Open Thread: So Where Does A Baptist Go For Spiritual Formation?
August 30, 2008 by iMonk
UPDATE: My apologies for tolerating the troll.
So….imagine that a Baptist (or other evangelical)- like my dear wife used to be, for example- were to decide that he or she wanted to deepen their spiritual life; to grow spiritually and in spiritual disciplines; to seek out spiritual direction and pursue spiritual formation.
Where would they go within their own evangelical, Protestant tradition to find resources, guidance or direction?
OK. I can hear the Catholics and Orthodox giggling already. Cut it out.
Before I leave the open thread to you readers, let me say that this is a REAL PROBLEM.
No one knows how many Protestants and Evangelicals develop a hunger for holiness and spiritual growth, then discover that what awaits them in their own tradition is paltry, often shallow and frequently almost completely unaware of what that hunger needs to be satisfied.
Is it any wonder that it is at the point of seeking out spiritual growth and formation that so many evangelicals are first introduced to the riches of the Catholic tradition, and soon conclude that the greatest resources for the spiritual journey are on the other side of great denominational divide?
Why is it that entire segments of Protestantism have such a comparatively thin understanding of the spiritual disciplines, find contemplation to be suspiciously new age and have almost nothing to say to the spiritually hungry person other than “Get more involved at church?”
Why does evangelicalism produce so few spiritual directors? Why is a pastor like Eugene Peterson- attuned to the importance of the life of reading and prayer- such an anomaly in evangelicalism?
Where are the Protestant and Evangelical places- retreat centers and houses, for example- dedicated to prayer, withdrawal from the world and focus on God?
Why are evangelicals so surprised when they discover that so many of their leaders and celebrities are spiritual empty, stunted or phony?
Once you’ve read “My Utmost” during your quiet time, what then? Where is spiritual growth as a priority in churches and pastoral ministry? Is it inevitable, because of the Protestant spirit, that the person interested in spiritual growth must look to Catholicism for help?
Is this the fruit of the Reformation gospel’s emphasis on forensic justification and imputed righteousness? Is it Protestant to be “weak on sanctification?” Can the wholesale emphasis on evangelism have made us so spiritually shallow that the only thing we know to do is tell someone to “pray more and read the Bible?”
It’s a very important topic, and one I look forward to discussing with you.
Christopher:
I don’t deny the value of reading systematic theology, but I think it is a tendency of Calvinists to think that all laypersons need to become theologians. This explains why almost every gathering of Calvinists is made up of a rather narrow demographic, with high education, similar reading habits, all the same heroes, etc.
I am looking at the resources for classical spiritual disciplines. Whitney knows about this, but I am not sure he is able to select resources from this own tradition that match his presentation.
peace
MS
Michael,
I see your point, *to a point,* about the usual gatherings of Calvinists. At CHBC, I did meet Reformed people that fall outside of the descriptions that you used though. The majority of the congregation was as you described (and they were wonderful, warm people, in my experience), but I also formed friendships at the church with people who definitely did not share all of these traits, and it was a blessing for me, and I hope, for them.
Picture this– government officials happily, seriously sharing about God and their lives with an unemployed person in a wheelchair, and actually listening and caring when he shared in kind… that was only one of my experiences of love in action at CHBC. In other words, the church *being* the church, and organically assisting the process of spiritual formation in each other’s lives.
As long as sites, blogs, and leaders such as http://apprising.org/2008/08/spiritual-formation-just-say-no/ exist, it will be difficult for many an evangelical to be bold enough to seek spiritual formation, fearing that doing so is opening up to New Age, occult, and demonic influences.
What are we supposed to do? How do you explain to someone that looking beyond Scripture but within the Christian tradition for guides to spiritual growth is not a denial of sola scriptura? I come to all this as an Anglican of evangelical charismatic background, but at least when the going gets tough I can turn to my high church siblings and ask for a little help.
