UPDATE II: And now the announcement is that this thread means I believe all theology is equally true. See, I 1) shouldn’t be letting you people tell your stories at all. It’s rejoicing in sin. 2) I should be preaching to all of you because right belief is the answer to everything. 3) and then I should be rejoicing that you all never return to this site again. But at least I witnessed to you.
God forbid that we act like people actually matter. Lord, save us from having to listen to someone’s pain. Just SHUT UP and SHOW ME YOUR CONFESSION. Right?
I’m looking for stories; stories of how relationships were changed for the worse because of theology.
I want commenters to tell- briefly- their stories of how theology caused stress, conflict, change, separation and distance in relationships with spouses, family members, parents, friends, co-workers and/or fellow Christians.
I’m not interested in changes from Christian to atheist, etc. Or in announcing you were gay. I want to know how someone becoming Calvinist changed your relationship. How did someone’s charismatic practices cause rejection? How did your family change their treatment of you when you left the Baptist denomination and became Orthodox? How does a creationist treat a Christian co-worker who is an evolutionist? How did your move to or from Catholicism affect your marriage? Are there people who stopped speaking to you or started evangelizing you when you changed your theology or practice?
That’s the sort of stories I’m looking for. With 40% of Americans changing religions and many moving to and from various theological positions, there’s bound to be a lot of these. Share them. Briefly. In the comments.
Raised Catholic but never met Jesus until after out of my parents’ house. They don’t understand my faith in Jesus because I’m, well, not quiet about it. Not that I’m ultra-politically active or anything like that.
Most recently have attended an evangelical (started late 19th century) church. Went to a men’s retreat (non-denominational, paraministry event) and learned about conversing with God and about the realities of spiritual warfare (not that there’s a foul spirit under every rock) and the role of the Holy Spirit, my mind, my heart, my flesh, God and angels in the Kingdom.
I listen to iMonk, Rob Bell, Greg Boyd, Erwin McManus, and Steve Brown. The pastor-friend I have that is still at the church we left refers to me as his “true blue post-modern friend”. He’s still in the evangelical paradigm and not really in a position to influence much change as his paycheck depends on his numbers.
But I enjoy our “friendship” – I don’t use the term as loosely as most – and see it as an opportunity to engage him in some conversation of sorts. With my new understand and deepening relationship with Christ on the journey I am on, I have few friends left.
Well, a number of formally warm relationships have cooled a bit since I moved from an SBC church that I had been attending for 17 years to an ELCA church at the first of this year. A story for another time…
There are three theological topics that have caused damaged or broken relationships in my life:
1) KJV Onlyism – I learned long ago — having attended Pensacola Christian School, a staunch KJV-Only institution — that debating with a KJV-Only advocate is the epitome of a Sisyphan task. I stay out of those conversations. My mother-in-law, bless her heart, wouldn’t let me stay out of one a few years ago when we were visiting at my wife’s aunt’s house. I was calm and tried to gently instruct; some on the other side got pretty emotional. I extracted myself from the debate as tactfully as possible, but the damage was done. I haven’t been welcomed as warmly in that house since.
2) Eschatology – Back in the mid-90′s, I was asked to substitute teach in my Sunday School class. I taught on the four major views on the millennium, giving the strengths and weaknesses of each view. Keep in mind that _Tribulation Force_, the second book in the _Left Behind_ series had just been released, as was the big topic of conversation at my church. After covering amillennialism in class, I allowed that it was the view I held. You ever seen a video of a school of piranha attacking a cow? It was something like that. Some members of the class were much cooler toward me after that. Even today when I share that I’m an Amillennialist, the first question I’m often asked it, “Don’t you believe the Bible?”
3) Evolution – The topic that’s caused me the most heartache. At PCS I was taught young-earth creationism, and I held that view until my early twenties. After much study of science and scripture, I found the evidence for Evolution to be overwhelming and not contrary to scripture. Further, deponent sayeth not.
I’ve learned to avoid bringing up the topic, but when it’s brought up, I will share my opinion. I can count on the fact that, when I share that I accept evolution, the very next words I’ll hear are, “Are you _sure_ you’re saved?” I was teaching a DT class on Revelation, and someone in the class opined that he didn’t see how anyone could accept evolution, and that only atheists believed in evolution. I replied that Christians hold differing views on the topic, from YEC to theistic evolution, and that I happened to be in the latter group. I then moved the discussion back to the proper topic for the class. Monday morning I got a call from the Associate Pastor wanting to set up a meeting. Seems a number of people from the class called him and complained about what I said. Next week, half of the usual attendees showed up for the class, and those absent never returned. Two people from that class wouldn’t meet my gaze in the hallways at church or speak to me after that.
