Comments on: Open Thread Question: Church and Kingdom- What’s the Relationship? http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:30:54 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Steve Scott http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-241190 Steve Scott Mon, 19 May 2008 09:17:52 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-241190 The kingdom is everybody and everything that is under the kingship of Jesus. The church is the people of God assembled. Not the people of God in totality, but just when assembled. Church is the several hours we meet together during the week. Kingdom is the rest of the week, the rest of our lives. Jesus spoke very little about the church and a great deal about the kingdom. Maybe we should too. The kingdom is everybody and everything that is under the kingship of Jesus. The church is the people of God assembled. Not the people of God in totality, but just when assembled. Church is the several hours we meet together during the week. Kingdom is the rest of the week, the rest of our lives. Jesus spoke very little about the church and a great deal about the kingdom. Maybe we should too.

]]> By: Timothy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-241023 Timothy Sun, 18 May 2008 17:48:13 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-241023 Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this? With 2,000 years at its disposal, the Church has had time to refine its theology on your question. Paragraph 768 in Article 9 seems to answer your question: "Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom." <a href="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9.htm#p1" rel="nofollow">ARTICLE 9 - I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH</a> God bless... +Timothy Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this? With 2,000 years at its disposal, the Church has had time to refine its theology on your question. Paragraph 768 in Article 9 seems to answer your question:

“Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom.”

ARTICLE 9 – I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH

God bless…

+Timothy

]]> By: Adam http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-240861 Adam Sun, 18 May 2008 04:07:47 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-240861 Joel, I can see your distinction between king and kingdom, so I'll have to give on that one. From what I can see it doesn't appear much harm was done to my overall point, so I'll walk away with a "Phew" and a wipe from the brow. :) Adam Joel,

I can see your distinction between king and kingdom, so I’ll have to give on that one. From what I can see it doesn’t appear much harm was done to my overall point, so I’ll walk away with a “Phew” and a wipe from the brow. :)

Adam

]]> By: pjedmonton http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-240838 pjedmonton Sun, 18 May 2008 01:36:29 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-240838 Since the question was about the relationship between the VISIBLE Church and the Kingdom of God I'm afraid that the answer is a much smaller overlap than the one we all would like to see. Ideally we would expect the Church to be the realm where the King's rule in the lives of His people is already a reality. But things haven't changed that much since New Testament times from what I have seen and experienced, particularly in the affluent part of global Christianity - the greatest opposition to the Kingdom is still coming from WITHIN the established religious community and many who wouldn't even be considered part of that community have a better understanding and greater openness towards the kingdom message than the ones who are usually considered "in" rather than "out". Since the question was about the relationship between the VISIBLE Church and the Kingdom of God I’m afraid that the answer is a much smaller overlap than the one we all would like to see. Ideally we would expect the Church to be the realm where the King’s rule in the lives of His people is already a reality. But things haven’t changed that much since New Testament times from what I have seen and experienced, particularly in the affluent part of global Christianity – the greatest opposition to the Kingdom is still coming from WITHIN the established religious community and many who wouldn’t even be considered part of that community have a better understanding and greater openness towards the kingdom message than the ones who are usually considered “in” rather than “out”.

]]> By: Joel http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-240706 Joel Sat, 17 May 2008 16:19:06 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-240706 Adam, in your first post you said that Jesus was the king AND the kingdom. I think I would say that he is the King OF the kingdom and we have to define what the kingdom is. He did claim to be King (Mat. 21:5; Mat 27:11; Lk 23:2-3; etc.), but he never claimed to be the kingdom. My understanding is that the kingdom is a certain kind of rule of God- one that can come near you (Luk 10:9) or even upon you (Mat 12:28). It is the kind of rule that God exacts in heaven. This is why Jesus prays (and tells us to do so too) that God's "kingdom would come, and will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." When God's will is done on earth as it is done in heaven (immediately, apparently, obviously), it is evidence that his kingdom has/is come. The distinction between the (visible) church and the kingdom is that the church is the people of God, with a physical location(s) in space/time and the kingdom is not a physical place- it is a way that God manifests his rule, but usually not without using his people in some way or another. We shouldn't say that the church is the kingdom, but at the same time we also shouldn't say that there isn't a close relationship between the two. Jesus (the king) gave Peter (a member of the church?) the keys to the kingdom. I hope all that made sense. Adam, in your first post you said that Jesus was the king AND the kingdom. I think I would say that he is the King OF the kingdom and we have to define what the kingdom is. He did claim to be King (Mat. 21:5; Mat 27:11; Lk 23:2-3; etc.), but he never claimed to be the kingdom.