I haven’t read all of the thoughts posted above, so I may repeat somebody. Nonetheless, perhaps if a Baptist or other evangelical wants to seek spiritual formation and wants more than a book it would require searching out some of those sympathetic souls who have trodden the path already. I know at least one or two evangelical spiritual directors personally, and I know also that Catholics like Henri Nouwen were open to Protestants coming for guidance (if only asking Rome for help weren’t so often seen as a betrayal of the Reformation). A wise friend once noted that there have probably been many Protestant mystics, they just didn’t know it.
PS: Re going to other denominations, Christopher A Hall (too tired and lazy to check the reference) notes that cross-pollination is probably good for the garden of God’s Kingdom.
The unemployed person in the wheelchair being me, that is… which right there, means that I was very different, in certain ways, from the majority of the congregation– and loved no less for it. Reformed doctrine and theology in the life of a church *can* lead to warmth, winsomeness, and open-heartedness. Too often, things may not happen that way… but it is possible.
Matthew, I was fascinated to learn on the other end of that link that the Southern Baptist Convention is a hotbed of neo-paganism, apostasy, and crypto-Roman Catholicism!
Is nothing to be trusted anymore?
As an apostate neo-pagan and definitely non-crypto Roman Catholic, I am finding this discussion extremely interesting. Is the evangelical tradition really so hard put to it? There must surely be some historic resources in your development – who were your early preachers and founders? (Please pardon the complete ignorance shining through that question, but I’m not even American, so I haven’t a clue here.)
Ah: Why not read the bible and do what it says? Or is that just not sexy enough?
To parphrase Vince Lombardi “This is a Bible”
I didn’t read through all the comments, so I’m not sure if that has been said: One great place to look at what’s being done is the Institute of Spiritual Formation at Talbot School of Theology. As a graduate, I can say that there are some pretty great things happening there. There was a ton of integration of Catholic writings in my course work… lots of St. John of the Cross, etc… and definitely a pretty wide range from different traditions. But all taught through an evangelical lens. Even then….the whole Catholic/Protestant thing didn’t even really come-up in our class discussions. There was simply an acknowledgement that Protestantism has dropped the ball with spiritual formation, and we should put it back into play and draw upon those who have gone a bit further in that direction, even if they’re from another tradition. ISF is training spiritual directors and offering spiritual direction for the community at Talbot/Biola. It is an incredibly honest and intense program that is more experientially-driven than academically-focused. I don’t know anywhere else where a bunch of Protestants sit around and talk about their Dark Night of the Soul and favorite Henri Nouwen book. I spent 3 separate weeks on solitude retreats at Catholic monasteries as part of my curriculum. I’ve seen that it’s definitely possible to appreciate, learn from, and dialogue with our Catholic friends without there necessarily being a crisis of faith. I think the key was that we were all doing it together… a Protestant community was entering the Catholic writings and practices together, so there wasn’t a lack of understanding among our group.
All that to say, it’s out there. They’re churning-out some pretty amazing graduates who are desperately looking for opportunities to use what we’ve been taught and experienced within the spiritual formation and spiritual direction realm. So yeah, I’m a former Baptist/Protestant evangelical (or pretty much whatever you are, Michael) spiritual director trained in the Catholic sense of spirituality. My problem is that I don’t know anyone looking for me. =)
Oh, and—- http://www.biola.edu/spiritualformation/about/
And it only took 56 comments before someone (Greg) found the whole discussion unbiblical and dumb. For the internet, that’s really pretty good.
What if what is missing in most of our attempts at spiritual formation in America these days is the silence/absence of the Spirit?
I consider Anglicans to be Reformed (see the 39 Articles). We have the BCP as the touchstone of devotion and prayer, and then authors like William Law, A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life. See also, John Donne and George Herbert.
I recently found this site — love it. Thanks.
10 yrs ago I read Celebration of the D. and Willard’s Spirit of the D. As a life long SB, it opened a whole new world for me. A few years later I read The Divine Conspiracy — one of the last chapters in the book, where Willard describes how to implement spir form in the local church is excellent, although I wish he would write an entire book on the subject.
I can relate to what many of my fellow SBCers have experienced. I see a shallowness toward the whole subject — our strategy for discipleship is 1)win them, 2) enroll them in a SSchool class, and 3)get them “plugged-in” to ministry. The AMAZING thing is that we really seem to feel that this takes care of it. People can go to their pastor when then need spir counseling.