I wasn’t going to enter this discussion but when KBryan mentioned the reaction to his Amillenial viewpoint being harshly received, I sure could relate. This is a bit of ancient history but in my senior year in Southwest Baptist College, in the Eschatology class I was the lone Amillenialist in a large room full of Premillilenialists of many differant stripes. Each Eschatological point of view had one person to present that viewpoint to the class. Being the lone Amil, I was by default the guy to present that case. I was jeered, hooted at, laughed at, mocked and generally insulted. This also included the Prof. I have to tell you that after that I just had no sense of belonging to the same anything as those other 30-40 student.
I finally after many many years looked up the old Prof (now at a Seminary and retired) and emailed him and told him what I thought. I am glad I did. Yes, he remembered it too. I forgive him but he showed his real self on that day and I did not like what I saw. Still don’t. Still don’t care much for the students I shared the class with. This was in 77. The rawness is still there.
I’m sorry for your pain. It sounds like an extremely difficult situation to be in. Continue to hold your convictions but not as tightly as you hold your relationships.
I am currently involved in a church plant where there is a great diversity of theological views. However, most of the community believes in YEC, Dispensational Eschatology (Premillenialism), and although most aren’t KJV only, NRSV & TNIV are shunned.
I have yet to run into any serious problems (the pastor disagrees while accepting me). Yet there is often a bit of tension when I am pressed about my views. Reading the TNIV/NRSV while believing in Theistic Evolution and Partial-Preterism is not favored by the majority.
High school girlfriend was a Baptist who started crying one day because she thought I was going to hell, and then we’d be apart forever.
wow, do you think a raw nerve was touched here? Thanks Michael & all you imonkaterians for the cool community of believers. My wife grew up Catholic and walked away from it when she left home. I grew up in a marginally religious family, new england congregationalists. ( family sidenote : my fathers great uncle was Harry Emerson Fosdick, a giant on the faith landscape in the early-mid 1900′s, author of many books, and despised as a heretic by the fundamentalists of the time. He doesn’t read so heretical to me, though) My wife and I accepted Christ together kneeling at our couch with a very kind and wise old preacher from Maine. After 20 years in the faith, I was called into inner city ministry with the encouragement of my wife, starting a new work in the drug infested ghetto ( yeah, just picture a middle age white guy in an all black neighborhood trying to love people like Jesus did. ) It was awesome and really hard, but I finally found my passion. My wife drifted away from the ministry very quickly, even though she is more gifted than me. After six years in this ministry she was influenced by some women into Messianic Judaism, which is cool except that she became legalistic, and judgmental towards me. I was wrong to eat bacon, didn’t use the right names for God or Jesus, didn’t follow Torah right….We are now separated, hanging on by a thread. I quit the ministry, but still live here, they sell dope right behind my house. I still love God, read the word, am isolated from most people but trying to get healed up. I read Imonk.
“imonkaterians”
Cute, Jeff!
I was traveling in India and came home to find girlfriend had aligned herself with a house-church community where the elders were responsible shepherds to help the members of their house find God’s will in everything from jobs, to use of money, to relationships. I was shocked and it threw us apart. Finally she left that group and we were back together but she was always bitter that our relationship made her leave a faith community that meant so much to her.
I left Roman Catholocism in college; I was already in the process when I met my husband-to-be, a non-sacramental evangelical. Telling my parents I could not in good conscience get married RC was one of the worst days of my life. At first my mother insisted that, since I wouldn’t be married in the Catholic church, I should get married by a justice of the peace. Thankfully, my parents worked through their disappointment, and our relationship bounced back and remained good until they died. They could see that I was trying to follow God, while my younger sister became a non-practicing Catholic.
My husband and I were NSEs all our married life. We have never really discussed theology in 32 years of marriage… I moved to a conservative PCUSA church 9 years ago during a stretch when he had to work Sundays. That church was too “liturgical” for him, and since the church hired a female pastor he has not even been in the building. He told me I was a blasphemer because I believed women could serve in any area. He regretted using the term once he realized it was not what he meant. But I clearly “did not believe the bible” anymore.
