Open Thread: So Where Does A Baptist Go For Spiritual Formation?
August 30th, 2008 by iMonk
UPDATE: My apologies for tolerating the troll.
So….imagine that a Baptist (or other evangelical)- like my dear wife used to be, for example- were to decide that he or she wanted to deepen their spiritual life; to grow spiritually and in spiritual disciplines; to seek out spiritual direction and pursue spiritual formation.
Where would they go within their own evangelical, Protestant tradition to find resources, guidance or direction?
OK. I can hear the Catholics and Orthodox giggling already. Cut it out.
Before I leave the open thread to you readers, let me say that this is a REAL PROBLEM.
No one knows how many Protestants and Evangelicals develop a hunger for holiness and spiritual growth, then discover that what awaits them in their own tradition is paltry, often shallow and frequently almost completely unaware of what that hunger needs to be satisfied.
Is it any wonder that it is at the point of seeking out spiritual growth and formation that so many evangelicals are first introduced to the riches of the Catholic tradition, and soon conclude that the greatest resources for the spiritual journey are on the other side of great denominational divide?
Why is it that entire segments of Protestantism have such a comparatively thin understanding of the spiritual disciplines, find contemplation to be suspiciously new age and have almost nothing to say to the spiritually hungry person other than “Get more involved at church?”
Why does evangelicalism produce so few spiritual directors? Why is a pastor like Eugene Peterson- attuned to the importance of the life of reading and prayer- such an anomaly in evangelicalism?
Where are the Protestant and Evangelical places- retreat centers and houses, for example- dedicated to prayer, withdrawal from the world and focus on God?
Why are evangelicals so surprised when they discover that so many of their leaders and celebrities are spiritual empty, stunted or phony?
Once you’ve read “My Utmost” during your quiet time, what then? Where is spiritual growth as a priority in churches and pastoral ministry? Is it inevitable, because of the Protestant spirit, that the person interested in spiritual growth must look to Catholicism for help?
Is this the fruit of the Reformation gospel’s emphasis on forensic justification and imputed righteousness? Is it Protestant to be “weak on sanctification?” Can the wholesale emphasis on evangelism have made us so spiritually shallow that the only thing we know to do is tell someone to “pray more and read the Bible?”
It’s a very important topic, and one I look forward to discussing with you.
You end up with the Quaker mystics, and probably in the ancient-future/Patristics project. Ultimately, “run-of-the-mill” Evangelical ain’t gonna cut it. Most of my friends either went missional Anabaptist, High Church Anglican, or jumped out of Protestantism altogether (of course, my Anabaptist friends would be quick to say they aren’t Protestants either).
Wish I could be more hopeful about average Evangelical Spirituality for you - but I’m preaching a sermon tomorrow that pretty much turns the traditional baptist understanding of Communion on it’s head and shakes it up and down while screaming, “What has it gots in it’s pocketess??” Why? Because I’m pretty sure there ain’t anything there. Looking at the Bible, I dig the idea of sacraments.
Until someone creates something, they’ll just have to go outside their tradition to the books, seminaries, monasteries/retreat centers, spiritual directors, and other people from their tradition feeling the same needs.
At least that’s what I ended up doing.
Even with all the benefit that can be derived from Richard Foster and Dallas Willard on the spiritual disciplines and spiritual formation, it is clear that Evangelicalism as a whole is anything but interested in process. Give us the quick fix!
Last year’s Willow Creek Association’s release of their “Reveal” study promoted engagement in what they termed “spiritual practices”– I guess the term “spiritual disciplines” sounds like too much work. Through my connections to one of the 500 fellowships in the association which was chosen to participate in the first round of the expanded study, I had a chance to complete the survey, and to discover what WCA considers to be spiritual practices.
Besides the expected Bible reading, prayer, church attendance, and worship, there was an inordinate emphasis on such things on listening to Christian radio, watching Christian television, listening to CCM, etc. As long as the our mentality within Evangelicalism is so self- and media-centered, rather than Jesus-centered, we can expect the mile-wide, inch-deep spirituality that characterizes us to continue to predominate.
Well, there is always Johannes Kelpius and his Wissahickon Hermits, living the life of the desert fathers in what would one day become Philadelphia’s Fairmount Park.
The Pietist writings may be one of the few places to find non-Catholic, non-Orthodox resources.
This question has haunted me for almost thirty years. It really cuts to the core of the church’s mission to make disciples– people who increasingly resemble Jesus in thought,actions and character. As a Southern Baptist immersed and blitzed with our programming for discipleship, I can’t tell you how often I have read somebody like Peterson, Foster, Whitney or Willard and felt I was reading a prophet from another world. And that doesn’t even get into Tickle’s Divine Hours or some of Robert Benson’s writings. I would read, explore and pray– and then know that I could barely have a conversation with somebody in my tribe. Once I connected for a few months with Steve Seamonds from Asbury in some attempts to deepen pastors’ spiritual lives–but nothing in terms of a spiritual director.
Why is this absent from our experience? Three brief reasons that I see. First, there is fear of being connected with anything remotely mystical or especially sacramental in nature. We’re so geared to an immediate and pragmatically measurable view of the Christian life. There’s no patience for mystery; the geography of our souls is larger and wilder than most of us have dreamed or allowed ourselves to consider.
Second,we have stunted the gospel into a “sinner pray the prayer and we’re done” transaction for us and for those who have yet to enter a relationshp with Christ, rather than exploring the richness of living the gospel from the inside out for a lifetime. The gospel is more than invitation and evangelism; it is a life that requires thought, quiet, questions, wonder, pain and intentionality. It is much more journey than arrival.
Finally, from a pastoral viewpoint– it can be difficult to impossible for a Southern Baptist pastor to actively prioritize spiritual formation because of intense pressure to produce church growth. The “buildings, bucks and bodies” expectations are intense, visible and loud. Spiritual formation is quieter and less visible. Besides, there’s no box for recording the practice of spiritual disciplines on the annual report!
Several of my friends and myself have exited mainstream evangelicalism for many of the same reasons.
I went Reformed. My friend, who is a pastor, has gone Emerging/house church, and another has replaced it with self study and monasticism.
Some of the people that I know of that have gone full-on Catholic started out very Charismatic. A good example is J. Ambrose Little, a software developer whose blog I read often (http://www.dotnettemplar.net). Although I can’t speak on his behalf, I would think that the more structured form of Catholicism would be intriguing to someone who grew up in a loosey-goosey Charismatic persuasion. I know that is why Reformation theology, more liturgical worship, and theology in general is appealing to me. Heck, I’m impressed that the congregation has enough respect for the Word that they stand when it is read in the worship service.
After I read My Utmost, which I try to read everyday because of his no nonsence, no excuses approach; I usually spend about an hour with my Precept Bible Study. I’m studying 1Samuel and am so convicted by David’s trust in God and my lack of trust in Him. I am using the psalms David wrote during great trials of his life and learning or at least trying to learn how to have a faith like that. This has brought me to much confession in what I really trust in and a desire to trust God as David did. I constantly ask the Holy Spirit to show me the truth about me and what I look like. By bringing me to this study on David,I know I don’t compare but I want to grow spiritually and I keep praying and reading and listening to the gentle nudge of the Spirit.
I have used this same approach for years; I’m still learning and I’m still growing. God has been so faithful,alive, real, caring, intimate,dear,unbending full of grace, mercy and love.
Thanks for that comment, David. (For those in the gallery, David and I grew up in the same church.)
I was thinking while writing this of the Treasury of Prayer I just reviewed on here. Can you IMAGINE in your WILDEST DREAMS any SBC related publisher coming anywhere near this?
Yet, they will spent and publish all day on evangelism, evangelism, church growth, self help, celebrity testimonies and evangelism.
I’d like to hear someone from the Founder’s side of the aisle chime in on this. Do we need to turn to our evangelical past for help?
Stay in touch David.
Michael, I don’t believe that the vapidity (and/or hollowness) of much of contemporary evangelicalism has anything inherently to do with the Reformed emphasis on forensic justification and imputed righteousness. The problem, I believe, is that so many American evangelical churches *don’t take the life of the mind seriously* (having an over-emphasis on emotional experiences), and they don’t take *personal holiness in the life of the believer seriously* (having an unBiblical view of justification that all but divorces it from sanctification).
Where to go for better teaching on spiritual formation? Well, there are many good places to go, as far as reading about it (the better Puritan Paperbacks, Donald Whitney, 9 Marks material), but one thing that I would recommend, if you have never done it, is to attend a Capitol Hill Baptist Church “Weekender” for pastors.