As a SS teacher, I am trying to slowly develop an interest in spir formation and transformation within my class. I am encountering 2 problems: They constantly “split my class” in the classic SBC growth model and 2) they are growing increasing suspicious of the fact that I don’t want to use LifeWay material. OK – I’m a little paranoid on the second point!
I am not from a reformed church, so I am not very knowledgeable about some of the discussions here. I just don’t get why so many in that camp are so anti-spiritual transformation.
I think in the SBC, one will have to pursue spiritual formation by 1) NOT calling it “spiritual formation”, and 2) collecting resources peice-meal: Whitney, Bill Gothard (please don’t laugh – he actually wrote some very detailed and helpful stuff about meditation and fasting), and Blackeby (some may not like his stuff, but I think there is much there to lend itself to spir formation).
PLEASE lend me any help you can. I can SO relate to many of the posts. Thanks.
Greg,
I tried reading the Bible, but needed guidance in how make it work in my life. To be honest, I never have figured out how people could just read the Bible alone. I wasn’t able to ask the question, “How do you do this? What are you getting out of it? etc.” I need the stories of other people and their struggles, I need new parables, I need other ways of looking at things.
But, what I saw, (and I hope that my experiences are the odd ball ones and not the norm) are Bible studies geared for the new believer, not the 20+ year one, I saw leadership positions given more on the basis of genetics, and not years of being a Christian. (male vs female).
Do I have it all now? No, of course not, and I expect that I will be continuing to struggle with this the rest of my life. Does the continuing struggle bother me, nope. If I expect it, it’s actually easier. Especially since, through this and other blogs, I find comrades.
Puritan devotional literature is wonderfully holistic and therefore healing. It addresses individuals with unique struggles. It is not behavioristic, but invites us to look more honestly at what we love. Augustine did have a big influence on them.
I already sent this to Michael but I thought I’d put them out here – my friends in Cincinnati have been living this stuff for years. They’re not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, although they dig deeply in the ground of the ancient Church. They have started something called Sustainable Faith – which is all about spiritual formation, offering spiritual direction, retreats and even teaching spiritual direction. Great, great, solid people. Definitely worth checking out.
Well Micheal, to quote my favorite Roman Catholic writer:
“The Christian ideal
has not been tried
and found wanting.
It has been found difficult
and left untried.”
My point was NOT as you said (reading into my statement, the worst possible meaning, as usual) that: “the whole discussion unbiblical and dumb.”.
My point (and Lombardi’s) was that when something is not working, you go back to the basics. I think one of the big problems with spiritual formation is that people are used to fast food. They just want a Spiritual Happy Meal, and they want it NOW! This is why there is a continuous stream of novelty programs and a quick fix, three easy steps approach to Spirituality in the Evangelical Church. Besides the necessity of the Spirit’s illumination, It takes hard work to study the bible, reflect on it in prayer and live it out in community. People are just plain too lazy do it. They want a quicky lube program they can just show up for, completely unprepared, and come away from with an instant buzz.
On the other side of the pendulum swing, are the Spiritual elitists with their Pseudo-Gnostic secrets that only they can show you. The fact that many of the specific, answers, that are being pedaled are also steeped in Mysticism, Asceticism and the Occult is another question altogether. You asked “Where do you go?” The answer is the Bible! Read out, Prayed out, and Lived out in Community, in Spirit and in Truth.
Anna A
Thanks for that I really resonated with what you said. I completely agree with your complaint about the entry level, lowest common denominator studies that are offered over and over again. There needs to be a means to grow past just getting saved (as important as that is). Willow Creek has just come to realize that this approach has left them with a Church full of new believers who never have the opportunity to grow past spiritual infancy. Unfortunately their reaction seems to abdicate their responsibility and to put the onus on the individual to become “self feeders”. Mature believers are leaving in droves and unfortunately many are being lured in the direction of Church’s and groups that give the impression of providing a deeper spiritual experience but who in fact deny the Gospel itself. We need both, not one or the other.
Blessings
Greg
>People are just plain too lazy do it.
