Comments on: Open Mic At The iMonk Cafe: Responding to the Whoppers http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:02:57 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-490383 Headless Unicorn Guy Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:40:21 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-490383 <I>I think conspiracy theories are a throw-back to gnosticism; it’s all about having a secret knowledge above and apart from anyone else. It makes one special, elevated above the ignorant, unwashed masses.</i> -- Dumb Ox As in "The Conspiracy Has Won, We're All Gonna Die, It's All Over But The Screaming, BUT I *KNOW* WHAT'S *REALLY* GOING ON (smug smug smug)"? Years ago, there was this underground-comic version of "The Three Little Pigs" by underground cartoonist Roberta Gregory. In it, the Third Little Pig is a Conspiracy Theorist, telling the two others about The Slaughterhouse We're All Going To and what will be done with them there in lip-smacking detail. He tells them this as they arrive at the meat-packing plant, go up the chutes, and under the slaughter knives. At no time does he suggest escape or evasion. At no time does he use this knowledge for anything. At the end, he's the last to go under the slaughter knives; his last words (to his dead companions) are "SEE? SEE? I WAS RIGHT!!!! SEE? SEE? SEE?" Ever since then, I have referred to this kind of Gnostic Conspiracy Theorist as "Roberta Gregory's Third Little Pig." I think conspiracy theories are a throw-back to gnosticism; it’s all about having a secret knowledge above and apart from anyone else. It makes one special, elevated above the ignorant, unwashed masses. — Dumb Ox

As in “The Conspiracy Has Won, We’re All Gonna Die, It’s All Over But The Screaming, BUT I *KNOW* WHAT’S *REALLY* GOING ON (smug smug smug)”?

Years ago, there was this underground-comic version of “The Three Little Pigs” by underground cartoonist Roberta Gregory. In it, the Third Little Pig is a Conspiracy Theorist, telling the two others about The Slaughterhouse We’re All Going To and what will be done with them there in lip-smacking detail. He tells them this as they arrive at the meat-packing plant, go up the chutes, and under the slaughter knives. At no time does he suggest escape or evasion. At no time does he use this knowledge for anything. At the end, he’s the last to go under the slaughter knives; his last words (to his dead companions) are “SEE? SEE? I WAS RIGHT!!!! SEE? SEE? SEE?”

Ever since then, I have referred to this kind of Gnostic Conspiracy Theorist as “Roberta Gregory’s Third Little Pig.”

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-490381 Headless Unicorn Guy Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:35:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-490381 <I>I think conspiracy theories are a throw-back to gnosticism; it’s all about having a secret knowledge above and apart from anyone else. It makes one special, elevated above the ignorant, unwashed masses.</i> -- Dumb Ox As in "The Conspiracy Has Won, We're All Gonna Die, It's All Over But The Screaming I think conspiracy theories are a throw-back to gnosticism; it’s all about having a secret knowledge above and apart from anyone else. It makes one special, elevated above the ignorant, unwashed masses. — Dumb Ox

As in “The Conspiracy Has Won, We’re All Gonna Die, It’s All Over But The Screaming

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-490379 Headless Unicorn Guy Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:31:21 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-490379 <i>I can’t think of better responses, especially when the error in question is Chuck Missler claiming that Mars passed so close to the Earth in OT times it showed up huge in the sky, many times bigger than the moon, and scared everybody to death.</i> -- BrianD WTF? This sounds like Velikovsky, except using Mars instead of Venus. Did somebody mistake Wylie's novel <i>When Worlds Collide</i> for fact? Or is this "Just like Velikovsky, except CHRISTIAN (TM)!"? (I leave alone the fact that if something like that ever happened, Mars's gravity would cause such disruption that at the very least Earth would lose its moon; at most, Earth would tidal-stress enough to cause another Deccan Traps-size eruption and accompanying mass extinction event. The only way to avoid this would be to block Earth from all the gravitational effects -- the "And Then A Miracle Happened" crowd can ring in with the proof texts now...) <i>But of course these people are the least likely to agree they have a problem. And suggesting in any way shape or form there might be an issue to be worked out, much less an illness tends to have very bad results. Been there. Done that. Have the shirt, hat, bag, and receipts.</i> -- Ky boy but now now And your Membership Card in the Vast Fill-in-the-Blank Conspiracy. "WE WON'T BE TAKEN IN! THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS!" I can’t think of better responses, especially when the error in question is Chuck Missler claiming that Mars passed so close to the Earth in OT times it showed up huge in the sky, many times bigger than the moon, and scared everybody to death. — BrianD

WTF?
This sounds like Velikovsky, except using Mars instead of Venus.
Did somebody mistake Wylie’s novel When Worlds Collide for fact?
Or is this “Just like Velikovsky, except CHRISTIAN (TM)!”?

