaching, but it is a sad day when we play judge and jury.
I’d simply say, back off and discuss the relevant points of his alleged theological errors, but remember, his wife and his kids have to put up with these attacks.
In an attempt to be keepers of the theological gate, we have resorted to behavior that is unbecoming children of God.
>character assassination
One more time before I ban you. Give me a single line of character assassination, intent to destroy or Salem Witch trials.
pjlr:
Was Paul engaging in “character assassination” when he said “As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed”?
If not, then neither am I. If so, then we have a Biblical precedent. Either way, your point is irrelevant. Those who preach a gospel other than the Gospel of Christ are to be accursed, and Joel Osteen is preaching another Gospel. Can you prove otherwise? Ample evidence has been given by many people to show that this is the case, but all you’re saying is “what a bunch of baloney!” You lack any substantive argument. The argument you are opposing is this:
1. Ministers are called to preach the Gospel, to be accountable for doing so, and to preach nothing BUT the Gospel.
2. Joel Osteen preaches a message of self-help by virtue of positive thinking and is self-consciously opposed to preaching about sin, Hell, Jesus, the cross, or the justice and mercy of God.
3. The Gospel is not a message of self-help by virtue of positive thinking, but the reliance of helpless sinners on the mercy of God in Christ alone for salvation.
4. Therefore, Joel Osteen does not preach the Gospel.
5. Therefore, Paul speaks against his like in Galatians 1.
6. Therefore, we have precedence to speak against Joel Osteen in defense of the Faith.
joel is a nice fella. i think he thinks he’s doing the best he can. possibly measuring his “pulpit and message” success by his attendance. anyway, these are my feeble opinions. i do have some good news for all of us that joel and his TV show has planted some seeds. 2 of my friends love his show and watch it faithfully each week. they are in the process of becoming believers and Joel is the seed and topic that gets the conversation started and opens them up for my further talks with them. Joel may not be the perfect man with the perfect ministry, but neither am I. my lousy attitude and sin filled life leave much to be desired (you can ask my friends, they’ll tell you the same
) but by using the grace i live under, and trying to follow Christ best i can, this is what i cling to. my life is quite easy. joel has it quite different. decisions i make may be worth $100 or so, decisions he makes are worth $1,000,000 (at least). pray for him that he does not mix his christianity with the success of his ministry. if we all pray that same thing, instead of cut him down, we will be working together.
Davis,
sheesh
Can I say what you say really frustrates me.
CAN’T WE IDENTIFY WHAT THE GUY IS?
That’s all. I don’t want to hurt him. I don’t deny God sovereignly speaks through asses like me. I don’t want to arrest him. I just want to SAY WHAT HE IS?
Can’t we do that? We do it for Buddah and Satan and Oprah. Why not Joel?
Can you explain?
yes, imonk, lets for a minute call it what it is. there are large aspects missing from his teachings on TV. joel grew up a preachers kid, (i am not, thank the Lord
) so this poor young slob of a spoiled rich kid gets tossed into a situation like he is in… he’s got no clue as to what is going on.. it’s a whirlwind around him. he most likely is being guided by a greedy “christian” bunch of businessMen setting up his huge TV performances and crusades in the largest cities, and they all measure the success by dollar$igns, and they are surely successful at that!! that part is the bad part (i could go into detail about the evil parts of my own “job” as well), but the good part is that my 2 close friends have opened up their lives for Christ, and He is changing both their lives right now. …so the moral of my story is, the wretched man tries to interpret the gospel to another wretched man, and the Holy Spirit, unDoes what mess we make of it, and somehow changes the heart anyway. It doesn’t happen overnight (well sometimes). but i’ve read and i believe that 90% of people that make commitments to Christ do it from one-on-one conversations with close friends over a long period of time. i will say that a night out with Joel at his crusades is not much more than christian entertainment but to IDENTIFY WHO THE GUY IS is a bit harsh and i feel judgmental in doing that, probably becuase of my own shortfalls. is this weak of me?
monk: Go ahead and banish me. It seems to be your m.o. for people who may raise an objection that you don’t agree with. Let me once again (I have read all of your updates) voice my concerns
1. Have you at least tried to contact J.O. Comparing him to Goliath or Philistines is unfair. J.O. claims to be a believer and I think he deserves that simple courtesy.
2. While J.O.’s sermons and writings are out there for perusal, ones complete thoughts are never published. The grid by which we filter other’s thoughts is often influence by our own “flawed” understanding of words, concepts and principles.
3. While J.O. is up front as the leader, I contend that the real problem may be in the pew. In a land with all the resources you could hope for, Christians are still theologically shallow. He may be guilty of no more than dumbing down the gospel, but that is different than watering it down or preaching heresy.
Doug: You asked if I have evaluated what I teach to see if I am on the same page as J.O. I have heard J.O. on a number of occasions and can tell you that my understanding of the Gospel is more developed than what he may be publicly communicating. Again I think we can dissect his message without calling him a “sham” or “Gnostic.”