Well, I’m not looking to diagnose my brother as too lazy. I’m here to ask the IM community to talk to one another and share mutual help.
No one is looking for a quick fix on this thread. And I’ll skip the discussion of how you equate asceticism, mysticism and the occult.
peace
MS
So Greg, isn’t it a bit unfair of you to tell us all that 1) we’re lazy and 2) you’ve known the answer all along, but NOT tell us what church we need to be part of to really get the Bible and really get it “read out” and “prayed out?”
I figure that anyone who sees how obviously easy this whole post is should at least tell us where to go to get this Lombardi spirituality that’s done it for you.
And yes, you’re right. You didn’t say we were dumb. You said we were lazy. My bad.
Chris G passed along this note. The web sites he recommends here are excellent.
I go to a missional Baptist Church and granted we do have a “library” available. However, 99% of the books are American Baptist Association authors. Some are okay but alot are just not very good theologically or doctrinally. They almost seem like your Uncle Joe-Bob wrote them in a couple of hours.
I found myself in the same boat. I basically started with some contemporary theologians & authors like Yancey, Piper, and Eugene Peterson. I have read alot of Peterson. From them I looked into who they got inspiration from and kind of worked my way back.
Hope that helps.
Keith
Micheal it’s probably good to skip discussion on how I supposedly “equate asceticism, mysticism and the occult.” I don’t equate them and you have to stretch things and read them in the worst possible light to say that I do. I spoke of “many” of the “answers” (Notice the plurals and the general nature of the statement?) That’s a bad habit you have there brother. Everything old is not gold and the fact that a spiritual practice has been tried before does not in and of itself make it valid. Everything must be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture. If you don’t like that, take it up with the Boss.
As to your other post I said specifically that the answer was hard and that it required diligence and effort in cooperation with the Spirit and other like minded believers. That is the polar opposite of “obviously easy”. You just don’t like my answer so you are mocking it. Problem is that; if my answer is biblical; what are you really mocking? In fact one gets the impression that you would be happy to find or have already decided that there is no answer. I hope that’s not true. I see by reading some of your past postings that you are having a difficult time and I honestly don’t mean to add to it. I’m having a few of my own and I am looking for other brothers and sisters to come along side of so that we can “spur one another on toward love and good deeds.” That’s not found in a building or a denominational structure it’s found in the people of God in whom the Spirit of God dwells because of their shared and complete confidence in the substitutionary death and resurrection of the Son of God on their behalf.
Blessings
Greg
>That’s a bad habit you have there brother. Everything old is not gold and the fact that a spiritual practice has been tried before does not in and of itself make it valid. Everything must be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture. If you don’t like that, take it up with the Boss.
The Boss? What does Springsteen have to do with this?
>Everything must be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture.
Don’t leave us in the dark there, Greg. What exactly in this thread are you hearing that needs to be tested by scripture? And at what church can this be dependably done? I can’t believe you would land in here with all this self-confidence and leave with the final answer under wraps.
And thanks for pointing out my bad habit of pointing out your obvious equation of three things in a sentence. If you are going to use big words we don’t use, at least explain them.
And again, why after 56 comments did you conclude that the problem is we’re “lazy?” What clear commands of scripture did you hear avoided or neglected?
And if you are going to accuse me of not wanting an answer, where did you get that idea?
Your commenting privilege is on the line here, so don’t let me down.
Greg, you could not be further off in terms of what I and others are expressing here regarding spiritual formation and wanting something deeper than what we’re finding in evangelicalism right now. You’re being quite presumptuous.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but a lot of my trouble started when I *did* really start digging into my Bible. I had things pretty well under control before then. Everything made sense. But the more I studied, the more I realized that to me God didn’t look quite like everyone else seemed to think he did.
I know my Bible pretty well. I’ve been in church since I was born. I grew up on the mission field. And the longer I’m at this, the more distant God seems and the more isolated I feel. The questions I have and the things I think about don’t seem to bother the people around me. The people I do read who seem to help usually come from other traditions and are often denounced by the leaders in my own.
So no, I don’t find the “go study your Bible harder” suggestion to be helpful in the least.