My husband began to attend an SBC church plant once he wasn’t working on Sundays. I visited a couple of times, but I was already in the process of re-evaluating everything but the Trinity and Jesus as the Second Person thereof, and I had passed the place where the Evangelical train reached the end of its tracks… It seemed so alien to me, although I’m very happy he found a place that makes sense and meaning for him. I have since gone on to become Orthodox. It’s been quite a blow for him; I’ve suggested your blog, imonk, as someone who is working through a similar situation, but he’s not interested- nothing personal… We’ve discussed it a little; he thinks I have found something similar to the “religion” of my childhood and I’ve done a sort of sentimental return to following a “system”, where the men wear dresses
I can’t feel insulted- I’m so deeply grounded and happy. It’s been good in that most of the time we’re being careful about intentionally showing love to one another, and at the same time it’s a real strain. Thank God all this happened after our children grew up and left home.
Dana
My dad became a Catholic Mariology/Fatima/Faustina/miracle-nerd a couple of years ago, and its been pretty stressful for the rest of us who suddenly aren’t Catholic enough: i.e., we don’t think that Muslims are evil, don’t at this stage of life feel any particular inclination to go to Mass every morning, and don’t care to write checks towards anybody and everybody flying the chi ro on their mast.
I have a very good friend that insists on “winning” almost all theological discussions we enter into. It seems to me that every discussion is a debate. A debate must have somebody prevailing and it can’t be me. If he senses the discussion is not going his way he becomes angry and condescending- at which point I refuse to continue the discussion. I just drop it. Which really makes him more angry.
I find the best solution is to just try to avoid religious or theological discourse entirely. We go to same church- non-denominational evangelical. Our ideas are not very different.
I value our friendship above any theological differences.
I grew up in the Southern Baptist denomination. “Went forward” at a young age and was baptized. (Didn’t want to go to Hell!) Thought as I grew older that I had my “fire insurance”. Fell away in a huge way. Started going to Calvary Chapel. Thought I really understood things (spiritually) now. Went forward again. Baptized again. (This time it must be for real!) Fell away again. Way away! Came back to Calvary. Wondered if I should be baptized again. Pastor said not necessary. Been on antidepressants since I was 18. Calvary pastor told me there was no such thing as a chemical inbalance in the brain. Said if I continued to take my meds that I was no different than an alcoholic or “pothead”. Stopped meds, had to be hospitalized. Pastor told my husband to go get me out of the satanic psych hospital. Fulfilled pastor’s prophecy (sarcasm alert) and became alcoholic/pill-popper. Came back this time to a non-denominational church. Became very involved (worship) for nearly 10 years. Left church after becoming Calvinist. Tried to fit in somewhere. Never could. (Couldn’t measure up.) My husband is so miserable spiritually. (me too, I guess) Says he feels like he’s in no man’s land. We don’t know what we believe past Jesus is the only way. I’m 53 and exhausted. Very discouraged.
“We don’t know what w believe past Jesus is the only way.”
…add to that “and he really, truly, deeply, passionately loves me very very much,” and keep fighting. Your story inspires me.
Jo Ann,
Here’s a HUG for you. I just wish that I could do more.
When I married my wonderful bride, we were both relatively young and committed to Restoration Movement principles (credo-baptism only saves, communion every week, etc…) About four years ago I started asking lots of question that weren’t being answered by anyone in my church, or the evangelical movement as a whole, and decided to explore. The long and short is that I made a two-year pit-stop into high Church Lutheranism (LCMS), but eventually landed in the Orthodox Church. I’m here to stay.
Unfortunately for both of us, my wife has not shared my enthusiasm and it grinds on us daily. Here’s a laundry list of theological issues we struggle with:
1). The Liturgy. For an evangelical, this may not look like theology, but for Orthodox Christians one cannot separate worship from theology. We don’t view worship as a style, but as a timeless continuity with the Church of all ages. Our forms and practices are designed to keep us connected to that Church, while also fostering a sense of spirituality that is humble, Trinitarian centered, and introspective. My wife does not understand the liturgy, and isn’t sure why we can’t be a bit more modern. I can’t understand why anyone would prefer to innovate rather than participate in forms of worship that share a relationship with the early Church.
2). Infant baptism. When we were married, I was absolutely certain that infant baptism was an early innovation that had absolutely no Biblical support. Suffice it to say, I now reject the believers-only baptism model and see infant baptism implied all over the place in the Scriptures and Church history. My wife is willing to hear me out on this one, but she cried the night before my youngest son’s baptism just three weeks after his birth. She isn’t completely against it, but she still has difficulty seeing it when “there aren’t any examples of babies being baptized in the Bible.”