Aaron Adams: My response to Gal 1 is Phil 1:15-18
I prefer to be more gracious to brothers (and to question J.O.’s salvation as others have, is a cheap shot) in ministry whether they be reformed, arminian or God forbid “Pentecostal.” Sorry, I too should try not be sarcastic
I have a blog. I have posted my thoughts there as your suggestion. I invite everyone to read my thoughts on the matter. God’s blessings.
Davis,
I don’t doubt that your friends are experiencing “something” but I would caution you into using this as a pretext for assuming that God uses Osteen’s ministry.
I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit works in our hearts to make us believers. I saw it in my sister 15 years ago as she struggled to understand God and, after 3-6 months, was converted.
But you need to understand that CONTENT is important. Your friends may like Osteen, but if you look at the content of Osteen’s message you will find the gospel missing and you will find the word of God missing. Without these two things, the Holy Spirit will NOT be working in your friends lives through Osteen’s ministry.
If you check out the posts above you will see a quote from a buddhist who listens to Osteen all the time. You’d think that would be a good thing? No. They guy thanks Osteen for making him a better Buddhist.
There is no doubt that your friends are being influenced by Osteen’s teaching. But, in my mind, there is no doubt that this influence is NOT A RESULT of the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.
BTW – I only criticise Osteen from what I know. Is he really a “Rich kid” and a “slob”? We here in this forum who are debating his lack of gospel, not his childhood bank account and personal hygiene habits. Heck, it’s 11.15am here in Australia and I haven’t had a shower yet.
My blog that I mentioned above can be found at http://www.SinnerandSaint.typepad.com
pjlr,
1) I contend, sir, that you have not spent the time to read the articles mentioned here at this website that explain WHY we are taking this action. Read imonk’s articles on “The role of the critic in Christianity” and respond to the arguments there in a logical fashion.
2) You are accusing us of behaving in a way that you have behaved towards us. In psychology this is called “projection”. You have made assertions about our intent and yet you have refused to answer our own specific questions. I suggest that you do the research, read imonk’s article, read all the other articles that have been written about Osteen, read all the comments on this comment page and THEN come back at us with a cogent argument.
3) “While J.O.’s sermons and writings are out there for perusal, ones complete thoughts are never published”. This is wimping out. the lack of gospel in JO’s sermons and writings are there BECAUSE they are not CENTRAL to his message. What he writes and preaches about are what is important to him.
4) “He may be guilty of no more than dumbing down the gospel, but that is different than watering it down or preaching heresy.” He has not “dumbed it down”. He has not even watered it down. He has removed it altogether. That is heresy.
pjlr:
You really are a piece of work.
Osteen has not offended me and I have no scriptural need to confront him because his books and interviews are all over the place telling me he is a motivational speaker, and I am simply saying let’s say so. YOU on the other hand, have accused me of:
a. Wanting to destroy him
b.Character assassination
c. Having the mo of banning people (and I have banned no one on this thread)
d. conducting witch trials.
TWICE I’ve asked you to produce evidence of these things, and you simply refuse, instead calling me more names like “self righteous.”
I’ve confronted you, I’ve asked you for civility, and you simply hurl more lies my way.
There is no need to ban you. Your credibility speaks for itself.
I had the same reaction the first (and only) time I listened to one of his sermons. I was disturbed for days.
pjlr: You, sir, fail to realize that grace and love are perfectly capable of existing in the same space as calling a spade a spade. If we’re calling Osteen out, it’s because we love the church and we want to see him and the people he’s deceived come to repentance. So there.
Besides, doesn’t it seem a bit ironic to you that you’re judging people for being judgmental? Hm.
As I read the Osteen interviews one question comes to mind. Where is the preaching of Christ crucified that is to some a stumbling block and to others foolishness?
Count me in. I’ve posted my 2 cents worth on my blog…
Solo Christo,
It’s in I Corinthians 1 and 2. I cannot imagine what Osteen does with those passages.
Boy, the Inquisition has nothing on you guys. Your scorched earth policy is frightening. I’ll sign off and let you have your little world to yourselves. Don’t bother replying as I won’t be there to respond.
Tune in tonight for the best of pjlr:
Destroy Joel!!
Salem Witch Trials!!
Inquisition!!
Character Assassination!!!
Commenters Banned!!!
Puppies Eaten!!!!
Babies Pinched!!!!
UPS Packages arrive late!!!!
No prizes in my Cracker Jacks!!!!
When this is what you see going on because one fat bald blogger wants to be sure we all hear Joel say what Joel is plainly saying….you need a Coke.
pjlr,
In the off chance that you do return here and read some of our postings, please understand the following points.
1. All of us here who are working to “out” Joel Osteen do so out of a passionate regard for the gospel of Christ and because we aim to honour our Lord. While this attitude does not necessarily mean we are correct, it does mean that we are not doing this for our own selfish ends or because we unreasonably hate someone.
2. The fact that we have come into conflict with you is not because we hate you or wish to destroy your Christian faith. We are aiming to challenge you and we all hope and pray that you will do your own research into Osteen’s ministry.
