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	<title>Comments on: Open Mic at the iMonk Cafe: The Ironies of Evangelicalism</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: alvin_tsf</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-474883</link>
		<dc:creator>alvin_tsf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-474883</guid>
		<description>i find it ironic that someone who has started a so called jesus shaped spirituality and has welcomed everyone from different traditions to engage in this journey consistently highlight the shortcomings of people who preach doctrines of grace...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i find it ironic that someone who has started a so called jesus shaped spirituality and has welcomed everyone from different traditions to engage in this journey consistently highlight the shortcomings of people who preach doctrines of grace&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-441956</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:26:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-441956</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Having grown up in one tradition and “moved” to the other, this is something I often think about. It’s an upside down world.&lt;/i&gt; -- Sharon

&quot;&#039;Cause it&#039;s a Great Big Stupid World...&quot;
-- Randy Stonehill (?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Having grown up in one tradition and “moved” to the other, this is something I often think about. It’s an upside down world.</i> &#8212; Sharon</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8216;Cause it&#8217;s a Great Big Stupid World&#8230;&#8221;<br />
&#8211; Randy Stonehill (?)</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-425366</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-425366</guid>
		<description>Jonathan
I totally agree with you. Having grown up in one tradition and &quot;moved&quot; to the other, this is something I often think about. It&#039;s an upside down world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan<br />
I totally agree with you. Having grown up in one tradition and &#8220;moved&#8221; to the other, this is something I often think about. It&#8217;s an upside down world.</p>
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		<title>By: JoanieD</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-424756</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanieD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 02:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-424756</guid>
		<description>Very good, thoughtful points, Jonathan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good, thoughtful points, Jonathan.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Hutton</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-424737</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Hutton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 02:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-424737</guid>
		<description>Sorry a bit late on this thread... but I just gotta add the irony of the works vs faith divide:

I grew up hearing stories of the scales used in the catholic church - if the good outweighed the bad they&#039;d make it to heaven. I was told that catholic&#039;s were legalistic and believe they get to heaven based on good works.

Catholics on the other hand grow up believing that evangelicals believe all you need to do is say a prayer. Once saved always saved. They think once we said that prayer we think we can live however we please and still get to heaven.

The irony is this:

In practice some are skeptical of how worldly  Catholic&#039;s often are, and no matter how sinful they seem to live they all get the ticket to heaven at the Catholic funerals.

In practice evangelicals are often the ones who seem very legalistic. Don’t smoke, drink, dance or chew, or go with those who do. And if someone does break these rules, yet said the prayer, we say they likely were not really saved before - maybe they said it but didn&#039;t mean it?

So in practice which (stereotyped) group seems to practice &quot;once saved always saved&quot;, and which group is legalistic and placing a larger emphasis on works?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry a bit late on this thread&#8230; but I just gotta add the irony of the works vs faith divide:</p>
<p>I grew up hearing stories of the scales used in the catholic church &#8211; if the good outweighed the bad they&#8217;d make it to heaven. I was told that catholic&#8217;s were legalistic and believe they get to heaven based on good works.</p>
<p>Catholics on the other hand grow up believing that evangelicals believe all you need to do is say a prayer. Once saved always saved. They think once we said that prayer we think we can live however we please and still get to heaven.</p>
<p>The irony is this:</p>
<p>In practice some are skeptical of how worldly  Catholic&#8217;s often are, and no matter how sinful they seem to live they all get the ticket to heaven at the Catholic funerals.</p>
<p>In practice evangelicals are often the ones who seem very legalistic. Don’t smoke, drink, dance or chew, or go with those who do. And if someone does break these rules, yet said the prayer, we say they likely were not really saved before &#8211; maybe they said it but didn&#8217;t mean it?</p>
<p>So in practice which (stereotyped) group seems to practice &#8220;once saved always saved&#8221;, and which group is legalistic and placing a larger emphasis on works?</p>
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		<title>By: Winter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-424257</link>
		<dc:creator>Winter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-424257</guid>
		<description>I find it ironic that people are so busy arguing whether God made the Earth in six literal 24-hour periods or not and whether or not gay marriage should be legal that they forget that Jesus simply said to love one another, help one another, heal one another, and believe in Him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it ironic that people are so busy arguing whether God made the Earth in six literal 24-hour periods or not and whether or not gay marriage should be legal that they forget that Jesus simply said to love one another, help one another, heal one another, and believe in Him.</p>
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		<title>By: Deborah</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-421474</link>
		<dc:creator>Deborah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 00:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-421474</guid>
		<description>I find it ironic that I can&#039;t think of a pulpit today that Spurgen would be allowed to fill because he enjoyed smoking his Cuban cigars....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it ironic that I can&#8217;t think of a pulpit today that Spurgen would be allowed to fill because he enjoyed smoking his Cuban cigars&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Trailblazer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-421134</link>
		<dc:creator>Trailblazer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-421134</guid>
		<description>The church which sent the Easter invitation is a Christian, non-denominational church. I doubt that there is a human being in the USA who doesn&#039;t know why Easter is celebrated. We can agree to disagree on this means of drawing people to church. We left a church, in the Calvary Chapel system, which started bringing in all types of entertainment to perform worship - including hip-hop and rap. I can hear the arguments roiling, just my point of view, respect here is key.