Ragamuffin
I don’t mean to be presumptuous. I am simply adding my voice to the conversation. I find that when I am feeling down it is time to go and find someone worse off than me and help them. Works every time.
“The only person in my circle of friends and family that seems truly settled and happy with where they are is my Catholic best friend. He gets where I’m at but I’m not where he is. At least not yet.”
The grass is always greener my friend. Experience can be wonderfully self authenticating but digging a little deeper may be in order before you “get where he is”. Ask him what is the Gospel and how is a man justified before God? Read him Romans 5:4-8 and then ask him if he is that man? The answer may surprise you.
“Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”"
I am so glad to have found this site and this particular discussion. These are the very questions I have been struggling with for a long time and I have felt quite alone.
iMonk, you said this about your wife’s experience with Roman Catholicism:
“She participates in eucharastic adoration whenever possible.”
That, more than anything, is something I find seriously lacking in the Evangelical™ tradition. We invoke “coming near to God” and say things like, “Oh the Lord is surely here” all the time. And yet, when it comes to the actual image that Jesus gave the Church in order to know his presence – we play it down and say, “Oh, that’s just a symbol.” It’s part of the absurdity of Evangelicalism™ that drove me away from it.
As for the “why not read the Bible?” pat answer. Sigh. Here’s the problem, the more I read the Bible – the more it creates a dissonance between Evangelicalism and my life. The more I read the Bible, the more I am compelled to read it as part of the Church. The more I read the Bible with the Body of Christ, the less Jesus’ calling looks like “personal savior” Evangelicalism. The Bible, in sure, is what’s screwing up my happy acceptance that Evangelicals™, even in their ideal Platonic form, are the greatest expression of the Church.
Greg, I agree with you, and it appears a majority of the peoples here don’t, so the best thing to do is to bail. I can feel the tension radiating thru my mac, especially from the monk. Even if you said something they agreed with, I think you lost them.
Really, the high road is the only way.
Two Sheds:
>”Why not read the bible and do what it says? Or is that just not sexy enough?”
Taking the high road from that comment isn’t hard, because you can’t get any lower than insulting the entire thread with the arrogant claim that they are ignoring the Bible and you are the only one who isn’t.
Greg is all about one thing: He comes to this site to leave as a victim.
Studying the Bible deeply in terms of knowledge is one of the spiritual disciplines. But I think what Michael is getting at here, and the point of this post, is that it is just one of them, and to reduce spiritual formation to that is a weakness of evangelical churches. We’re not on different sides here, it’s just that some of us are not finding the usual answers in evangelical churches to be thoughtful enough. ‘Just read the Bible more’ avoids the question, even if it is part of the answer.
I know the original question concerned spiritual formation for baptists, but I think you might find this resource helpful. It is the Lutheran Prayer Brotherhood website, which publishes a prayer book and provides a complete chant psalter in mp3 format on their website. The prayers and antiphons in the prayer book are also made available in mp3 format. I listen to them on my music player on walks or before go to sleep. The “Brotherhood Prayer Book is available via http://www.emmanuelpress.us, but I found a used copy on amazon.com.
http://www.llpb.us/
The rosary may not be for every protestant, but I highly recommend, “A Telling of Beads: Discovering the Rosary” by Tony Price as a good introduction. Price is an Anglican vicar and writes about the Rosary from a protestant perspective.
http://www.godspell.org.uk/writing/rosary.pdf
Debbie:
As several have said:
1) Reading the Bible is certainly not anything we disagree on here. We all do that. Greg is the one who implies we don’t. Most of these commenters have suggested ways to read the Bible, chant the Bible, use a lectionary, etc.
2) We all want to read the Bible more, and in more constructive and helpful ways; ways focused on spiritual growth. When a guy flies in here and says we can’t see the answer to our question because we don’t know that we just need to “read the Bible,” it’s absurd.
3) As others have said, “just reading the Bible” carries with it its own issues for SOuthern Baptists and other evangelicals. Only Greg has had the confidence to tell us that he has a completely reliable interpretation. The rest of us find that the more we read the Bible, the less evangelicalism appeals to us.