3). Sola Scriptura. I used to be a “chapter and verse” guy, but now almost all my references are marked by observations from Church Fathers. My wife gets this, but her paradigm is still largely shaped by a POV in which Scripture is read apart from any historical context. So, while she can in theory understand how it is helpful to read the Church Fathers, the conclusions that she often reaches are still firmly grounded in a solo/nuda Scriptura perspective.
4). Icons. This isn’t as much an issue as it used to be, but she is still embarrassed by my icon corner and would recoil in horror to see it in a central part of the house. She does understand the reasoning. I think she’d just be mortified to have a Protestant friend over.
5). Estrangement from Protestant Friends. We tried doing the “we’re still friends even though we’re different” thing with Protestant friends and it just didn’t work. We are friends, but we really don’t have much in common in our spirituality. I positively loathe praise and worship and they think liturgy is dead and boring. I quote Chrysostom and they talk about Beth Moore and Rick Warren. It’s just not the same.
I’m sure there’s more, but that’s what most stands out. In all, I am very blessed to have a wife who, while not entirely understanding the “hows” and “whys,” hasn’t put up a massive road block on everything. I’ve had the sense that she is slowly moving toward Orthodoxy, but it is very, very slow. I have learned to just shut up and let the Holy Spirit work. I tend to make a mess of things and she seems to embrace Orthodoxy a lot more when I don’t talk.
Great post, you are walking out a tough path, I’m praying for you. I’m still learning the “shut up” rule myself.
Greg R
Wow. I’m a Lutheran with close friends who are Catholic, Orthodox, evangelical protestant (SBC, then Evangelical Free). I’m stunned. Perhaps having had Catholic ancestors and an Orthodox cousin helped me, but I find myself relating to any of my friends with a true faith in Christ, and the differences have never caused friction. I respect their traditions, and we rarely debate the fine points, which may help. I even stifle myself when my Orthodox friend talks about the importance of a church being “canonical”, except for a one-time observation about the head of the Russian church.
I hope a lot of people who believe right theology is the answer are reading this discussion.
Email this to a few key theologizers on the net. It’s the dose of reality they’ve needed.
troublemaker.
Michael, I’ve hesitated to post on this thread since I don’t really know if my experience is really “on topic” or not. But I’ve decided to go ahead and comment for what it’s worth.
My whole life has been shaped by pluralism. My mother’s family, for instance, was raised Baptist, but none of the children remained that. One brother married a presbyterian woman and became presbyterian. Another married a Louisiana Catholic and became Roman Catholic. My mother? Let’s just say she explored many things, Christian (and a huge variety within this category) and not (also fairly broadly) before ending up a very serious and devout Roman Catholic fairly late in life. I have one cousin who married into a Jewish family and is at least participating in raising their children Jewish. (I don’t know if he actually converted or not.) Before a tragic story that I’m not going to go into, my brother and his then wife were on the cover of the SBC’s Home Life magazine some years ago. That’s immediate family just on my mother’s side. My father’s side of the family is no less complex.
Me? Growing up, I experimented with everything my mother did and more beside (especially of the non-Christian variety) until I was a teen. (I skipped out on the charismatic house church she led for some months when I was a teenager.) As a teen I actually tried to connect in a mountain SBC church until being a teen father and refusing to hide my daughter from sight got me kicked out. From the pulpit. I pretty much gave up on Christianity after that and focused on non-Christian spiritualities and religions. For a pretty long time. I won’t go into my first two marriages. Neither lasted and the second almost destroyed me. “Theology” or even religion was the least of my concerns.
When I married my current wife, she was a lapsed Roman Catholic and I was pretty adamantly not just non-Christian, but anti-Christian, though I hid that from her parents and the Lutheran pastor who married us. (In all honesty, that pastor was a huge contributing factor in my eventual reevaluation of Christianity, though I doubt he ever knew it.) Her parents were less than thrilled at my wife marrying a non-Catholic, though I think her mother warmed to me before she passed away. I know, after nearly two decades, her father has.
My friends are all over the religious map. Currently my two closest friends are an SBC minister and a “spiritual” atheist. (That’s his description of his perspective on life. Take it as you will.) My children? Quite a bit of variation there as well.