Yes, I know it’s a Baptist church (not a “usual” one though, not by a long shot). I also know that I’ve mentioned this church on here many times before, and I *was* once a member, but they are really doing amazing things. One of the best things is emphasizing the disciplines of spiritual formation at the heart of the very best of the Reformation. I’ve been to many churches, and CHBC is something else. Meaty sermons that are both expositional *and* evangelistic, serious study among the congregation, fervent, thoughtful prayer, genuine fellowship… these things can be found in spades on any typical weekend at the church, and at Weekenders, pastors can see these things *and* pick the brains of the elders as to how this state of affairs has come to pass at the church! (No, I’m not being paid by them to say these things.)
The Weekenders cost money, but I think there might be scholarships available (I’m “poor” myself, by American standards, so I would probably have to make use of one, if I became a pastor and wanted to go!). Pastors literally come from all over the world to the Weekenders. Anyway, just a suggestion.
P.S. I’m from the “Founders side of the aisle,” if that wasn’t apparent already!
I wrestle with this issue, since I’ll be in full-time work in evangelical (or at least Protestant) churches in a few years. I think a big problem in this area is that evangelicals as a cultural group don’t actually desire the presence of God, though of course many members and congregations do. But what we desire on the whole is to have successful institutions. The attendance figures and big buildings and programs are a mediator of grace between Christ and his people. We desire them more. You can see this even in small churches who don’t have these things. The saddest part of visiting or being part of a small congregation is that the members seem always to be either apologising for not being ’successful’ or pining for that state. There is no resting in the love of God, or hope that he can work through small things. And to know that love and hope you would have to ‘go deeper’ in the spiritual life, which would mean turning your back on the desire for institutional success. And then in large congregations the desire for success turns into soul-sucking cultures of commitment and burnout. So the grass is not greener.
So I think the problem is cultural. We have not learned yet to desire the presence of God. If we did, we would find ways, I’m sure. I am currently reading through the Philokalia, and finding a lot of good help there. But it’s not evangelical, alas. I would welcome it if anyone could suggest anything good, because it’s a little difficult to turn up to evangelical churches with Orthodox or Catholic material and get a hearing.
I have no direction into which to point you, only wish to comment upon the irony of things.
My parents and many of their friends, years ago, abandoned Catholicism because they saw so little hunger for spiritual growth within the Church. They begged their indifferent priests for leadership, they talked to other parishoners(who couldn’t have cared less), they were involved in everything that came down the pike: Catholic Charismatic Renewal, Cursillo, various groups on the parish and diocesan level. To no avail. They nearly all left the Church for evangelical Protestantism. And that is where they remain to this day.
Myself, I grew up immersed in the Christian subculture of the 80s and 90s. Over the last several years my reading has been primarily Manning, Nouwen, Kathleen Norris (Presbyterian who spends lots of time at monasteries), etc. So I have come somewhat full circle. Yet everytime I visit a Catholic parish, I experience the same frustration my parents had: people who just seem to go through the motions, mediocre preaching, etc. And the handful of Catholics I do know who take their faith seriously always seem to operate in a narrow context: read only Catholic authors, listen to only Catholic speakers, attend only Catholic gatherings.(They think they’re ecumenical if they read C.S. Lewis).
So I find myself in somewhat the same boat: I am in an SBC church that I love and that has helped me in many ways, yet I still feel like the proverbial square peg in the round hole a lot of the time.
What, are you kidding? Protestants don’t formulate spirituality. That’s Catholic talk. That’s what some of those works-righteousness folks believe will earn their way into heaven because they don’t understand what Christianity is really about: It’s a binding contract between us and Jesus, where we say the sinner’s prayer, and we automatically get free entrance into heaven, no strings attached. Developing your spirituality is for those people whom the devil has tricked into doubting the system… and if you doubt, you cancel the contract, nullify God’s grace, and are going to hell. You need to repent, and turn from your righteous ways!
…Okay, got all the sarcasm out of me. But that is actually the attitude I see way too often among evangelicals.
My tradition, Pentecostalism, actually has quite a lot of spirituality resources. Lots of us (if not most of us) get distracted by the miraculous and the weird, and only seek that. But the point behind the tongues-speaking and Spirit-baptism is to empower the individual Christian to actually live a Christian life of service and ministry.
Of course, it’s not a perfect system. We’ve picked up a lot of bad habits, including the attitude I expressed above. Of those who minister, the assumption is that we’ll each be personally directed by the Holy Spirit, and we wind up with many who refuse to be directed by anyone else (despite the Spirit giving His gifts for the sake of building up one another) and this pride nullifies their message and their growth. The other assumption is that, because we’re led by the Spirit, we don’t have to double-check our “new” revelations with the bible, or that it’s perfectly okay to take the scriptures out of context. Subsequently we have a lot of sloppy theology and teachings.
Despite this, I’ve found some fantastic stuff from fellow Pentecostals, and use it regularly. It’s just that in our stable, one has to dig through a whole lot of poop before one finds a pony. But that’s true of Christianity in general, huh?
Good question, Michael. I’m sure you’re not the only one asking it either. One of my immediate thoughts would be to say “see > emerging church” - I’m sure you get that. This is what a lot of evangelical Protestants have become in search of deeper roots, more ancient connections. Not all of them, but some. I was right in the middle of that - perhaps not typical, but there, and I have very good friends who live like this, using language like “spiritual direction” and doing the stuff. Of course, I’m not talking about the “emerging church” that is doing this or that just to attract the young folk - the strain I’m talking about is much more serious about being catholic Christians and about doing that which belongs to being transformed into the Image of Christ.
This too: There is a Wesleyan/Methodist end of Evangelicalism. I know the more “Reformed” or generally “Calvinist” elements are the majority in the proverbial evangelical house of representatives, but the Wesleyan stream is very much there and thinks much more about on-going formation as a very generalized rule. Hang out as Asbury for a while and you’ll get a lot of Church Fathers, a whole lot of spiritual direction talk, etc.
The deepest stream is going to be in the Catholic world I think though, especially in Monasticism. Don’t think that every-day, parish-going Catholics are much more familiar with the term spiritual direction, or involved in it, than most Protestants. From my experience, they’re generally not. But the waters are deep for the swimming if someone is up for it. And as you know, there’s no necessity for converting to drink at that deep well.
I think, also, there are a lot of people looking for spiritual direction and thinking of it in some “official” kind of way - as if one can only get that kind of thing by making appointments with someone who has an office and a shingle out front. This is very limiting and a bit off. If we’d think of this thing in much more of a relational way, I think we’d find a lot more “spiritual direction” going on in places we wouldn’t expect.
I knew I was going to be long on a subject like this. This subject is huge to me. The spiritual direction thing is kind of in my blood. The whole transformation of the Christian person thing is what it’s all about for me. Good subject. Peace to you Michael.
Well, I think that inside of Wesleyan thought there are viewpoints that attempt to solve this gap, ie-the original rigid form of Wesley’s clubs and bands. I know that Asbury as many things going on, and my reformed-baptist friends do the whole “vally of vision” thing.
Richard Foster is responsible for alot of stuff of the topic, but I think Foster is really responsible for many evangelicals going to Anglicanism or the RCC.
Their are several “emerging” groups that are putting together prayer books, and I think a good bit of college ministries are walking the path of discipline as well.
But I agree, inside of traditional Baptist piety, there is nothing out that will not raise eyebrows or make people thing you’re “going Catholic”.
For what it’s worth, I got a lot out of being exposed to Protestantism at college (I’m Catholic).
After I got over being creeped out by the earnest youth-groupie vibe or depressed by how predictably that enthusiasm fades, anyway..
I read Internet Monk, Parchment and Pen, Theological Scribbles, Dr. Platypus,
Telling the stories that matter, Nigel Barham’s blog along with a number which I visit and read less frequently.
Through them I learn, am encouraged, chastised, convicted, and driven to prayer. Each has a different flavor and perspective and I find I learn different sorts of things from each. It may be spiritual formation of a slightly different kind, but I have found that I have certainly grown spiritually over the last six months, primarily because my brain has been more engaged with spiritual things.
Mike Bell
For an undergrad course I took on spiritual formation, one of the texts we used was by Ken Boa, who also has a website with spiritual formation resources. The url is:
http://www.kenboa.org/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=128&zenid=guganrtvga790haqarcb5qird4
If I remember right, he’s with the SBC. God give you wisdom. Peace.