4) The Protestant and his Bible, alone, or sitting in the sermon is the the esence of the Protestant way of spiritual growth. To be straightforward, most of us have tried this for years, and somethings wrong. I listened to 3 sermons this week so far. One Christless. One Bible-less and one incomprehensible.
I had my Bible open every time.
5) If my goal is to become what evangelicals have told me to become for 30+ years, then just reading the Bible and praying will probably do it. But many of us want more and don’t want to stop where evangelicalism stopped.
peace
MS
psssst…..look here:
http://www.cph.org/prayer
Paul, If you keep plugging that on here I’m going to sue you for a real copy
(Get with Lifeway for an SBC version of that. It will be MUCH shorter.
Interesting thread, great to read all the comments.
I understand where a lot of you are coming from. Personally I’ve never read the second Bible (My Utmost), but it’s on the shelf…been reading a lot of Piper and Andrew Murray recently.
But we all know that there is a point where just theology and spirituality can essentially hinder your growth and leave you feeling restless.
Might I consider more ministry? And not so much ministry as in ushering at church, or really anything at church. Perhaps out in your community more? Go meet someone at a coffee shop, just walk up to them and strike up a conversation…or if you wanna go oldschool, try street preaching (which scares me, honestly). Or, and here’s a great one, which will really get you back to the meat of your faith…mentor a new believer. I’ve been doing that recently, and it’s caused me to rethink many a doctrine and figure out how to explain it as well as the opposing views.
All the knowledge we possess is useless to unless unless we can help others.
Interesting. As a Catholic, I am often so spiritually enriched by non-catholic christian writing and scriptural emphasis. It goes both ways you know. And don’t forget that even with all the “deep treasures” of Catholicism available to her, Mother Theresa felt spiritually dry so much. (I know I will get grief for this one).
But I also must say that in my own experience:
Despite the cacophony of complaints about repetitive prayer, the rosary does it for me. Despite the jokes and rolling eyes about celibacy, it has often been celibates, including St Paul, who have affected me the most. Despite the crying of paganism and idol worshiping, it is gazing at a crucifix in a church with candles or incense that I often connect with God. Despite the complaints of communing with the dead, I still feel that I have some friends up there in addition to Jesus.
One more thing, found this in a Andrew Murray book a while back.
“The first step on the way to true spirituality is faith. We must seek the living, all-consuming conviction that the Holy Spirit is in us; that He is the power of God dwelling and working within us, that He is the representative of Jesus, making Him present within us as our Redeemer King, mighty to save. In the union of a holy fear and reverence before the tremendous glory of this truth of an indwelling God, with the childlike joy and trust of knowing Him as the Paraclete, the bringer of the divine and irrevocable presence of Christ, this thought must become the inspiration of our life: The Holy Spirit has made His home within us; in our spirit is His hidden, blessed dwelling place.”
(Greg) I don’t mean to be presumptuous. I am simply adding my voice to the conversation. I find that when I am feeling down it is time to go and find someone worse off than me and help them. Works every time.
Greg, I’ve been a Christian for 21 years. I’ve sat under some amazing pastors and teachers. I know what a Bible is and how to use it. It has sustained me and still does. But simply telling me to go read my Bible isn’t going to fix this. I may not be able to completely articulate what it is I’m going through, but believe me, you’re talking to me and others here as if we’re too dense to see something you think is obvious and that’s not the problem here.
The grass is always greener my friend. Experience can be wonderfully self authenticating but digging a little deeper may be in order before you “get where he is”. Ask him what is the Gospel and how is a man justified before God? Read him Romans 5:4-8 and then ask him if he is that man? The answer may surprise you.
Look, me and him have had some legendary discussions and debates. I’ve read Trent and the Catechism on the subject. I’ve read about the effects of medieval nominalism on theology of the Reformers. I’ve also read Calvin and Luther and Wesley among others. I know what you’re driving at but let me assure you, the Gospel is there too and it’s alive and well in my friend.
You have a very patronizing tone whether you realize it or not and you are presuming a lot.
I think that the different disciplines should be evaluated on their own terms. People tend to lump them together and believe all are worthy of pursuit or rejection. I think those are both uncritical moves.