I recount all that to say that I’ve spent my entire life from my youngest years maintaining relationships in spite of spiritual, theological, and religious differences. It sometimes takes more work. You don’t get to assume much. And sometimes you offend when you didn’t mean to. If the person matters to you, you work through it.
It’s as simple and as difficult as that.
I’ve been blessed a LOT of times by reading to the iMonk; and I did this for almost a year without posting any comments, until one day a decided to participate in a post about the evangelical collapse. Suddenly, out of the blue I was banned because I suggested that I don’t believe in the trinitarian formula that we inherited from the “church fathers”.
I’ve been a christian since I was kid (raised in a christian family), I’ve learned theology since my teens and can recite it by heart, and not just one denominations but from a lot of other traditions; ’cause I believe that if we want to be able to have meaningful relationships with other christian brothers you have to be able to not upset them with stuff they don’t believe. (Romans 14)
I’ve seen how trinitarians are so proud about “being so certain” about God’s nature and how harsh and offensive they become with those of whom that feel that the trinitarian formula is a stretch from what is revealed in the Bible. But it seems to them that this part of theology had been settled long ago and that any one trying to understand it in a different way is an heretic. (or un-orthodox). I always asked my self: since when the agreement in the Nicean creed became the word of God? ’cause the way trinitarians defend their position until this very day is like they were defending the Bible (inerrant and infallible).
I’m not saying Jesus is not the Son of God, or that he is not God himself, but I don’t feel comfortable with the trinitarian formula.
My point is that Jesus said that we will know who are from him BY TEHIR FRUITS (not their theology)… Paul said that the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, PATIENCE, etc…
I’ve not yet met a trinitarian that exhibits the fruit of the Spirit any time that someone even remotely implies that the trinitarian formula may not be as biblical as one can wish.
Please don’t ban me again!
Peace and Love.
In some christian circles they’re willing to welcome an atheist but not even consider speaking with a non-trinitarian.
The reasons for banning are in the FAQ, rule 10.
It has nothing to do with what you believe, and everything to do with whether your comment is appropriate for the post or appropriately presented. You failed in one or the other.
I make it clear that if the comment is consistently inappropriate, then it’s going to be deleted. A non-Trinitarian insisting they are an orthodox Christian is in exactly that position. Your position has been historically condemned and would prevent you from joining every Christian denomination I know except one.
It’s your decisiion, like our Mormon friends, to ignore history and orthodoxy and blame other Christians for not being generous. I’d appreciate it if you’d be realistic: non-trinitarianism puts you in the camp with Mormons and JW, not Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants.
This isn’t my fault. It’s your choice.
Umm… What I’m getting from Charlie is more of a “I don’t know” vibe. He says in his first post that he’s not saying he doesn’t believe Jesus isn’t the son of God or even that he’s denying his divinity – which the JW’s most emphatically do.
Thanks…
It’s a blessing someone is listening!!!
BTW I’m not a Mormon nor JW nor a Oneness Pentecostal, but I’m not worried about not being a Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. Labels are the very thing that have hurt me and a lot of people in the body of Christ. No wonder Paul asked the church in Corinth to stop the labeling thing.
God bless you Matilda.
I have a certain amount of respect for people who are willing to say, “I don’t know.”
I totally understand your point, and I appreciate your response. But please kindly consider my point. If there are some people out there that don’t fit some theological views, don’t discard them as unfit for the love and grace of God that covers a multitude of shortcomings and CAN be manifested thru meaningful relationships between christians.
I’m not insisting I’m orthodox, ’cause clearly I’m not… from an historical point of view… but I believe that that doesn’t make me a non-christian. I’m not worried about not being of a particular denomination, actually I’ve managed to be part of an SBC church for almost all my life, but as you adequately put, things are changing in the evangelical landscape, and that’s why I decided to abandon my evangelical denomination and seek for brothers and sisters that insist in the LOVE of GOD and not theology as a means of real communion and relationships.
As for me, I understand that I have to keep my beliefs and arguments for myself if I join a discussion in your blog. Don’t want to upset anyone. I’m sorry if my comment was not appropriate.
Peace and Love
It’s not a matter “inappropriate beliefs.” Do I ban atheists? Of course not.
But if we are having a discussion of baseball, and someone who believes there should be 4 strikes instead of 3 enters the discussion, the odds of moderation increase to the extent they press their point.