The Halloween party, called a Harvest party, was always held on Halloween, costumes and candy, and all the trappings of a pagan holiday. Thousands came to this event, how many came to Christ? This even overrode the Saturday night service, if Halloween fell on a Saturday. GIve me a break. 

It&#039;s little wonder that the teachings in many churches are long on social messages and short on truth. 

I go to church to hear the Word, to learn more and to partake in worship and fellowship without the disruptions of coffee breaks, comedy acts and people who feel the need to talk during the service.

Easter, for the church I mentioned, has become a festival of booths and Egg Hunts every half hour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The church which sent the Easter invitation is a Christian, non-denominational church. I doubt that there is a human being in the USA who doesn&#8217;t know why Easter is celebrated. We can agree to disagree on this means of drawing people to church. We left a church, in the Calvary Chapel system, which started bringing in all types of entertainment to perform worship &#8211; including hip-hop and rap. I can hear the arguments roiling, just my point of view, respect here is key.</p>
<p>The Halloween party, called a Harvest party, was always held on Halloween, costumes and candy, and all the trappings of a pagan holiday. Thousands came to this event, how many came to Christ? This even overrode the Saturday night service, if Halloween fell on a Saturday. GIve me a break. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s little wonder that the teachings in many churches are long on social messages and short on truth. </p>
<p>I go to church to hear the Word, to learn more and to partake in worship and fellowship without the disruptions of coffee breaks, comedy acts and people who feel the need to talk during the service.</p>
<p>Easter, for the church I mentioned, has become a festival of booths and Egg Hunts every half hour.</p>
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		<title>By: charlie.hr</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-421121</link>
		<dc:creator>charlie.hr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-421121</guid>
		<description>One more thougth...

Irony...

trying to reform something that it&#039;s wrong from its very core.

Peace and Love!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thougth&#8230;</p>
<p>Irony&#8230;</p>
<p>trying to reform something that it&#8217;s wrong from its very core.</p>
<p>Peace and Love!</p>
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		<title>By: charlie.hr</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-the-ironies-of-evangelicalism/comment-page-3#comment-421119</link>
		<dc:creator>charlie.hr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3006#comment-421119</guid>
		<description>Irony?... hhmmm let&#039;s see...

Have you ever heard say: &quot;Jesus is not religion, it&#039;s life (... relation or whatever the bumper sticker says)&quot;?

How many of us &quot;evangelical christians&quot; slap this words in the face of (mostly) catholic people and then preach them: If you want to become a REAL CHRISTIAN, you have to become... EVANGELICAL!!!? (Obviously we don&#039;t say it that way).

We rant about a void religious life and go trough the motions every single weekend without questioning our own religious practices, because we find them fulfilling. Then what&#039;s the difference with other religious practices that other people find fulfilling for them? 

I&#039;m no theology scholar, but it seems to me that Hebrews speaks of Christ replacing the religious order of communion with God (trough Sacrifices - read tithes and offerings - Temple and Priests) for another more natural and familiar trough Christ. He replaced the religious agenda with the original idea of communion set on the Garden of Eden. (What was Adams religion? anyone?