In the Lutheran tradition, there is a history of lectio divina. Bonhoeffer’s “Meditating on the Word” offers a lot of advice for pursuing the practice. At Finkenwalde, students were given brief Bible texts to meditate on at length. Luther also practiced it. Oswald Bayer talks of it at length in “Theology the Lutheran Way.” Bayer offers a description of how Luther clung to the external Word, repeating it over and over, to discover God’s revealed will. This was spiritual, but not beginning from within. It is really the opposite of mysticism as it is usually described. Bayer is intriguing because what he describes is perhaps too spiritual for those who would equate Lutheran theology with simply agreeing to what the dogmatics books say, but too exclusive for those who seek God outside His word.
Bayer’s title might put off some Baptists. Bonhoeffer’s has long been popular beyond Lutheran circles.
St. Paul was celibate?
Two Sheds: thanks for the encouragement and the advise.
“I can feel the tension radiating thru my mac, especially from the monk. Even if you said something they agreed with, I think you lost them.
Really, the high road is the only way.”
I have purposely stayed away for a while so that cooler heads might prevail. I don’t think I’m ready to bail just yet, but I will not resort to making personal attacks.
Thanks again
Blessings
Greg
Michael,
I hope that you don’t see this idea of “Just read your Bible” as what I have been trying to convey in my comments on this thread. Reading the Bible is definitely an indispensable part of spirtual formation, as is theological study, but neither of these disciplines is all that is needed, even for “Reformed” spiritual formation.
To be honest, I find it amazing that any serious, thinking, Reformational Protestant would be nervous at the suggestion of Scripture meditation *or* purposeful solitude as a spiritual discipline! I don’t know– maybe some evangelicals are just scared by some of the *terminology* of spiritual formation? Perhaps they don’t understand that when I speak of Scripture meditation, I am not referring to a Christianized form of Zen Buddhism? Maybe they are afraid of the mention of solitude because for them, it brings up thoughts of the most extreme, harsh forms of monasticism? I’m not sure. I just know that when I refer to spiritual reformation, I am thinking of it in my own life similarly to the way that Don Whitney lays out the spiritual disciplines in his book of the same name.
Just reading the Bible, just listening to more sermons, even just serving others sacrificially– as long as the “just” remains as a qualifier, none of these good actions (or any others) will likely bring about Christ-like character in us. What I mean is that the “just” qualifier often reduces Bible reading, or sermon listening, or serving others to a rote action with no passion or expectant enthusiasm. I never want to “just” read the Bible, or “just” study theology or (for that matter) “just” pray or fast or serve. I want to all of these things, but with a heart toward, and an expectancy of, heart and life transformation.
I do think the Puritans (more so the original English ones than the Americans) get a bad rap because of misunderstandings of their ideas of spiritual formation. As a previous commenter noted, at their best, the Puritans were spiritually holistic– very much interested in addressing the whole person, not just external behaviors. To my understanding, that is spiritual formation. John Owen’s The Mortification of Sin is a great example.
I want to *do* all of these things, that is… I’m sorry– it’s the English major in me!
(Everything must be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture.)
“Don’t leave us in the dark there, Greg. What exactly in this thread are you hearing that needs to be tested by scripture?”
Quite a bit actually but I don’t think you are interested in the specifics. Are you saying that all spiritual practices should not be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture?
“And at what church can this be dependably done?”
Are you looking for an address? It’s somewhat ironic that you are accusing me of is the exclusive purview of “the riches of the Catholic tradition,”
Protestants do not have a Pope to give them infallible interpretations of specific scriptures. Protestants count on the illumination of the Spirit using scripture to interpret scripture along with reason and a knowledge of history and have reached broad consensus on how one evaluates the fidelity of spiritual practice’s with scripture.
I can’t believe you would land in here with all this self-confidence and leave with the final answer under wraps.
And I can’t believe that you would so easily dismiss the sufficiency of scripture.
“And thanks for pointing out my bad habit of pointing out your obvious equation of three things in a sentence. If you are going to use big words we don’t use, at least explain them.”
Pass…
“And again, why after 56 comments did you conclude that the problem is we’re “lazy?”