The most common moderation at this blog are people who say “this discussion shouldn’t be happening.” I deleted a friend’s comment saying that yesterday. Not a matter of beliefs. I’m moderating a discussion here.
Again, if I am having a discussion on “Evangelicals and sacraments,” and you show up with “there are no evangelicals” or “there are no sacraments,” it’s not a matter of beliefs, but a matter of how you conduct yourself in the discussion that will prevail. Is the leash shorter? Sure. But you’re still welcome.
Don’t worry… I totally get it.
Thanks for not banning me, I appreciate that.
Peace.
I was married and divorced before I became a believer (she was an unbeliever, too… she left me) and my first church believed there was no divorce for any reason (and if a divorce occurred, the two would actually still be married in God’s eyes), and no remarriage for any reason, supposedly biblical. I later changed my view (which included my personal case) and my friends said they would not even attend any wedding of mine, as to do so would be to give approval to adultery, which of course no Christian could do.
Later on, I dated a Christian girl, and her parents (who held the same beliefs) banned me from their home when they found out about my previous divorce. But this actually led to the parents studying the issue out with their pastors, and they changed their views. We didn’t marry, but for other reasons.
It’s so ironic that I was just thinking today I must be the only one facing serious issues because of theology. It’s good to know that I’m not alone. Many of these stories have encouraged me.
I come from a non-Christian upbringing up until I was around 13 when I started going to an Assembly of God Church. I’ve been going there because it just seemed so right and for a few years it was (I’m in college now by the way). Anyway it all began to change (about 3 years ago) when I realized that the answers that the denomination had told me for many things about God, the Bible, hermeneutics, eschatology, soteriology, etc. didn’t work for me after I had read the Bible through a couple of times. I just couldn’t find where they were getting some of the stuff taught and preached. I began to realize that God is bigger than one denomination and the past century of the church. I gained an interest in early Christianity, the church fathers, the desert fathers on into people like St. Francis of Assisi, Thomas a Kempis, Martin Luther (he wasn’t like the guy I had always thought he was; he’s much better) and finally catching up with us in the 21st cent. Rob Bell, N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight. When reading in these many different areas, I felt as if I had always had the big picture deliberately hid from me. I still go for the most part to this same church and I am sometimes shunned because for one thing I don’t have it out for Obama, am not in any sense a prosperity gospel or word of faith kind of guy, and am just tired of everything in the Bible being super spiritualized when it is talked about or preached.
The next problem is that my fiancee’s mom who used to think the world of me when I was a good little Charismatic boy now doesn’t quite so. My fiancee is okay with my dissonance to a point (she honestly couldn’t care less about theology). She wouldn’t change a thing about me because she loves me for a who I am but I can’t say the same for her mother. Her mom and aunt actually have prayer meetings together for me because ‘the spirit of this world has blinded me so much’ because I don’t hate the President (here you either love him or hate him, no in between), I’m in between amillennialism and historic premillennialism leaning much more towards the former, and basically because I don’t enjoy the church I attend which they started attending around 3 years ago when and where I first met my fiancee. She always has Beth Moore, Joyce Meyers, Perry Stone, Paula White, Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jentezen Franklin (whom I till recently liked), and many more on the t.v. or their book in hand. It drives me nuts how she always super-analyzes every situation as a demonic force behind it and we need to just tell the devil that we won’t be sick or he won’t take our blessings away!!!!! I’m just glad that I’m moving far away from her very soon. I’ll soon transfer colleges to become a missionary. I’m very much a missional guy and I kind of got that from my own studies (aside from what God put within me to be) than from my Christian background and from the people she would have me listen to.
I can’t wait for the first time she hears me preach. That will surely be interesting. From my opening quote from the Confessions to my realistic, down to earth reading of the Scriptures, to my finishing where we all partake in Eucharist and wonder how we are Christ’s body and how he asks us to be broken for humanity today. Not our entitlement to health, wealth and much more in this life but a promise of life in a new world where God has put everything back together.
Shalom
I forgot to add that a pastor was saying tonight how some people have blinders in their eyes and they can’t see the truth and how God wants to set us free of that spiritual blindness. He asked us to pray for someone in our own life who needs that. We all bow ours heads and begin to pray (in mild Pentecostal form). My fiancee’s mom happens to be sitting right behind us and while I’m praying I feel a hand set onto my shoulders. I stopped for a second and thought to myself ‘you’ve got to be kidding me’ but sure enough it was her.