Hmmm. I’ve always been the sort to delve deeply into whatever spiritual path I follow, and I’ve followed more than a few growing up and as an adult before finding myself following Christ in an SBC context. I tried. I really tried to immerse myself in their perspective and follow the recommended practices. But it just collapses over time. The practices are shallow, especially if you have any other sort of spiritual background, Christian or not. And intellectually — well it’s difficult to hold more than an ironic faith in beliefs which are a hundred, two hundred, or at most four hundred years old within the context of a religion which firmly roots itself in historical events more than two thousand years ago. It ends up as shallow intellectually as it does spiritually. I guess I’m still “Southern Baptist” simply because I’m not anything else. But I don’t think this journey has really helped anyone in my family and has actively harmed some of my children. I find time in an SBC church simply something to grit my teeth and endure silently.
David really hit a key point with the statement at the end of his post that, “Besides, there’s no box for recording the practice of spiritual disciplines on the annual report!”
That part hits home to me since I was raised in a Southern Baptist church and currently pastor a Southern Baptist church. Thankfully, I have been blessed with a church that isn’t as hung up on the reports. Back in the spring we had a former pastor of mine, who does Bible teaching conferences now, come up to talk with our deacons about doing one-to-one discipleship with newer/less mature believers in our church. It is something he did at the church we were a part of when God turned our life upside down to enter full-time ministry. I was happily discipling a guy one-on-one at the time. God really used that relationship and the intentional pursuit of discipleship to build both of us spiritually.
I don’t think discipleship can be “programmed” into existence. It has to be desired and intentionally pursued by those who would be disciples. One-to-one discipling for me has been a way to connect people two at a time who are genuinely seeking to know God better and letting them encourage one another as they both pursue God and learn what it means to be a disciple.
I have explored this dimension of spirituality by attending some of the weekday services provided by the local Episcopal Cathedral.
The way I like to describe my longing to others is that someone didn’t tell me the whole story but the rest of the story found me just in time to save me from throwing it all away.
When I meet people from my side of the pew (evangelical/Southern Baptist) whose life has no sense of eternal rhythm and yet are in desperate need of it, I point them to the Book of Common Prayer.
It has provided me words when I didn’t have them and prayers when I needed them the most. And the fact that every single prayer is rooted in Scripture satisfies the echo of sola scriptura of my evangelical heritage.
(David, Robert Benson has a new book out called “In Constant Prayer.” You should read it. It’s a primer on the BCP written for those who have no context for it.)
Twelve years ago, I was asking the same question, and did not find anyone to help me find the answer. (Other than a remark from a seminary student working at my favorite bookstore. I asked about Protestant mystics and Madeline L’engle. “I don’t consider her Christian.”
Perhaps this quote from Fr. Richard Neuhaus (while still a Luthern) may shed some light.
“Protestantims, so insistent upon the worship owed to God alone, tends to neglect or despise the holy that is less than Absolute. Roman Catholicism, so sensitive to the myriad manifestations of the sacred, tends to worship the holy that is less than God.”
Spiritual formation? For me, that’s prayer, communion, reading, writing and teaching - making the bread.
Transformation? Suffering and testing - breaking the bread. That’s what I find really changes me.
And when that’s done, God will pour me out like wine.
(I’m a big fan of James Jordan and Peter Leithart.)
In a baptist church I long for more full-congregation participation in ritual, and the teaching of a wider understanding of the “freight-train” of Bible behind the sacraments in the OT.
So, I’m a minister with a congregation in Southern Virginia. I am, also, the author of the blog Mike Bell mentioned above: “Telling the Stories that Matter”. I was called by my congregation, largely, out of a desire to cultivate an environment of discipleship and spiritual formation. One of the ways I’m doing it is to remember 3 things in particular:
1) “Change isn’t quick.” I think many of us seminary-types look for quick change because we were put through the greenhouse-like-environment of seminary. Change happens in bursts but it is, typically, a long slow process that takes a commitment to presence, right?
2) “Let the one with ears hear…” Sometimes, people aren’t ready or prepared to hear what it is that needs to be said. So, when I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall, then I try to focus on having a good conversation with that brick wall.
3) “Bring the water to the people in a cup they recognize.” I had a professor who used this sentence to describe the process of introducing new things to church-folk. So, I started my blog and I refer people to it if they’re looking for something different in the world of spiritual discipline and formation. We’re looking at doing some book clubs and spiritual formation groups and, maybe, even a program to house and feed strangers and travelers.
It’s a process. Are we changing the world? Probably not. Is anybody listening? Only those with ears.
I fear that sometimes we become so obsessed with large-scale change that we forget that it starts small. We have to make the change in us and then invite people into it, I guess.
Anyway, I don’t want it to sound like I know exactly what to do because I don’t. These are just some things I’ve observed as part of my job–a job that deals heavily with the topic.
People who seek a deeper spirituality often do so because they are enduring some kind of suffering. That was definitely the case for me. In the Baptist church, the reaction was generally to quote Romans 8:28 and offer to pray for me. Nice but not very satisfying.
In Catholicism there is a deeply developed theology of suffering. The church teaches that we can join our suffering to that of Christ on the Cross, offering it as a sacrifice from which God will bring good. It gives meaning to our trials in a way that the Protestant traditions cannot.
There is a dark side to this, too. Some Catholics will tell you to “stop whining and offer it up.” That’s not very helpful, but thankfully it has been rare in my experience.
I have found that Don Whitney’s ministry, Center for Biblical Spirituality, is an excellent place to start. Also, SBTS has just formed a doctoral program in biblical spirituality. We are the first non-catholic seminary to do so.
As a person born in the Dutch reformed traditon, came to Christ as baptist, going to an independent baptist bible college, then back to reformed for seminary, I am suprised that there has been so little mentioned of Anglican spirituality in our discussion. That’s where I stopped. I went to the UK for my PhD at Durham University, got ordained in the Church of England and found a place to bring it all together.
You find it all there. Anglicanism is Protestant, has a high view of the authority of Scripture and a robust tradition of vocations to the religious life, spiritual direction and daily offices of prayer.
I am back in the States now and serving in the Episcopal Church. I don’t want to get into a discussion about the TEC, just to encourage you to explore the Anglican way as so many other evangelicals have. Ruth Hayley Barton told me on the National Pastors Retreat in 2006 that she attends an Episcopal church, for example.
I suppose some attention to spirituality at the academic level is a step in the right direction, but I don’t quite see what these Reformed Baptist programs- and that’s what we are talking about, right?- are going to draw on.
Are they just going to study Calvinistic theology and call it spirituality?
Whitney is the most progressive person in the SBC on this subject, but I still don’t see how the reformed can take the lead on this when their view of the true church is generally restricted to the Puritans, Calvin, Spurgeon and the modern Reformers.
One note if you aren’t a regular IM reader: I will not post comments that encourage conversion to other churches. Appreciation, yes. Conversion, no.
I agree with Christopher Lake. The current evangelical movement definitely avoids and “pooh poohs” the life of the mind. History and the rich tradition of the Church and even the Reformation are seen as being “old” or even liberal. Forensic justification and imputed righteousness are not the problem because most evangelicals don’t even know what they mean (as evidenced during the White Horse Inn’s current series). What is more important to evangelicals is emotion and the resulting spiritual experience.
Scott: I think I’d add a few qualifiers to what you posted. Things are bad, but there are lot of exceptions and more than a few signs of hope in some places.
Hi, from sunny South Africa - former Reformed paradise. I must confess that a couple of the above posts are definitely above my league. And I don’t mean my post as an offense, just trying to share my journey. But this I know (from experience): a relationship with Christ does not primarily hing on what one reads (although that surely gives one the opportunity to hunger for other people’s experiences with Him). To me, and I am young in walking with Him (not merely living church doctrine), this relationship is definitely a journey, a day by day walking or sometimes plodding, alongside Him, sharing all who I am with Him and trying to allow Him to form me, or lately, trying to grasp that of which I’ve become part of in Him. It’s a very individualistic thing. My journey started when I tried to disciple a released convict and fell into sin, which led me to ask God Who He really is. And Him being a Person, He came around and opened my eyes to passages in the Bible regarding His personality. From there I realized that the apostels much have been able to hear His voice as to daily follow Him. And I tried to follow on that, with wonderful, hilarious, scary consequences AND A DEEPENING IN MY RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. So, yes, I’m probably a mystic as well, but I try to keep it a bit real by measuring all against the Bible. (Which might seem a bit narrow minded, but what the heck).With so many ‘truths’ out there, I suppose only the Truth can really be trusted.Yes, I’ve gone through a Quacker experience, but I learned the lessons to be learned during that episode. And am frigthingly looking forward to next bit of adventure with Him. Santification, in my opinion is not something that I can produce, rather it is something that grows in me as I go through the seasons and times He has appointed for my life. Not that I should just sit back, rather to ask Him: ‘What am I to learn from this?’