(I leave alone the fact that if something like that ever happened, Mars’s gravity would cause such disruption that at the very least Earth would lose its moon; at most, Earth would tidal-stress enough to cause another Deccan Traps-size eruption and accompanying mass extinction event. The only way to avoid this would be to block Earth from all the gravitational effects — the “And Then A Miracle Happened” crowd can ring in with the proof texts now…)

But of course these people are the least likely to agree they have a problem. And suggesting in any way shape or form there might be an issue to be worked out, much less an illness tends to have very bad results. Been there. Done that. Have the shirt, hat, bag, and receipts. — Ky boy but now now

And your Membership Card in the Vast Fill-in-the-Blank Conspiracy.

“WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN! THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS!”

]]> By: Articles of Interest 6-27-09 | Onward, Forward, Toward... http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-490141 Articles of Interest 6-27-09 | Onward, Forward, Toward... Sun, 28 Jun 2009 21:05:23 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-490141 [...] Internet Monk – Open Mic At The iMonk Cafe: Responding to the Whoppers [...] [...] Internet Monk – Open Mic At The iMonk Cafe: Responding to the Whoppers [...]

]]> By: Storyteller http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-489731 Storyteller Sat, 27 Jun 2009 19:36:21 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-489731 Assuming that this person is not an escapee from a mental hospital, and is actually a somewhat rational person, I'd start with the very basic question concerning their acceptance of the bible as the inspired word of God. From there I would point out that there are many aspects of the world we live in that seek to get us off track and take our focus off of the work before us as servant leaders. Finally, I'd remind my friend what the bible says the earth will be like in the last days, full of confusion and chaos, and acknowledge my own belief that we have arrived at that point in history. I'd also remind my friend that God remains on the thrown and to "keep the faith" knowing we are to occupy until Christ returns - and that worrying about such things as prompted by all of these rumors does not serve the body of Christ. Assuming that this person is not an escapee from a mental hospital, and is actually a somewhat rational person, I’d start with the very basic question concerning their acceptance of the bible as the inspired word of God. From there I would point out that there are many aspects of the world we live in that seek to get us off track and take our focus off of the work before us as servant leaders. Finally, I’d remind my friend what the bible says the earth will be like in the last days, full of confusion and chaos, and acknowledge my own belief that we have arrived at that point in history. I’d also remind my friend that God remains on the thrown and to “keep the faith” knowing we are to occupy until Christ returns – and that worrying about such things as prompted by all of these rumors does not serve the body of Christ.

]]> By: Chris http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-488990 Chris Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:23:57 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-488990 People are welcome to have nutty beliefs, but what's the proper Christian response when they take actions that affect others? Case in point: The persistent myth (nee cult) that believes vaccines cause autism. No matter that there's no credible scientific evidence for it, and plenty that debunks the idea. So now we have a breakdown in herd immunity that is resulting in outbreaks of preventable diseases and death in people who are too young, have compromised immune systems, aren't vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine wasn't effective. Google "Jenny McCarthy Body Count" for details. What do you do when you love these people dearly as members of Christ's body, but do things that could result in serious harm to their children and the surrounding community? People are welcome to have nutty beliefs, but what’s the proper Christian response when they take actions that affect others?

Case in point: The persistent myth (nee cult) that believes vaccines cause autism. No matter that there’s no credible scientific evidence for it, and plenty that debunks the idea.

So now we have a breakdown in herd immunity that is resulting in outbreaks of preventable diseases and death in people who are too young, have compromised immune systems, aren’t vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine wasn’t effective. Google “Jenny McCarthy Body Count” for details.

What do you do when you love these people dearly as members of Christ’s body, but do things that could result in serious harm to their children and the surrounding community?

