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	<title>Comments on: Ortland: Reduced to Jesus Only</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Mich</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259716</link>
		<dc:creator>Mich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259716</guid>
		<description>Amen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259463</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259463</guid>
		<description>thomas dunbar wrote&quot;
Lately, though, it has struck me that the hymnody of churches like the one we attend are indeed very heavily weighted toward the worship of the Son so that the Father, who is greater than the Son and Spirit, and who is to be the Principal toward whom worship is directed, actually is given a place inferior to that of the Son, in a way similar to the elevation of the Spirit among Pentecostals.&quot;

Really?

My bible says that all worship is directed toward God, in toto, not just the Father.
If anything, the Father and certainly the Holy Spirit direct all worship to the Son.

Regardless, all are equal. There is not a hierarchy.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All One. All distinct.

We want to frame the Trinity in terms that we can grasp.

It is beyond human understanding. It is a faith belief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thomas dunbar wrote&#8221;<br />
Lately, though, it has struck me that the hymnody of churches like the one we attend are indeed very heavily weighted toward the worship of the Son so that the Father, who is greater than the Son and Spirit, and who is to be the Principal toward whom worship is directed, actually is given a place inferior to that of the Son, in a way similar to the elevation of the Spirit among Pentecostals.&#8221;</p>
<p>Really?</p>
<p>My bible says that all worship is directed toward God, in toto, not just the Father.<br />
If anything, the Father and certainly the Holy Spirit direct all worship to the Son.</p>
<p>Regardless, all are equal. There is not a hierarchy.</p>
<p>Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All One. All distinct.</p>
<p>We want to frame the Trinity in terms that we can grasp.</p>
<p>It is beyond human understanding. It is a faith belief.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259424</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259424</guid>
		<description>Michael,
That second paragraph should be engraved into stone and worn around every Christian&#039;s neck as a constant (and weighty) reminder of what counts.

I sent the entire entry to all my readers, reminding them that when &quot;Church of Christ&quot; is substituted for &quot;Reformed,&quot; it fits them perfectly.

Welcome back from the sabbatical.  I wonder if the students and staff will notice any difference in you.

Blessings, brother,
Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,<br />
That second paragraph should be engraved into stone and worn around every Christian&#8217;s neck as a constant (and weighty) reminder of what counts.</p>
<p>I sent the entire entry to all my readers, reminding them that when &#8220;Church of Christ&#8221; is substituted for &#8220;Reformed,&#8221; it fits them perfectly.</p>
<p>Welcome back from the sabbatical.  I wonder if the students and staff will notice any difference in you.</p>
<p>Blessings, brother,<br />
Dan</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259129</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259129</guid>
		<description>I found this in my old files.  I can&#039;t remember who did it:

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, &quot;Stop! don&#039;t do it!&quot;

&quot;Why shouldn&#039;t I?&quot; he said.

I said, &quot;Well, there&#039;s so much to live for!&quot;

He said, &quot;Like what?&quot;

I said, &quot;Well...are you religious or atheist?&quot;

He said, &quot;Religious.&quot;

I said, &quot;Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?&quot;

He said, &quot;Christian.&quot;

I said, &quot;Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?&quot;

He said, &quot;Protestant.&quot;

I said, &quot;Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?&quot;

He said, &quot;Baptist!&quot;

I said, &quot;Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?&quot;

He said, &quot;Baptist Church of God!&quot;

I said, &quot;Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?&quot;

He said, &quot;Reformed Baptist Church of God!&quot;

I said, &quot;Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879,  or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?&quot;

He said, &quot;Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!&quot;

I said, &quot;Die, heretic scum&quot;, and pushed him off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this in my old files.  I can&#8217;t remember who did it:</p>
<p>I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, &#8220;Stop! don&#8217;t do it!&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Why shouldn&#8217;t I?&#8221; he said.</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Well, there&#8217;s so much to live for!&#8221;</p>
<p>He said, &#8220;Like what?&#8221;</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Well&#8230;are you religious or atheist?&#8221;</p>
<p>He said, &#8220;Religious.&#8221;</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?&#8221;</p>
<p>He said, &#8220;Christian.&#8221;</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?&#8221;</p>
<p>He said, &#8220;Protestant.&#8221;</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?&#8221;</p>
<p>He said, &#8220;Baptist!&#8221;</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?&#8221;</p>
<p>He said, &#8220;Baptist Church of God!&#8221;</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?&#8221;</p>
<p>He said, &#8220;Reformed Baptist Church of God!&#8221;</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879,  or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?&#8221;</p>
<p>He said, &#8220;Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!&#8221;</p>
<p>I said, &#8220;Die, heretic scum&#8221;, and pushed him off.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnB52</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259098</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnB52</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259098</guid>
		<description>Only Jesus?

What will I do with all my time and energy? No more endless debates about predestination, Eschatology, Baptism, the Lord&#039;s Supper, charismatic gifts, denominational distinctives?

You might think he was promoting &quot;mere Christianity&quot; or something. Doesn&#039;t he know that real Christianity is all about Jesus Plus --?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only Jesus?</p>
<p>What will I do with all my time and energy? No more endless debates about predestination, Eschatology, Baptism, the Lord&#8217;s Supper, charismatic gifts, denominational distinctives?</p>
<p>You might think he was promoting &#8220;mere Christianity&#8221; or something. Doesn&#8217;t he know that real Christianity is all about Jesus Plus &#8211;?</p>
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		<title>By: thomas dunbar</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259048</link>
		<dc:creator>thomas dunbar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259048</guid>
		<description>Hutchens writes, on Touchstone blog, about &lt;a href=&quot;http://merecomments.typepad.com/merecomments/2008/07/losing-god-the.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Losing God the Father&lt;/a&gt;:

....In the paths I travel I have heard from time to time some muted remarks about the tendency of Evangelicals to direct their worship to Jesus rather than the Father.   This never seemed to me much cause for concern because the Son and the Spirit are to be worshipped with the Father, and Evangelical churches are by definition trinitarian.  