Greetings from a springy SA…
In Lutheran congregations, the phrase, “weak on sanctification” is typically an excuse to throw out Luther and replace him with Beth Moore, John Eldridge, and Rick Warren. Luther was not weak on sanctification. One-third of the catechism’s teaching on the Apostle’s creed is entitled “sanctification”. Luther’s view of sanctification was dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit - through the preaching of the Word and administration of the sacraments. We don’t sanctify ourselves anymore than we justify ourselves. But this is not the prevailing evangelical view, which drifts deeply into the waters of semi-pelagianism. As Walter Marshall stated to those crushed under the tyranny of puritan despair: “The practice of true holiness cannot possibly be attained to by seeking to be saved by the works of the law…And in this way those also may see their error, that ascribe justification only to the gospel, and sanctification to the law.” Even John Wesley called sanctification a work of God’s grace.
I have some sympathy for those leery of contemplative methods, although I bitterly disagree with their equating contemplation with New Age. There are plenty of historical examples where these methods eventually replaced the work of the Holy Spirit with human effort, rather remaining tools in the hands of the Holy Spirit. But these same critics seem blind to the temptation of replacing the Holy Spirit with ten pragmatic steps to the wild-at-heart/purpose-driven/life you’ve always wanted.
I believe strongly that contemplative methods and spiritual disciplines have a place in the church, along with images, statues, candles, prayer beads, etc. I think Gary Thomas (a Baptist) addresses this well in his “Sacred Pathways”. But one needs to guard against the temptation to depend upon them more than God. An image cannot bring us any closer to God than we already are; but it can help remind us how close He really is - when circumstances might lead us to believe that he is far away. St. John of the Cross addresses the importance of not depending upon spiritual consolations in “Dark Night of the Soul”.
Very timely post for what I’m feeling. Just this morning I was sitting in the Methodist church we’re attending, praying for God to break through this fog I feel I’m in. I mean, the preaching here is good. The music sometimes is. There are plenty of Sunday School classes and Bible studies to join. Why aren’t any of the normal, evangelical means of connecting with God working anymore? I desperately want to experience God and I feel guilty that I can’t pierce through whatever surroundings I’m in and worship and connect in spite of it.
Meanwhile, my parents are gently bugging me to come try the Baptist church they’ve just started attending. This after bugging me for years to come to the other Baptist church they left our old Pentecostal church for. My wife is getting more and more plugged in at the Methodist church and I just internally sigh and wonder what’s wrong with me. The only person in my circle of friends and family that seems truly settled and happy with where they are is my Catholic best friend. He gets where I’m at but I’m not where he is. At least not yet.
I realize I’m rambling and that your post didn’t offer any solutions. Sometimes it just feels good to know someone else is crying the same tears.
IMonk,
I don’t think that the solution for us, in the Baptist and/or Reformational Protestant churches, is just to “study Calvinistic theology and call it spirituality.” The solution is never to *just study* anything. At least part of the solution is to make our study more than an academic exercise in gaining intellectual knowledge. Theological study, properly understood and done, should be a life-changing encounter with the living God! Also, study should lead to *action*– repentance, praise, prayer, genuine fellowship with other Christians, fasting, evangelism, and other works of service and mercy. In turn, this grace-fueled, grace-empowered, action should help to form in us, more and more, the character of Christ.
Regrettably, as far as specific works on spiritual formation, I have not read nearly as much I should have in my own Reformed Baptist history. I’ve heard that John L. Dagg is helpful for some. Have you read To The Golden Shore: The Life of Adoniram Judson? His life has *much* to teach about spiritual formation in the midst of deep suffering. The compilation of spiritual testimonies, Why I Am A Baptist (published by B & H, edited by Russell Moore and Tom Nettles), is surprisingly devotional in places. I have come back to it again and again and have been challenged and blessed.
I will try to think of more Baptist works that are helpful, insofar as spiritual formation. The key, though, is not *just* to read anything, but to let all that we read, and all that we do in general in life, bring us to the living God in awe, reverence, and wonder. The more this happens, the more we will change. It’s obviously much easier said than done, but as I understand it, this is the path of spiritual formation, for Baptists or for any other Christians.
One other thought– the best of the “modern Reformers” whom I know of (such as Mark Dever and Ray Ortlund, Jr.) believe and preach that the “true church” is by no means restricted to historic Reformed Protestantism, especially if what one means by that is five-point Calvinism. Yes, Dever, Ortlund, and others are five-point Calvinists, but their view of “the true church” is much more catholic (universal) than what one would get from simply taking an historic survey through Calvinist theological history.
Christopher:
I would be interested in what a reformed version of spiritual formation would be like. I’ve been hanging around the reformed SBC for 20+ years, and all I can see is either 1) more doctrinal reading (Dagg is a systematic theologian) and 2) more Puritan devotionals (and the Puritans have value but also problems.)
The reformed (with the exception of Doug Wilson) reject the Christian calendar entirely, making me wonder what is the framework for daily worship going to be.
Puritan spiritual formation was largely about large doses of preaching, church discipline and Olympic length prayers. Anything smacking of Catholic spirituality is out. It just seems like a set of problems quite similar to where the SBC is now.
peace
MS
What does deeping ones spiritual life, growing spiritually and in spiritual disciplines, and seeking out spiritual direction and formation involve? What does it look like? What do the RC/Eastern Orthodox/Anglican communions offer that fosters the above? Is there a formula, a strategy? Is it in the liturgy? If it’s in the Saturday afternoon/Sunday morning liturgy, where is it the rest of the week?
This isn’t a “gotcha” question. I honestly don’t know, and I’ve been feeling a pull toward mystic Christianity, but I’m utterly ignorant of the subject other than whatever I’ve read of Brother Lawrence (and possibly some John Piper, but it was a couple of years ago, so I can’t remember).
I know you can’t speak for her, but could you please explain what it seems to you your wife has found to enhance her spiritual life on her path? What does she say she’s found in there, that she didn’t find out here.
A friend of mine (large church in New York City) has been able to do it outside of the protestant tradition and has been implementing it into his church. Check out their rule of life, daily office, and other resources.
http://www.newlifefellowship.org/
I’ve found it hard to go past Luther himself. Reading his ‘Letters of Spiritual Counsel,’ his thoughts on the Lord’s Prayer and ‘Table Talk’ have shaped me. Particularly in his letters you see a commitment to spiritual formation that is pastoral, passionate, practical and full of humour. His spirituality is earthy and it grabs life and shakes it for all it’s worth rather than escaping from it.
He is not very contemplative, if that’s what you’re after, but for feet-on-the-ground spiritual formation that revels in all apsects of life, he’s hard to beat.
I can empathize with many who have commented, feeling much like Ragamuffin. I am a founding member of a Bible church that is now in the pre-megachurch stages. The services are happy-clappy rock ‘n’ roll. I grin and bear it, but, thankfully, I am able to attend twice a month a small lay Benedictine fellowship where we chant evening and compline prayer and practice lectio divina.
About eight different denominations are represented amongst 20 or so people. When I first started going, an Episcopalian monk visited and spoke on prayer. His depth was so far beyond anything I had experienced that I couldn’t even phrase any intelligent questions. (And the friend who was with me, an evangelical seminary graduate, couldn’t ask any either.) I think one of the problems with much of evangelicalism is that there is no monastic tradition. There’s a deep well there, from the Desert Fathers on, that is so beneficial in spiritual growth.
Also apropos is an essay by Chuck Colson from Christianity Today entitled “My Soul’s Dark Night:
The best of evangelicalism didn’t prepare me for this struggle” at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/december/15.80.html.
Spiritual Director - I actually wanted to study that at Fuller when I was working on my Master’s. Told that it wasn’t available here in my ‘branch’ campus.
I ended up needing one, and never did find one. Only option was possibly a Catholic church - but that never worked out, and I am on my own.
I went to church that I had loved for three years, but my return, also for three years, did not bear the same resemblance, and so I changed to a church my daughter liked and introduced us to, and my teen son liked and requested. I made that change, believing that encouraging his faith was the most important thing for the last two years he would be in my home and under my wing.