My understanding is that the kingdom is a certain kind of rule of God- one that can come near you (Luk 10:9) or even upon you (Mat 12:28). It is the kind of rule that God exacts in heaven. This is why Jesus prays (and tells us to do so too) that God’s “kingdom would come, and will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” When God’s will is done on earth as it is done in heaven (immediately, apparently, obviously), it is evidence that his kingdom has/is come.

The distinction between the (visible) church and the kingdom is that the church is the people of God, with a physical location(s) in space/time and the kingdom is not a physical place- it is a way that God manifests his rule, but usually not without using his people in some way or another. We shouldn’t say that the church is the kingdom, but at the same time we also shouldn’t say that there isn’t a close relationship between the two. Jesus (the king) gave Peter (a member of the church?) the keys to the kingdom.

I hope all that made sense.

]]> By: Adam http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-240272 Adam Fri, 16 May 2008 14:02:21 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-240272 Did it really seem like a leap? Where did the apostles gather? Around Christ, and on His last night with them He gave them the means by which they were to gather. "This is my body...This cup is the new covenant in my blood...Do this in remembrance of me." This seems to be the pattern followed by the first Christians as reference in Acts 2:42, which is why I made the allusion to "They devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." That reads like a Mass to me. Did it really seem like a leap?

Where did the apostles gather? Around Christ, and on His last night with them He gave them the means by which they were to gather. “This is my body…This cup is the new covenant in my blood…Do this in remembrance of me.” This seems to be the pattern followed by the first Christians as reference in Acts 2:42, which is why I made the allusion to “They devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.” That reads like a Mass to me.

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-240258 iMonk Fri, 16 May 2008 13:20:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-240258 Now how did we get from Mark 1:14 to the sacraments again? Now how did we get from Mark 1:14 to the sacraments again?

]]> By: Adam http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-240254 Adam Fri, 16 May 2008 13:03:40 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-240254 Mark gives some pretty good insight on this question: Mark 1:14...Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." The arrival of Jesus and the fulfillment of the Kingdom are no coincidence. Jesus is effectually saying "I am the Kingdom" and the church enters that kingdom through belief in the forgiveness of sins through His work for us. Just as important, the church is strengthened and encouraged by the King when we "devote [our]selves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers." We participate in the The Kingdom of God whenever we gather around Word and Sacrament, through which we receive Christ our King. Mark gives some pretty good insight on this question:

Mark 1:14…Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

The arrival of Jesus and the fulfillment of the Kingdom are no coincidence. Jesus is effectually saying “I am the Kingdom” and the church enters that kingdom through belief in the forgiveness of sins through His work for us. Just as important, the church is strengthened and encouraged by the King when we “devote [our]selves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” We participate in the The Kingdom of God whenever we gather around Word and Sacrament, through which we receive Christ our King.

]]> By: Joel http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-240172 Joel Fri, 16 May 2008 06:35:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-240172 The KoG is an important issue for me as well. This is not a reply about the relationship between the church and the kingdom, but when I wanted to see what piper said about it, I listened to all of his sermons on the kingdom and in one, he had a short 4-part definition, which you can see here http://joelpatrick.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/piper-on-the-kingdom-of-god/ The KoG is an important issue for me as well. This is not a reply about the relationship between the church and the kingdom, but when I wanted to see what piper said about it, I listened to all of his sermons on the kingdom and in one, he had a short 4-part definition, which you can see here http://joelpatrick.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/piper-on-the-kingdom-of-god/

]]> By: Steve Newell http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-thread-question-church-and-kingdom-whats-the-relationship/comment-page-1#comment-240113 Steve Newell Fri, 16 May 2008 02:11:02 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2070#comment-240113 The Kingdom of God is found on earth in the Church, both visible and invisible. It is wrong to separate the Church from the Kingdom of God. In Lutheran Theology, there is the concept of the two kingdoms. The first Kingdom is the Kingdom of the Church,which is the Kingdom of God. The second kingdom is the Kingdom of this world that we live in. God had dominion over both Kingdoms where in the Church we have the Gospel, the Forgiveness of Sin. In the other Kingdom, God rules through Law and reason. The Kingdom of God is found on earth in the Church, both visible and invisible. It is wrong to separate the Church from the Kingdom of God.

In Lutheran Theology, there is the concept of the two kingdoms. The first Kingdom is the Kingdom of the Church,which is the Kingdom of God. The second kingdom is the Kingdom of this world that we live in. God had dominion over both Kingdoms where in the Church we have the Gospel, the Forgiveness of Sin. In the other Kingdom, God rules through Law and reason.

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