3. In Romans 1:16, Pauls says that he is not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of salvation for everyone who believes. In 1 Corinthians 2:2, Paul says that he decided to know nothing while he was with the Corinthians except Jesus Christ and him Crucified. Now if you compare these two verses with what Osteen is saying, you will discover that Osteen does not believe the gospel is powerful, and the content of his preaching is totally void of the cross.
We’re not doing all this out of spite.
If Osteen was in exactly the same financial and geographical location he is now; and if he was still the pastor of Lakewood church and still had 25000 people attending services; and if he was still appearing on TV and still released best selling books; and if, let’s say, that in all these things he was firmly and clearly preaching the gospel of Christ crucified… then none of our actions would’ve taken place at all. imonk would never have written the article he did, and this whole conversation we are having on this discussion thread would never have taken place.
The man doesn’t preach the gospel. That is our concern. It is as simple as that.
Absolutely dead-on; I did a post on my blog in December, and I’ll do another. I will not judge his heart–only God is qualified. But I can judge his message, and without ugliness or meanness in any way, it’s very simple: this man is not a Christian preacher–of any sort, much less evangelical. Will link to you and join in this work.
Byron
a ticking time blog
http://www.byron-harvey.com
pjlr,
It’s probably moot at this point, as everyone else has had their say, but…
“Doug: You asked if I have evaluated what I teach to see if I am on the same page as J.O. I have heard J.O. on a number of occasions and can tell you that my understanding of the Gospel is more developed than what he may be publicly communicating. Again I think we can dissect his message without calling him a ‘sham’ or ‘Gnostic.’”
Is it a question of being “more developed”? The concensus (and I have read nothing in all the citations, links, and cross-references for and against to say otherwise) is that the difference runs deeper than that. The difference between a “less developed” gospel and the *whole* gospel may make all the difference in the world. Given the nature of our cultural, ecclesiastical, and personal troubles, is this any time for a “less developed” Gospel? The exhortations in the New Testament to preach the *whole* gospel, regardless of popularity or results, are too numerous to mention. If someone in a small flyspeck church were preaching the same thing Joel does, it would be no less of a tragedy. The greater tragedy here is that many thousands in that church (not to mention who knows how many more who watch on TV or read his books) aren’t getting the “more developed” gospel. With great power and influence comes great responsibility. Nobody at his church (it would seem) is holding his feet to the fire on this (that happens all too often in churches with “superstar” pastors, I’ve seen it) – so somebody has gotta do it. Hard as this may be for you, try to look past what you perceive as the “self-righteous name-calling” and listen to what we’re trying to say!
I read your comments and several of the posted comments and this is what I would like to ask all of you. “Why aren’t any of you encouraging us to pray for this guy?” Paul was killing our forefathers and still God saved him and used him mightily!
It’s so easy to find fault. But what sets the children of God apart from the world is we interceed with spiritual weapons that are mighty to the bringing down of strongholds!Bless them that curse us and pray for them that despitfully use us. I believe Jesus said we do these things so that we might be the sons of God!
I pray for all of you that God will set you free. This guy needs our prayers and so do his followers. Jesus is bigger than all of the wrong and when 2 or more of us agree in our Saviors Name things happen. A man who is wrong can be righted, regardless of what he has done! Theres a beam in all of yours eyes. Clean it out so you can be used to remove the speck in an others!
God’s will be done!
This kind of superspiritual response again indicates to me that the Gospel itself matters a lot less than _________ (fill in the blank.)
The pastoral epistles say that it is perfectly right to identify a false teacher as such. It’s absolutely right. The prophets did it. Jesus did it. The Apostles did it. But we’ve got people who have laundered out anything that says the Gospel has been abandoned. Turn up on TBN and we have to embrace the whole circus.
Then we have to hear this: Instead of identifying Osteen as a false teacher, why aren’t you ___________________? OK, why aren’t you folks _________________________ instead of wasting time on my blog?
Has anyone read the New Testament lately?
“we interceed with spiritual weapons that are mighty to the bringing down of strongholds!”
Believe it or not, brad, that is excatly what we are doing here. Our critique of Osteen is actually spiritual warfare.
But the tools of spiritual warfare include much more than just prayer. In Ephesians 6 Paul mentions truth, righteousness, the gospel, faith, salvation and the word of God.
The TRUTH is that RIGHTEOUSNESS can only be given to people by God through the message and work of the GOSPEL. Through FAITH in what Christ has done on the cross, we have the promise of SALVATION. How do we know this? It is there in the WORD OF GOD.
By stating that Osteen is not preaching the gospel, we are engaging in Spiritual Warfare. And the tools we are using are those mentioned in Ephesians 6. Opposition is therefore to be expected.
If I read the 200 plus comments on three discussion threads I’ve monitored on this topic, I could write a book:
“The Big book of 100 things You can and should do rather than talk about the Gospel”
Or
Why Galatians 1:8-9 Isn’t In My Bible”