Lately, though, it has struck me that the hymnody of churches like the one we attend are indeed very heavily weighted toward the worship of the Son so that the Father, who is greater than the Son and Spirit, and who is to be the Principal toward whom worship is directed, actually is given a place inferior to that of the Son, in a way similar to the elevation of the Spirit among Pentecostals.  Perhaps this has always been the case with this form of American pietism and I am just beginning to notice it, but it bothers me that most of what we sing in church could be just as readily be sung in those modalist congregations--and we have a number of these “Unitarians of the Second Person” in our area--which blend the Persons of the Trinity into “Jesus.”  But if it is an old problem, certainly things haven&#039;t become any better in this regard during my lifetime....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hutchens writes, on Touchstone blog, about <a href="http://merecomments.typepad.com/merecomments/2008/07/losing-god-the.html" rel="nofollow">Losing God the Father</a>:</p>
<p>&#8230;.In the paths I travel I have heard from time to time some muted remarks about the tendency of Evangelicals to direct their worship to Jesus rather than the Father.   This never seemed to me much cause for concern because the Son and the Spirit are to be worshipped with the Father, and Evangelical churches are by definition trinitarian.  </p>
<p>Lately, though, it has struck me that the hymnody of churches like the one we attend are indeed very heavily weighted toward the worship of the Son so that the Father, who is greater than the Son and Spirit, and who is to be the Principal toward whom worship is directed, actually is given a place inferior to that of the Son, in a way similar to the elevation of the Spirit among Pentecostals.  Perhaps this has always been the case with this form of American pietism and I am just beginning to notice it, but it bothers me that most of what we sing in church could be just as readily be sung in those modalist congregations&#8211;and we have a number of these “Unitarians of the Second Person” in our area&#8211;which blend the Persons of the Trinity into “Jesus.”  But if it is an old problem, certainly things haven&#8217;t become any better in this regard during my lifetime&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Sally</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259046</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259046</guid>
		<description>After spending quite a few years studying theology and trying to find the &quot;right&quot; church, I realize the Corleone Family had the right idea: &quot;Take the cannoli, leave the gun.&quot;

There&#039;s something to be gained from most theological perspectives that proclaim Jesus as Savior. Learn from the good, let the rest lay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After spending quite a few years studying theology and trying to find the &#8220;right&#8221; church, I realize the Corleone Family had the right idea: &#8220;Take the cannoli, leave the gun.&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s something to be gained from most theological perspectives that proclaim Jesus as Savior. Learn from the good, let the rest lay.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Rowe</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259029</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Rowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259029</guid>
		<description>A lot of ink (or maybe pixels) are spilled on this blog and others over a kind of internet based Hyper Calvinism.  It has been my experience that you’re typical PCA or CRC church is a lot more tolerant and ecumenical than our “truly reformed” friends would lead us to believe.  The difference between abstract theoretical theology and down in the trenches pastoral work is often vast.  I have worshiped in four self-consciously reformed churches in the last 20 years (three of them very prominent Christ community in Nashville, Little Trinity in Toronto and Redeemer Presbyterian in New York) and I honestly have never encounter the kind of chauvinisms you find so often on the web.  In the last few years I have been moving towards a more sacramental vision of Christianity and frankly the main problems I have is with the “Closed communion” practices of the LCMS, the Greek Orthodox and the RCC.  I have never felt unwelcome in a Reformed Church but the fact that I am not welcome at the rail these “sacramental” churches drives me around the bend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of ink (or maybe pixels) are spilled on this blog and others over a kind of internet based Hyper Calvinism.  It has been my experience that you’re typical PCA or CRC church is a lot more tolerant and ecumenical than our “truly reformed” friends would lead us to believe.  The difference between abstract theoretical theology and down in the trenches pastoral work is often vast.  I have worshiped in four self-consciously reformed churches in the last 20 years (three of them very prominent Christ community in Nashville, Little Trinity in Toronto and Redeemer Presbyterian in New York) and I honestly have never encounter the kind of chauvinisms you find so often on the web.  In the last few years I have been moving towards a more sacramental vision of Christianity and frankly the main problems I have is with the “Closed communion” practices of the LCMS, the Greek Orthodox and the RCC.  I have never felt unwelcome in a Reformed Church but the fact that I am not welcome at the rail these “sacramental” churches drives me around the bend.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-259022</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-259022</guid>
		<description>This is absolutely a wonderful post.  This post highlights biggest things that I try to keep at the forefront of my thinkology and the major highlight of my BLOG.

spadinofamily.wordpress.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is absolutely a wonderful post.  This post highlights biggest things that I try to keep at the forefront of my thinkology and the major highlight of my BLOG.</p>
<p>spadinofamily.wordpress.com</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/ortland-reduced-to-jesus-only/comment-page-1#comment-258892</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 01:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2171#comment-258892</guid>
		<description>I honestly don&#039;t even know what Reformed means in this day and time.
I really don&#039;t know what post-evangelical means unless it means like myself I have a lifetime gutful of JesusWorld.
Whatever group this man Ortlnd belongs to he has stated a powerful truth.
We preach Christ and Him crucified.
Anything less is a stench in the nose of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I honestly don&#8217;t even know what Reformed means in this day and time.<br />
I really don&#8217;t know what post-evangelical means unless it means like myself I have a lifetime gutful of JesusWorld.<br />
Whatever group this man Ortlnd belongs to he has stated a powerful truth.<br />
We preach Christ and Him crucified.<br />
Anything less is a stench in the nose of God.</p>
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