Am I wrong here? or we&#039;re missing the point? Jesus didn&#039;t come to replace old religions with a brand new one. He came to (in his own words): Set the captives free!!! (religious ones included). That&#039;s why I find pointless arguing of catholic vs. evangelicals, or them vs. us. Once you get rid of the religious agenda, you&#039;re set free to be a true witness of the gospel.

Wanna be counter-cultural? Fall passionately in love with God, know him and Go and live a &quot;normal&quot; life (eg.: do whatever you do for a living) and while you&#039;re at it, make disciples, cast out devils, heal the sick, plead the case of the widow and the poor; don&#039;t worry about being saved by grace or by works, just be a christian-less all the add-ons. I dare you to see the counter-cultural effects of that.

I know maybe this post will be misunderstood, or even criticized. I know we can keep arguing forever about the relevance of our religious liturgy and practices. But lets face it... Our Religion and denominationalism is one of the main things the hinders the church to witness to people like Bill Maher, muslims, far eastern religions, atheists, agnostics, etc. (John 17? anyone?). 

Let me be clear on this, I&#039;m no ecumenist... far from it! Forget all what you know and start over. Discover the bigger picture... It&#039;s about God, not about our religions. Jesus slammed the religious establishment of his days; Paul was unwilling to allow the corinthians jump into the denominationalism bandwagon; and here we are almost 2000 years later trying to make sense of all the religion-mess that we are in.

... have ears to hear?

Peace and Love!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Irony?&#8230; hhmmm let&#8217;s see&#8230;</p>
<p>Have you ever heard say: &#8220;Jesus is not religion, it&#8217;s life (&#8230; relation or whatever the bumper sticker says)&#8221;?</p>
<p>How many of us &#8220;evangelical christians&#8221; slap this words in the face of (mostly) catholic people and then preach them: If you want to become a REAL CHRISTIAN, you have to become&#8230; EVANGELICAL!!!? (Obviously we don&#8217;t say it that way).</p>
<p>We rant about a void religious life and go trough the motions every single weekend without questioning our own religious practices, because we find them fulfilling. Then what&#8217;s the difference with other religious practices that other people find fulfilling for them? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m no theology scholar, but it seems to me that Hebrews speaks of Christ replacing the religious order of communion with God (trough Sacrifices &#8211; read tithes and offerings &#8211; Temple and Priests) for another more natural and familiar trough Christ. He replaced the religious agenda with the original idea of communion set on the Garden of Eden. (What was Adams religion? anyone?</p>
<p>Am I wrong here? or we&#8217;re missing the point? Jesus didn&#8217;t come to replace old religions with a brand new one. He came to (in his own words): Set the captives free!!! (religious ones included). That&#8217;s why I find pointless arguing of catholic vs. evangelicals, or them vs. us. Once you get rid of the religious agenda, you&#8217;re set free to be a true witness of the gospel.</p>
<p>Wanna be counter-cultural? Fall passionately in love with God, know him and Go and live a &#8220;normal&#8221; life (eg.: do whatever you do for a living) and while you&#8217;re at it, make disciples, cast out devils, heal the sick, plead the case of the widow and the poor; don&#8217;t worry about being saved by grace or by works, just be a christian-less all the add-ons. I dare you to see the counter-cultural effects of that.</p>
<p>I know maybe this post will be misunderstood, or even criticized. I know we can keep arguing forever about the relevance of our religious liturgy and practices. But lets face it&#8230; Our Religion and denominationalism is one of the main things the hinders the church to witness to people like Bill Maher, muslims, far eastern religions, atheists, agnostics, etc. (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=John+17" class="bibleref" title="ESV John 17">John 17</a>? anyone?). </p>
<p>Let me be clear on this, I&#8217;m no ecumenist&#8230; far from it! Forget all what you know and start over. Discover the bigger picture&#8230; It&#8217;s about God, not about our religions. Jesus slammed the religious establishment of his days; Paul was unwilling to allow the corinthians jump into the denominationalism bandwagon; and here we are almost 2000 years later trying to make sense of all the religion-mess that we are in.</p>
<p>&#8230; have ears to hear?</p>
<p>Peace and Love!</p>
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