Since he left to go to university, I have stopped going - got to the point where I couldn’t stand it anymore. So I stay home, and try to figure out what to do and where to go - and ask God to help me. Meanwhile, I read, pray, read the Bible, and yes, watch a lot of Christian television. It’s amazing what you can find at all hours, at midnight and 4 in the morning when sleeplessness hits. Gradually, I move from teacher to teacher on these television programs. And still I have no idea where to go, or who can help me to move forward when I feel so stuck.
I have been to about every church here in my local community. My most recent favourite was an Anglican church, and believe it or not, I cannot bring myself to commit to a church founded on the murderous adultery of the King of England.
So….even tried to go back to Catholicism, but they wouldn’t let me have my son baptized there unless I made a vow to raise him as a Catholic. I told them I would raise him as a Christian, but that was not good enough, so they wouldn’t baptize him. So how can I go to a church like that?
I will say that the parish priest singled me out,and ministered to me for a month or two in such a way that only could have come from the Holy Spirit. He was an incredible blessing to me.
I am lost and yet not lost - because I know the Lord is right here with me. Just don’t understand this vast season of frustration with my lack of a church home.
Michael,
If truly all that you have seen in the reformed SBC for 20+ years, as far as spiritual formation, is doctrinal reading and Puritan devotionals… well, honestly, that makes me sad, and that has simply not been my experience. Again, I would encourage you to go to a CHBC Weekender for pastors. There is so much evident, winsome love there for God and for the church (local and world-wide), which at CHBC means *people,* not just buildings, that I can’t help but think you would be positively affected by it.
As I wrote above, it’s not just about study, including for Reformed SBC’ers (at least, the ones whom I have spent time with)– it’s about study that leads to knowing God more deeply, which leads to a greater rest in Him, which leads to the actions which are part of the process of spiritual formation. Serious, thoughtful prayer, allowing oneself times of silence for meditation on God and His attributes, true fellowship (sharing each other’s burdens and joys), fasting, evangelism, works of service… these are integral parts of “Reformed” (or non-Reformed) spiritual formation.
Out of curiosity, have you read Spiritual Disciplines of the Christian Life, by Don Whitney? If so, did you find it helpful?
Christopher,
I’m happy your experience has been good.
I renounced Calvinism almost three years ago and stopped reading Piper for the sake of my own faith a year ago. I’m almost 52 and I’ve attended Founder’s Conferences from the time long before the “Calvinistic Resurgence.”
I’ve commended Don Whitney on this web site in the past and I appreciate what he does.
I don’t see anything at the 9 Marks site about Spiritual Formation as I understand it. 9 Marks is about church reformation and equipping pastors for Calvinistic reformation in the SBC. I greatly appreciate what they do, but in terms of resources I just don’t see anything beyond a Calvinistic approach to sanctification (Tripp, Bridges, etc) and Puritan spirituality.
These make a positive contribution that I appreciate.
And as for attending conferences…..I’ve been to too many. That was a kind of “spiritual formation” exercise of its own.
peace
MS
Benb:
Why do you feel these two ways of doing Christian spirituality are compatible in your own journey?
Cindy:
It’s true I can’t speak for my wife. We do not discuss Catholicism or Christianity any more. We read scripture together, but no discussion.
But here’s my observation.
1) She prays the hours day and night, and spends a lot of time with the resources that lead her through that. (Magazine called Magnificat.)
2) She prays the rosary daily, maybe several times a day.
3) She participates in eucharastic adoration whenever possible.
4) She reflects on scripture and other readings with Catholic friends on the internet.
Feeling your pain, iMonk. Almost exactly. In the Founders world, the closest thing I can see to spiritual formation is Puritan spirituality. That’s not what I’m looking for… (and, frankly, I’m not convinced it was all that good for the Puritans, either).
Got no advice. (Heck, I seem to be reading mostly Anglicans these days.) But I would appreciate you posting anything you learn on the subject.
Michael,
To answer your question, they are not compatible. In fact I have only told a handful of people in my church about the Benedictine group. The church folks would be respectful but wouldn’t understand or even want to understand.
Once a month I attend an outstanding Taizé service at a Methodist church. I have told many in my church about this beautiful service, but only two of my closest friends have gone. Others say they are very interested, but have never come. Frankly I think they believe that the rock music “worship” is all they could ever need or want with no clue as to how limited it is. Oh well, God bless ‘em; they’re wonderful people.
I know the focus on this thread is current, living resources/people. Still, I think the 1780 Collection of Hymns for the People Called Methodists, John Wesley’s editing of (mostly) hymns by his brother Charles, is a wonderful resource for spiritual formation..an entire systematic theology of spiritual formation, if you will. Or, at least in so far as that could be done, given the situation at the time. Especially if one supplements that with the The Eucharistic Hymns of John and Charles Wesley.
Michael,
You may be right about 9 Marks and spiritual formation, at least in the terms in which you understand it. I’ll have to search the website further to see if I misunderstood or incorrectly categorized some things in my mind, or perhaps incorrectly remembered certain things.
Could it be that I see certain disciplines as integral to my spiritual formation (such as doctrinal study) which you do not view as integral for yourself at this point in your life? I don’t know; I’m asking. I hate to phrase the question so subjectively, but I’m not sure how else to ask.
For me, doctrinal study is not an end in itself, and it’s not a cold, academic exercise. At times in the past, such study has been both of those things for me, and at those times, my spiritual formation was almost non-existent.
Now, in my life, doctrinal study is a means to encountering God in a potentially life-changing way, which leads to a greater head-and-heart knowledge of, and rest in, Him… which contributes to, and spurs on, the process of spiritual formation in Scripture meditation, times of silence and solitude, fasting, service, evangelism, and so on, as outlined in Don Whitney’s book. If you haven’t checked out Don’s website, BiblicalSpirituality.org, perhaps that would be helpful for you.
To clarify, the Weekender is not a conference, as the word is usually used. It’s a weekend in which pastors come to experience, participate in, and overall, be blessed by the life of a serious, happy, fruitful, and warm church. This includes spending time with the elders. Two and half years at CHBC made an eternal impact on my spiritual life. Many pastors say similar things about the Weekenders.
Christopher:
I don’t deny the value of reading systematic theology, but I think it is a tendency of Calvinists to think that all laypersons need to become theologians. This explains why almost every gathering of Calvinists is made up of a rather narrow demographic, with high education, similar reading habits, all the same heroes, etc.
I am looking at the resources for classical spiritual disciplines. Whitney knows about this, but I am not sure he is able to select resources from this own tradition that match his presentation.
peace
MS
Michael,
I see your point, *to a point,* about the usual gatherings of Calvinists. At CHBC, I did meet Reformed people that fall outside of the descriptions that you used though. The majority of the congregation was as you described (and they were wonderful, warm people, in my experience), but I also formed friendships at the church with people who definitely did not share all of these traits, and it was a blessing for me, and I hope, for them.
Picture this– government officials happily, seriously sharing about God and their lives with an unemployed person in a wheelchair, and actually listening and caring when he shared in kind… that was only one of my experiences of love in action at CHBC. In other words, the church *being* the church, and organically assisting the process of spiritual formation in each other’s lives.
As long as sites, blogs, and leaders such as http://apprising.org/2008/08/spiritual-formation-just-say-no/ exist, it will be difficult for many an evangelical to be bold enough to seek spiritual formation, fearing that doing so is opening up to New Age, occult, and demonic influences.
What are we supposed to do? How do you explain to someone that looking beyond Scripture but within the Christian tradition for guides to spiritual growth is not a denial of sola scriptura? I come to all this as an Anglican of evangelical charismatic background, but at least when the going gets tough I can turn to my high church siblings and ask for a little help.
I haven’t read all of the thoughts posted above, so I may repeat somebody. Nonetheless, perhaps if a Baptist or other evangelical wants to seek spiritual formation and wants more than a book it would require searching out some of those sympathetic souls who have trodden the path already. I know at least one or two evangelical spiritual directors personally, and I know also that Catholics like Henri Nouwen were open to Protestants coming for guidance (if only asking Rome for help weren’t so often seen as a betrayal of the Reformation). A wise friend once noted that there have probably been many Protestant mystics, they just didn’t know it.
PS: Re going to other denominations, Christopher A Hall (too tired and lazy to check the reference) notes that cross-pollination is probably good for the garden of God’s Kingdom.
The unemployed person in the wheelchair being me, that is… which right there, means that I was very different, in certain ways, from the majority of the congregation– and loved no less for it. Reformed doctrine and theology in the life of a church *can* lead to warmth, winsomeness, and open-heartedness. Too often, things may not happen that way… but it is possible.