]]> By: BrianD http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-488987 BrianD Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:17:17 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-488987 Going back to the questions iMonk raised in the lead article of this thread: When a brother or sister starts talking about something totally off the wall, I: 1. may speak up and correct them with the truth 2. but will usually smile and say nothing I can't think of better responses, especially when the error in question is Chuck Missler claiming that Mars passed so close to the Earth in OT times it showed up huge in the sky, many times bigger than the moon, and scared everybody to death. Or for the typical WorldNet Daily article about Obama or the economy ;) Going back to the questions iMonk raised in the lead article of this thread:

When a brother or sister starts talking about something totally off the wall, I:

1. may speak up and correct them with the truth

2. but will usually smile and say nothing

I can’t think of better responses, especially when the error in question is Chuck Missler claiming that Mars passed so close to the Earth in OT times it showed up huge in the sky, many times bigger than the moon, and scared everybody to death. Or for the typical WorldNet Daily article about Obama or the economy ;)

]]> By: Ky boy but not now http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-488808 Ky boy but not now Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:02:46 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-488808 "To the one who posted about their friend having him/her meet them in the library and ended up asking “Do you think this place is bugged?” It is highly likely your friend is suffering from schizophrenia, paranoid type. It is not just highly likely, but rather 100% reality, that your friend needs to be properly evaluated by a psychiatrist." But of course these people are the least likely to agree they have a problem. And suggesting in any way shape or form there might be an issue to be worked out, much less an illness tends to have very bad results. Been there. Done that. Have the shirt, hat, bag, and receipts. “To the one who posted about their friend having him/her meet them in the library and ended up asking “Do you think this place is bugged?” It is highly likely your friend is suffering from schizophrenia, paranoid type. It is not just highly likely, but rather 100% reality, that your friend needs to be properly evaluated by a psychiatrist.”

But of course these people are the least likely to agree they have a problem. And suggesting in any way shape or form there might be an issue to be worked out, much less an illness tends to have very bad results. Been there. Done that. Have the shirt, hat, bag, and receipts.

]]> By: Richard http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-488674 Richard Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:39:07 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-488674 Clarification-- the above comment did not address the large group of "group thinkers" that are not mentally ill, but simply go along with whatever their pastor or parents or christian brothers and sisters say. This is especially harmful in small town, lesser educated areas. Many times, small-town church group think can create "extra-biblical principles and/or facts" and call them "biblical principle and or fact" with little or no resistance. I do believe that the poor and less educated parts of the world have a step up, not a handicap, compared to the "enlightened" world in many areas, but accepting the the realities of modern behavioral neuroscience/psychiatry (when science actually is correct, because science is highly fluid/debated/not always correct)is not one of small-town or developing world Christianity's fortes. They trump us bigtime in areas like "faith like a child," "keeping it simple," "life not being choked out by worry," etc. But the rejection of proven science and the prosperity gospel are two great examples of where developed-world christianity does have a mandate to educate the less-educated members of our Brotherhood/Sisterhood, that just cause it walk/talks/acts like a duck (a demon-possessed person), doesn't mean it's a duck. The "demon-possessed person" may simply need a pill or two. Clarification– the above comment did not address the large group of “group thinkers” that are not mentally ill, but simply go along with whatever their pastor or parents or christian brothers and sisters say. This is especially harmful in small town, lesser educated areas. Many times, small-town church group think can create “extra-biblical principles and/or facts” and call them “biblical principle and or fact” with little or no resistance. I do believe that the poor and less educated parts of the world have a step up, not a handicap, compared to the “enlightened” world in many areas, but accepting the the realities of modern behavioral neuroscience/psychiatry (when science actually is correct, because science is highly fluid/debated/not always correct)is not one of small-town or developing world Christianity’s fortes. They trump us bigtime in areas like “faith like a child,” “keeping it simple,” “life not being choked out by worry,” etc. But the rejection of proven science and the prosperity gospel are two great examples of where developed-world christianity does have a mandate to educate the less-educated members of our Brotherhood/Sisterhood, that just cause it walk/talks/acts like a duck (a demon-possessed person), doesn’t mean it’s a duck. The “demon-possessed person” may simply need a pill or two.