Stop being so incredibly thin skinned and immature. It was a general statement about the general state of the evangelical Church.
Here it is in context:
(((people are used to fast food. They just want a Spiritual Happy Meal, and they want it NOW! This is why there is a continuous stream of novelty programs and a quick fix, three easy steps approach to Spirituality in the Evangelical Church. Besides the necessity of the Spirit’s illumination, It takes hard work to study the bible, reflect on it in prayer and live it out in community. People are just plain too lazy do it. They want a quicky lube program they can just show up for, completely unprepared, and come away from with an instant buzz.)))
Rather than having a spazz, tell me why you disagree with my statement.
“What clear commands of scripture did you hear avoided or neglected?”
Where did I say that?
“And if you are going to accuse me of not wanting an answer, where did you get that idea? Your commenting privilege is on the line here, so don’t let me down.”
What I said was; “In fact one gets the impression that you would be happy to find or have already decided that there is no answer. I hope that’s not true.”
It’s am impression not an accusation and I meant specifically no answer within the evangelical tradition. Your whole post is based on the supposed lack of answers in the Evangelical tradition as opposed to “the riches of the Catholic tradition,…. and how: “the greatest resources for the spiritual journey are on the other side of great denominational divide?”……
You go on to say:
“Is it inevitable, because of the Protestant spirit, that the person interested in spiritual growth must look to Catholicism for help?
Is this the fruit of the Reformation gospel’s emphasis on forensic justification and imputed righteousness? Is it Protestant to be “weak on sanctification?” Can the wholesale emphasis on evangelism have made us so spiritually shallow that the only thing we know to do is tell someone to “pray more and read the Bible?”.”
Lets see; you caricature Protestantism as shallow empty and weak because of it’s view on justification and promote Roman Catholicism as the place to go for true spirituality. It sounds like you already have your mind made up that there is no answer in the Evangelical tradition. Are you fixn’ to leave? I think it’s a valid question.
And there we have it:
1) No answer on where to get the true interpretation you claim to have.
2) Accusation that I deny the sufficiency of scripture, which is a complete lie.
3) Saying I disagree with statements I’ve clearly agreed with.
4) Taunting me to go to Rome.
I and 20 other people have said we’re all about reading scripture. If you can’t get that straight, it’s on purpose. IOWs, you’re here to be a troll and nothing more. You say we need to submit what we’re talking about to the Bible, but you can’t give one specific. You’re just throwing rocks.
Troll feeding is over. You’ve had your chance.
Dear Michael,
I’m sure we can work something out, with you. With LifeWay? I’m not sure whether or not they would identify the Treasury as something that would be received well by their market, which, as you know, is GINORMOUS [and that is the first time I've ever actually used that term in print].
There appears to be a deep concern that anything “written” when it comes to prayer is not, nearly by way of presupposition/assumption, “from the heart” and therefore can not be as “true/real/appropriate” a prayer as prayers uttered ex corde.
But our Lord Christ has given us the prayer of all prayers, and if one checks the Greek, he does not say, “When you pray, pray like this” but, “When you pray, say…”
The really wonderful thing about traditional Lutheran spirituality is that it takes the best of the western catholic tradition, packs it full of Christ and the Gospel, and sets it before us as a wonderful banquet of deep, meaningful spirituality, a real feast for the soul, because it is the Word of God.
This conversation has been, for this non-Evangelical, life-long conservative Lutheran, quite illuminating and interesting indeed.
Paul
Cindi,
Let me add to Michael’s about spiritual direction. I believe that it started as part of the monastic tradition because the rules speak of formation.
It does vary, depending upon the circumstances. The direction that I was receiving when I was looking to see if I had a calling to a religious order of women is very different than now. Now, I am just seeking help in growing as a Christian.
If you are pulled toward mysticism, then you might want to look at the book: “Prayers of the Women Mystics.” Very good.
The Boss? What does Springsteen have to do with this? — IMonk (responding to Greg the Troll)
Well…
They blew up the Chicken Man in Philly last night,
Blew up his house, too…
Greg on IMonk is lookin’ for a fight,
Gonna see what those Baptist boys can do….