Matthew, I was fascinated to learn on the other end of that link that the Southern Baptist Convention is a hotbed of neo-paganism, apostasy, and crypto-Roman Catholicism!
Is nothing to be trusted anymore?
As an apostate neo-pagan and definitely non-crypto Roman Catholic, I am finding this discussion extremely interesting. Is the evangelical tradition really so hard put to it? There must surely be some historic resources in your development - who were your early preachers and founders? (Please pardon the complete ignorance shining through that question, but I’m not even American, so I haven’t a clue here.)
Ah: Why not read the bible and do what it says? Or is that just not sexy enough?
To parphrase Vince Lombardi “This is a Bible”
I didn’t read through all the comments, so I’m not sure if that has been said: One great place to look at what’s being done is the Institute of Spiritual Formation at Talbot School of Theology. As a graduate, I can say that there are some pretty great things happening there. There was a ton of integration of Catholic writings in my course work… lots of St. John of the Cross, etc… and definitely a pretty wide range from different traditions. But all taught through an evangelical lens. Even then….the whole Catholic/Protestant thing didn’t even really come-up in our class discussions. There was simply an acknowledgement that Protestantism has dropped the ball with spiritual formation, and we should put it back into play and draw upon those who have gone a bit further in that direction, even if they’re from another tradition. ISF is training spiritual directors and offering spiritual direction for the community at Talbot/Biola. It is an incredibly honest and intense program that is more experientially-driven than academically-focused. I don’t know anywhere else where a bunch of Protestants sit around and talk about their Dark Night of the Soul and favorite Henri Nouwen book. I spent 3 separate weeks on solitude retreats at Catholic monasteries as part of my curriculum. I’ve seen that it’s definitely possible to appreciate, learn from, and dialogue with our Catholic friends without there necessarily being a crisis of faith. I think the key was that we were all doing it together… a Protestant community was entering the Catholic writings and practices together, so there wasn’t a lack of understanding among our group.
All that to say, it’s out there. They’re churning-out some pretty amazing graduates who are desperately looking for opportunities to use what we’ve been taught and experienced within the spiritual formation and spiritual direction realm. So yeah, I’m a former Baptist/Protestant evangelical (or pretty much whatever you are, Michael) spiritual director trained in the Catholic sense of spirituality. My problem is that I don’t know anyone looking for me. =)
Oh, and—- http://www.biola.edu/spiritualformation/about/
And it only took 56 comments before someone (Greg) found the whole discussion unbiblical and dumb. For the internet, that’s really pretty good.
What if what is missing in most of our attempts at spiritual formation in America these days is the silence/absence of the Spirit?
I consider Anglicans to be Reformed (see the 39 Articles). We have the BCP as the touchstone of devotion and prayer, and then authors like William Law, A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life. See also, John Donne and George Herbert.
I recently found this site — love it. Thanks.
10 yrs ago I read Celebration of the D. and Willard’s Spirit of the D. As a life long SB, it opened a whole new world for me. A few years later I read The Divine Conspiracy — one of the last chapters in the book, where Willard describes how to implement spir form in the local church is excellent, although I wish he would write an entire book on the subject.
I can relate to what many of my fellow SBCers have experienced. I see a shallowness toward the whole subject — our strategy for discipleship is 1)win them, 2) enroll them in a SSchool class, and 3)get them “plugged-in” to ministry. The AMAZING thing is that we really seem to feel that this takes care of it. People can go to their pastor when then need spir counseling.
As a SS teacher, I am trying to slowly develop an interest in spir formation and transformation within my class. I am encountering 2 problems: They constantly “split my class” in the classic SBC growth model and 2) they are growing increasing suspicious of the fact that I don’t want to use LifeWay material. OK - I’m a little paranoid on the second point!
I am not from a reformed church, so I am not very knowledgeable about some of the discussions here. I just don’t get why so many in that camp are so anti-spiritual transformation.
I think in the SBC, one will have to pursue spiritual formation by 1) NOT calling it “spiritual formation”, and 2) collecting resources peice-meal: Whitney, Bill Gothard (please don’t laugh - he actually wrote some very detailed and helpful stuff about meditation and fasting), and Blackeby (some may not like his stuff, but I think there is much there to lend itself to spir formation).
PLEASE lend me any help you can. I can SO relate to many of the posts. Thanks.
Greg,
I tried reading the Bible, but needed guidance in how make it work in my life. To be honest, I never have figured out how people could just read the Bible alone. I wasn’t able to ask the question, “How do you do this? What are you getting out of it? etc.” I need the stories of other people and their struggles, I need new parables, I need other ways of looking at things.
But, what I saw, (and I hope that my experiences are the odd ball ones and not the norm) are Bible studies geared for the new believer, not the 20+ year one, I saw leadership positions given more on the basis of genetics, and not years of being a Christian. (male vs female).
Do I have it all now? No, of course not, and I expect that I will be continuing to struggle with this the rest of my life. Does the continuing struggle bother me, nope. If I expect it, it’s actually easier. Especially since, through this and other blogs, I find comrades.
Puritan devotional literature is wonderfully holistic and therefore healing. It addresses individuals with unique struggles. It is not behavioristic, but invites us to look more honestly at what we love. Augustine did have a big influence on them.
I already sent this to Michael but I thought I’d put them out here - my friends in Cincinnati have been living this stuff for years. They’re not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, although they dig deeply in the ground of the ancient Church. They have started something called Sustainable Faith - which is all about spiritual formation, offering spiritual direction, retreats and even teaching spiritual direction. Great, great, solid people. Definitely worth checking out.
Well Micheal, to quote my favorite Roman Catholic writer:
“The Christian ideal
has not been tried
and found wanting.
It has been found difficult
and left untried.”
My point was NOT as you said (reading into my statement, the worst possible meaning, as usual) that: “the whole discussion unbiblical and dumb.”.
My point (and Lombardi’s) was that when something is not working, you go back to the basics. I think one of the big problems with spiritual formation is that people are used to fast food. They just want a Spiritual Happy Meal, and they want it NOW! This is why there is a continuous stream of novelty programs and a quick fix, three easy steps approach to Spirituality in the Evangelical Church. Besides the necessity of the Spirit’s illumination, It takes hard work to study the bible, reflect on it in prayer and live it out in community. People are just plain too lazy do it. They want a quicky lube program they can just show up for, completely unprepared, and come away from with an instant buzz.
On the other side of the pendulum swing, are the Spiritual elitists with their Pseudo-Gnostic secrets that only they can show you. The fact that many of the specific, answers, that are being pedaled are also steeped in Mysticism, Asceticism and the Occult is another question altogether. You asked “Where do you go?” The answer is the Bible! Read out, Prayed out, and Lived out in Community, in Spirit and in Truth.
Anna A
Thanks for that I really resonated with what you said. I completely agree with your complaint about the entry level, lowest common denominator studies that are offered over and over again. There needs to be a means to grow past just getting saved (as important as that is). Willow Creek has just come to realize that this approach has left them with a Church full of new believers who never have the opportunity to grow past spiritual infancy. Unfortunately their reaction seems to abdicate their responsibility and to put the onus on the individual to become “self feeders”. Mature believers are leaving in droves and unfortunately many are being lured in the direction of Church’s and groups that give the impression of providing a deeper spiritual experience but who in fact deny the Gospel itself. We need both, not one or the other.
Blessings
Greg
>People are just plain too lazy do it.
Well, I’m not looking to diagnose my brother as too lazy. I’m here to ask the IM community to talk to one another and share mutual help.
No one is looking for a quick fix on this thread. And I’ll skip the discussion of how you equate asceticism, mysticism and the occult.
peace
MS
So Greg, isn’t it a bit unfair of you to tell us all that 1) we’re lazy and 2) you’ve known the answer all along, but NOT tell us what church we need to be part of to really get the Bible and really get it “read out” and “prayed out?”
I figure that anyone who sees how obviously easy this whole post is should at least tell us where to go to get this Lombardi spirituality that’s done it for you.
And yes, you’re right. You didn’t say we were dumb. You said we were lazy. My bad.
Chris G passed along this note. The web sites he recommends here are excellent.
I go to a missional Baptist Church and granted we do have a “library” available. However, 99% of the books are American Baptist Association authors. Some are okay but alot are just not very good theologically or doctrinally. They almost seem like your Uncle Joe-Bob wrote them in a couple of hours.