]]> By: Richard http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers/comment-page-3#comment-488660 Richard Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:24:33 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-responding-to-the-whoppers#comment-488660 I don't really know how many of our Christian brothers and sisters realize the facts of mental illness. Does anyone besides me think that most Christians would be shocked at the fact that 1% of human beings develop schizophrenia over their lifetime? 1 out of every 100. Experimental evidence has also shown that no religious group, agnostic group, atheistic group has more of a susceptibility to this disease. I was shocked by this as a second year medical student after growing up with an evangelical background. Yes, there are people who fall under criteria for "paranoid personality disorders" but never develop schizophrenia, but one in 100 people in any population do develop schizophrenia. Tomorrow I take my test for psychiatry-- which means I just finished a six week rotation in psychiatry. Let me tell you, I have found this difficult to deal with-- difficult to conceptualize. In the end I learned how to say, "I don't understand the spiritual interworkings of all this" a whole lot in medical school. I will say that I do believe in demon-possession, but I also believe that many schizophrenics are not demon-possessed. Many times it IS a biological illness. Anybody who refutes that would have to call me crazy, because I've seen so many people in the last six weeks go from floridly psychotic to very much normal without psychosis just by taking a few pills. I think this challenges us as believers to say "I don't know what demon-possession was/is" all the time. I went on a mission trip for six months to West Africa a few years back where surgeries were being performed on people who were already declared "demon-possessed" by those in their neighborhood. They came to a ship and received a simple surgery, went back to their communities and were "miraculously" healed according to all in their hood. Ridiculous. Charismatic Christianity, with all its merits, must be careful not to declare biological illness as spiritual illness, just as science should be careful not to declare all illness biological and unrelated to the spiritual. To the one who posted about their friend having him/her meet them in the library and ended up asking "Do you think this place is bugged?" It is highly likely your friend is suffering from schizophrenia, paranoid type. It is not just highly likely, but rather 100% reality, that your friend needs to be properly evaluated by a psychiatrist. Once again, more of these "certainties" that we hear about from our Christian brothers and sisters are the result of mental illness than meets the eye. Not saying its a result of christianity-- don't believe that-- but this type of illness cuts across faith lines, that's all I'm sayin. Any thoughts, please respond. I don’t really know how many of our Christian brothers and sisters realize the facts of mental illness. Does anyone besides me think that most Christians would be shocked at the fact that 1% of human beings develop schizophrenia over their lifetime? 1 out of every 100. Experimental evidence has also shown that no religious group, agnostic group, atheistic group has more of a susceptibility to this disease. I was shocked by this as a second year medical student after growing up with an evangelical background. Yes, there are people who fall under criteria for “paranoid personality disorders” but never develop schizophrenia, but one in 100 people in any population do develop schizophrenia. Tomorrow I take my test for psychiatry– which means I just finished a six week rotation in psychiatry. Let me tell you, I have found this difficult to deal with– difficult to conceptualize. In the end I learned how to say, “I don’t understand the spiritual interworkings of all this” a whole lot in medical school. I will say that I do believe in demon-possession, but I also believe that many schizophrenics are not demon-possessed. Many times it IS a biological illness. Anybody who refutes that would have to call me crazy, because I’ve seen so many people in the last six weeks go from floridly psychotic to very much normal without psychosis just by taking a few pills. I think this challenges us as believers to say “I don’t know what demon-possession was/is” all the time. I went on a mission trip for six months to West Africa a few years back where surgeries were being performed on people who were already declared “demon-possessed” by those in their neighborhood. They came to a ship and received a simple surgery, went back to their communities and were “miraculously” healed according to all in their hood. Ridiculous. Charismatic Christianity, with all its merits, must be careful not to declare biological illness as spiritual illness, just as science should be careful not to declare all illness biological and unrelated to the spiritual.

To the one who posted about their friend having him/her meet them in the library and ended up asking “Do you think this place is bugged?” It is highly likely your friend is suffering from schizophrenia, paranoid type. It is not just highly likely, but rather 100% reality, that your friend needs to be properly evaluated by a psychiatrist. Once again, more of these “certainties” that we hear about from our Christian brothers and sisters are the result of mental illness than meets the eye. Not saying its a result of christianity– don’t believe that– but this type of illness cuts across faith lines, that’s all I’m sayin. Any thoughts, please respond.

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