I found myself in the same boat. I basically started with some contemporary theologians & authors like Yancey, Piper, and Eugene Peterson. I have read alot of Peterson. From them I looked into who they got inspiration from and kind of worked my way back.
Hope that helps.
Keith
Micheal it’s probably good to skip discussion on how I supposedly “equate asceticism, mysticism and the occult.” I don’t equate them and you have to stretch things and read them in the worst possible light to say that I do. I spoke of “many” of the “answers” (Notice the plurals and the general nature of the statement?) That’s a bad habit you have there brother. Everything old is not gold and the fact that a spiritual practice has been tried before does not in and of itself make it valid. Everything must be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture. If you don’t like that, take it up with the Boss.
As to your other post I said specifically that the answer was hard and that it required diligence and effort in cooperation with the Spirit and other like minded believers. That is the polar opposite of “obviously easy”. You just don’t like my answer so you are mocking it. Problem is that; if my answer is biblical; what are you really mocking? In fact one gets the impression that you would be happy to find or have already decided that there is no answer. I hope that’s not true. I see by reading some of your past postings that you are having a difficult time and I honestly don’t mean to add to it. I’m having a few of my own and I am looking for other brothers and sisters to come along side of so that we can “spur one another on toward love and good deeds.” That’s not found in a building or a denominational structure it’s found in the people of God in whom the Spirit of God dwells because of their shared and complete confidence in the substitutionary death and resurrection of the Son of God on their behalf.
Blessings
Greg
>That’s a bad habit you have there brother. Everything old is not gold and the fact that a spiritual practice has been tried before does not in and of itself make it valid. Everything must be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture. If you don’t like that, take it up with the Boss.
The Boss? What does Springsteen have to do with this?
>Everything must be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture.
Don’t leave us in the dark there, Greg. What exactly in this thread are you hearing that needs to be tested by scripture? And at what church can this be dependably done? I can’t believe you would land in here with all this self-confidence and leave with the final answer under wraps.
And thanks for pointing out my bad habit of pointing out your obvious equation of three things in a sentence. If you are going to use big words we don’t use, at least explain them.
And again, why after 56 comments did you conclude that the problem is we’re “lazy?” What clear commands of scripture did you hear avoided or neglected?
And if you are going to accuse me of not wanting an answer, where did you get that idea?
Your commenting privilege is on the line here, so don’t let me down.
Greg, you could not be further off in terms of what I and others are expressing here regarding spiritual formation and wanting something deeper than what we’re finding in evangelicalism right now. You’re being quite presumptuous.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but a lot of my trouble started when I *did* really start digging into my Bible. I had things pretty well under control before then. Everything made sense. But the more I studied, the more I realized that to me God didn’t look quite like everyone else seemed to think he did.
I know my Bible pretty well. I’ve been in church since I was born. I grew up on the mission field. And the longer I’m at this, the more distant God seems and the more isolated I feel. The questions I have and the things I think about don’t seem to bother the people around me. The people I do read who seem to help usually come from other traditions and are often denounced by the leaders in my own.
So no, I don’t find the “go study your Bible harder” suggestion to be helpful in the least.
Ragamuffin
I don’t mean to be presumptuous. I am simply adding my voice to the conversation. I find that when I am feeling down it is time to go and find someone worse off than me and help them. Works every time.
“The only person in my circle of friends and family that seems truly settled and happy with where they are is my Catholic best friend. He gets where I’m at but I’m not where he is. At least not yet.”
The grass is always greener my friend. Experience can be wonderfully self authenticating but digging a little deeper may be in order before you “get where he is”. Ask him what is the Gospel and how is a man justified before God? Read him Romans 5:4-8 and then ask him if he is that man? The answer may surprise you.
“Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”"
I am so glad to have found this site and this particular discussion. These are the very questions I have been struggling with for a long time and I have felt quite alone.
iMonk, you said this about your wife’s experience with Roman Catholicism:
“She participates in eucharastic adoration whenever possible.”
That, more than anything, is something I find seriously lacking in the Evangelical™ tradition. We invoke “coming near to God” and say things like, “Oh the Lord is surely here” all the time. And yet, when it comes to the actual image that Jesus gave the Church in order to know his presence - we play it down and say, “Oh, that’s just a symbol.” It’s part of the absurdity of Evangelicalism™ that drove me away from it.
As for the “why not read the Bible?” pat answer. Sigh. Here’s the problem, the more I read the Bible - the more it creates a dissonance between Evangelicalism and my life. The more I read the Bible, the more I am compelled to read it as part of the Church. The more I read the Bible with the Body of Christ, the less Jesus’ calling looks like “personal savior” Evangelicalism. The Bible, in sure, is what’s screwing up my happy acceptance that Evangelicals™, even in their ideal Platonic form, are the greatest expression of the Church.
Greg, I agree with you, and it appears a majority of the peoples here don’t, so the best thing to do is to bail. I can feel the tension radiating thru my mac, especially from the monk. Even if you said something they agreed with, I think you lost them.
Really, the high road is the only way.
Two Sheds:
>”Why not read the bible and do what it says? Or is that just not sexy enough?”
Taking the high road from that comment isn’t hard, because you can’t get any lower than insulting the entire thread with the arrogant claim that they are ignoring the Bible and you are the only one who isn’t.
Greg is all about one thing: He comes to this site to leave as a victim.
Studying the Bible deeply in terms of knowledge is one of the spiritual disciplines. But I think what Michael is getting at here, and the point of this post, is that it is just one of them, and to reduce spiritual formation to that is a weakness of evangelical churches. We’re not on different sides here, it’s just that some of us are not finding the usual answers in evangelical churches to be thoughtful enough. ‘Just read the Bible more’ avoids the question, even if it is part of the answer.
I know the original question concerned spiritual formation for baptists, but I think you might find this resource helpful. It is the Lutheran Prayer Brotherhood website, which publishes a prayer book and provides a complete chant psalter in mp3 format on their website. The prayers and antiphons in the prayer book are also made available in mp3 format. I listen to them on my music player on walks or before go to sleep. The “Brotherhood Prayer Book is available via http://www.emmanuelpress.us, but I found a used copy on amazon.com.
http://www.llpb.us/
The rosary may not be for every protestant, but I highly recommend, “A Telling of Beads: Discovering the Rosary” by Tony Price as a good introduction. Price is an Anglican vicar and writes about the Rosary from a protestant perspective.
http://www.godspell.org.uk/writing/rosary.pdf
Debbie:
As several have said:
1) Reading the Bible is certainly not anything we disagree on here. We all do that. Greg is the one who implies we don’t. Most of these commenters have suggested ways to read the Bible, chant the Bible, use a lectionary, etc.
2) We all want to read the Bible more, and in more constructive and helpful ways; ways focused on spiritual growth. When a guy flies in here and says we can’t see the answer to our question because we don’t know that we just need to “read the Bible,” it’s absurd.
3) As others have said, “just reading the Bible” carries with it its own issues for SOuthern Baptists and other evangelicals. Only Greg has had the confidence to tell us that he has a completely reliable interpretation. The rest of us find that the more we read the Bible, the less evangelicalism appeals to us.
4) The Protestant and his Bible, alone, or sitting in the sermon is the the esence of the Protestant way of spiritual growth. To be straightforward, most of us have tried this for years, and somethings wrong. I listened to 3 sermons this week so far. One Christless. One Bible-less and one incomprehensible.
I had my Bible open every time.
5) If my goal is to become what evangelicals have told me to become for 30+ years, then just reading the Bible and praying will probably do it. But many of us want more and don’t want to stop where evangelicalism stopped.
peace
MS
psssst…..look here:
http://www.cph.org/prayer
Paul, If you keep plugging that on here I’m going to sue you for a real copy
(Get with Lifeway for an SBC version of that. It will be MUCH shorter.
Interesting thread, great to read all the comments.
I understand where a lot of you are coming from. Personally I’ve never read the second Bible (My Utmost), but it’s on the shelf…been reading a lot of Piper and Andrew Murray recently.
But we all know that there is a point where just theology and spirituality can essentially hinder your growth and leave you feeling restless.
Might I consider more ministry? And not so much ministry as in ushering at church, or really anything at church. Perhaps out in your community more? Go meet someone at a coffee shop, just walk up to them and strike up a conversation…or if you wanna go oldschool, try street preaching (which scares me, honestly). Or, and here’s a great one, which will really get you back to the meat of your faith…mentor a new believer. I’ve been doing that recently, and it’s caused me to rethink many a doctrine and figure out how to explain it as well as the opposing views.
All the knowledge we possess is useless to unless unless we can help others.
Interesting. As a Catholic, I am often so spiritually enriched by non-catholic christian writing and scriptural emphasis. It goes both ways you know. And don’t forget that even with all the “deep treasures” of Catholicism available to her, Mother Theresa felt spiritually dry so much. (I know I will get grief for this one).
But I also must say that in my own experience:
Despite the cacophony of complaints about repetitive prayer, the rosary does it for me. Despite the jokes and rolling eyes about celibacy, it has often been celibates, including St Paul, who have affected me the most. Despite the crying of paganism and idol worshiping, it is gazing at a crucifix in a church with candles or incense that I often connect with God. Despite the complaints of communing with the dead, I still feel that I have some friends up there in addition to Jesus.
One more thing, found this in a Andrew Murray book a while back.
“The first step on the way to true spirituality is faith. We must seek the living, all-consuming conviction that the Holy Spirit is in us; that He is the power of God dwelling and working within us, that He is the representative of Jesus, making Him present within us as our Redeemer King, mighty to save. In the union of a holy fear and reverence before the tremendous glory of this truth of an indwelling God, with the childlike joy and trust of knowing Him as the Paraclete, the bringer of the divine and irrevocable presence of Christ, this thought must become the inspiration of our life: The Holy Spirit has made His home within us; in our spirit is His hidden, blessed dwelling place.”
(Greg) I don’t mean to be presumptuous. I am simply adding my voice to the conversation. I find that when I am feeling down it is time to go and find someone worse off than me and help them. Works every time.
Greg, I’ve been a Christian for 21 years. I’ve sat under some amazing pastors and teachers. I know what a Bible is and how to use it. It has sustained me and still does. But simply telling me to go read my Bible isn’t going to fix this. I may not be able to completely articulate what it is I’m going through, but believe me, you’re talking to me and others here as if we’re too dense to see something you think is obvious and that’s not the problem here.
The grass is always greener my friend. Experience can be wonderfully self authenticating but digging a little deeper may be in order before you “get where he is”. Ask him what is the Gospel and how is a man justified before God? Read him Romans 5:4-8 and then ask him if he is that man? The answer may surprise you.
Look, me and him have had some legendary discussions and debates. I’ve read Trent and the Catechism on the subject. I’ve read about the effects of medieval nominalism on theology of the Reformers. I’ve also read Calvin and Luther and Wesley among others. I know what you’re driving at but let me assure you, the Gospel is there too and it’s alive and well in my friend.
You have a very patronizing tone whether you realize it or not and you are presuming a lot.
I think that the different disciplines should be evaluated on their own terms. People tend to lump them together and believe all are worthy of pursuit or rejection. I think those are both uncritical moves.
In the Lutheran tradition, there is a history of lectio divina. Bonhoeffer’s “Meditating on the Word” offers a lot of advice for pursuing the practice. At Finkenwalde, students were given brief Bible texts to meditate on at length. Luther also practiced it. Oswald Bayer talks of it at length in “Theology the Lutheran Way.” Bayer offers a description of how Luther clung to the external Word, repeating it over and over, to discover God’s revealed will. This was spiritual, but not beginning from within. It is really the opposite of mysticism as it is usually described. Bayer is intriguing because what he describes is perhaps too spiritual for those who would equate Lutheran theology with simply agreeing to what the dogmatics books say, but too exclusive for those who seek God outside His word.
Bayer’s title might put off some Baptists. Bonhoeffer’s has long been popular beyond Lutheran circles.
St. Paul was celibate?
Two Sheds: thanks for the encouragement and the advise.
“I can feel the tension radiating thru my mac, especially from the monk. Even if you said something they agreed with, I think you lost them.
Really, the high road is the only way.”
I have purposely stayed away for a while so that cooler heads might prevail. I don’t think I’m ready to bail just yet, but I will not resort to making personal attacks.
Thanks again
Blessings
Greg
Michael,
I hope that you don’t see this idea of “Just read your Bible” as what I have been trying to convey in my comments on this thread. Reading the Bible is definitely an indispensable part of spirtual formation, as is theological study, but neither of these disciplines is all that is needed, even for “Reformed” spiritual formation.
To be honest, I find it amazing that any serious, thinking, Reformational Protestant would be nervous at the suggestion of Scripture meditation *or* purposeful solitude as a spiritual discipline! I don’t know– maybe some evangelicals are just scared by some of the *terminology* of spiritual formation? Perhaps they don’t understand that when I speak of Scripture meditation, I am not referring to a Christianized form of Zen Buddhism? Maybe they are afraid of the mention of solitude because for them, it brings up thoughts of the most extreme, harsh forms of monasticism? I’m not sure. I just know that when I refer to spiritual reformation, I am thinking of it in my own life similarly to the way that Don Whitney lays out the spiritual disciplines in his book of the same name.
Just reading the Bible, just listening to more sermons, even just serving others sacrificially– as long as the “just” remains as a qualifier, none of these good actions (or any others) will likely bring about Christ-like character in us. What I mean is that the “just” qualifier often reduces Bible reading, or sermon listening, or serving others to a rote action with no passion or expectant enthusiasm. I never want to “just” read the Bible, or “just” study theology or (for that matter) “just” pray or fast or serve. I want to all of these things, but with a heart toward, and an expectancy of, heart and life transformation.
I do think the Puritans (more so the original English ones than the Americans) get a bad rap because of misunderstandings of their ideas of spiritual formation. As a previous commenter noted, at their best, the Puritans were spiritually holistic– very much interested in addressing the whole person, not just external behaviors. To my understanding, that is spiritual formation. John Owen’s The Mortification of Sin is a great example.
I want to *do* all of these things, that is… I’m sorry– it’s the English major in me!
(Everything must be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture.)
“Don’t leave us in the dark there, Greg. What exactly in this thread are you hearing that needs to be tested by scripture?”
Quite a bit actually but I don’t think you are interested in the specifics. Are you saying that all spiritual practices should not be tested and evaluated according to the standards given to us in Scripture?
“And at what church can this be dependably done?”
Are you looking for an address? It’s somewhat ironic that you are accusing me of is the exclusive purview of “the riches of the Catholic tradition,”
Protestants do not have a Pope to give them infallible interpretations of specific scriptures. Protestants count on the illumination of the Spirit using scripture to interpret scripture along with reason and a knowledge of history and have reached broad consensus on how one evaluates the fidelity of spiritual practice’s with scripture.
I can’t believe you would land in here with all this self-confidence and leave with the final answer under wraps.
And I can’t believe that you would so easily dismiss the sufficiency of scripture.
“And thanks for pointing out my bad habit of pointing out your obvious equation of three things in a sentence. If you are going to use big words we don’t use, at least explain them.”
Pass…
“And again, why after 56 comments did you conclude that the problem is we’re “lazy?”
Stop being so incredibly thin skinned and immature. It was a general statement about the general state of the evangelical Church.
Here it is in context:
(((people are used to fast food. They just want a Spiritual Happy Meal, and they want it NOW! This is why there is a continuous stream of novelty programs and a quick fix, three easy steps approach to Spirituality in the Evangelical Church. Besides the necessity of the Spirit’s illumination, It takes hard work to study the bible, reflect on it in prayer and live it out in community. People are just plain too lazy do it. They want a quicky lube program they can just show up for, completely unprepared, and come away from with an instant buzz.)))
Rather than having a spazz, tell me why you disagree with my statement.
“What clear commands of scripture did you hear avoided or neglected?”
Where did I say that?
“And if you are going to accuse me of not wanting an answer, where did you get that idea? Your commenting privilege is on the line here, so don’t let me down.”
What I said was; “In fact one gets the impression that you would be happy to find or have already decided that there is no answer. I hope that’s not true.”
It’s am impression not an accusation and I meant specifically no answer within the evangelical tradition. Your whole post is based on the supposed lack of answers in the Evangelical tradition as opposed to “the riches of the Catholic tradition,…. and how: “the greatest resources for the spiritual journey are on the other side of great denominational divide?”……
You go on to say:
“Is it inevitable, because of the Protestant spirit, that the person interested in spiritual growth must look to Catholicism for help?
Is this the fruit of the Reformation gospel’s emphasis on forensic justification and imputed righteousness? Is it Protestant to be “weak on sanctification?” Can the wholesale emphasis on evangelism have made us so spiritually shallow that the only thing we know to do is tell someone to “pray more and read the Bible?”.”
Lets see; you caricature Protestantism as shallow empty and weak because of i