If I had to call myself something, I’d say an Emergent-Orthodox-Pentecostal. Pentecostal in prayer, Emergent in my more missional focus and somewhat post-modern way of thinking and Orthodox in my best efforts at practicing the Orthodox faith/tradition passed down through the centuries. Some might call me an OXYMORON, but that’s my life.
“I can’t wait for the first time she hears me preach”
Oh dear, you sound like me 20 years ago.
I would wait as long as possible.
I was just being facetious about the matter I just pray that the Holy Spirit leads us both to a mutual understanding of each other’s differences
Jonathan, you said “I felt as if I had always had the big picture deliberately hid from me. ”
I felt exactly the same way when I stumbled accross the depth of Christian literature that I never knew existed. For many years, I imagined the likes of Meyer to be the depth. Fortunately those days are gone, this morning I the pleasure of trying to wrap my mind around LeRon Shultz whilst on the underground! What a fantastic way to pass the time commuting,
I became a Calvinist 5 years ago at 19, jumped full into the classic militant phase, and promptly made at least one friend cry. thru the years alienated plenty of people because I was RIGHT. a year ago this was revealed to me as idolatry.
word thing I ever saw…pentacostal holiness preacher came to campus to preach the gospel. after calling every sorority girl a whore, every guy in a pink shirt a faggot, and every masturbator hopelessly hellbound, he told an openly lost spectator that his dad was in hell because he committed suicide. the guy wept, and then slapped him, thank god.
Wow !!
The campus preacher you describe brings “Bro.” Jed to mind.
Or Bro Jed’s got a LOT of imitators out there.
(I first heard of Bro Jed secondhand from someone at Cal State Fullerton in the Eighties. I’m surprised he didn’t get punched out on a regular basis. However, getting punched out would just feed his Certainty that He Is God’s Anointed by claiming Persecution.)
*pentEcostal
Hi MIchael, long time reader but first time I’ve commented.
I married into a very tight brethren group, (not Exclusives or Londoners). This was somewhat of a shock, particularly the dispensational side of things. However, I settled down and we had children. My husband then came into contact with some fairly extreme pentecostal friends and his thinking swung violently in the opposite direction to what he had been brought up in.
I had been looking for a way out and we both left after being told we were going to Satan. I don’t like labels but could probably accept charismatic Anglican, still fairly evangelical, but I’ve moved “up the candle” as the saying goes.
He has continued to move further to extreme health and wealth stuff, hearing God audibly every morning at 3:00 am. It is then that he supposedly hears the most way out ideas that he believes God told him. He will influence all nations, will control multi-billion budget, eliminate poverty and hunger worldwide etc.
However, God also happened to tell him that when we were young, he (husband) did not know how to hear God at all. Consequently, I was not the one whom he was supposed to marry. God apparently did not regard us as married so husband could do as he liked and he did. Many times. Eventually God told him to tell me to get out. I asked what he had been doing to have children etc. Living in sin as the old saying goes? I was just told that while my logic sounded right, he believed all this rubbish. I pointed out verses and themes etc, to no avail.
We are now separated and divorce proceedings are happening. He doesn’t see why this has to happen, because he believes God has broken us up. He can’t see need to the state to have any role. He’s now apparently moved on into even whackier ideas and the church he attends has grown weirder as i hear on the grapevine from time to time.
Me? I’m enjoying fairly high Anglican liturgy with bells and smells, totally different to the small church I grew up in and am enjoying reading the patristic writings. He’s told me that God has told him I’m on the road to hell.
I had grown up in evangelical churches but had never been to a pentecostal church till i got to college. They were different in that they would often talk about hearing from God and God telling them to do this or that. I wanted to hear from God too so I prayed alot and spent more time reading the bible and was very active in the felloship. I started hearing from God alot; which was exciting at first but eventually it got excessive and I wished that he would give me some peace. I didn’t want to hear those voices in my head any more.
Looking back, I think the pentecostal church was not the best choice for me. THerapist told me recently I have OCD, and I think my obsessiveness combined with my newfound ability to achieve spiritual ecstasy was not a good mix. I think it caused me to hear things in my head that weren’t from God but were my own imaginings. I made some very silly and regretable decisions based on these imaginings. Since then, the idea of God talking to me makes me feel queasy.
I was born and raised Catholic. My family then left Catholicism for Evangelicalism when I was 10. When I was 35 I reverted to Catholicism. The initial shock of my becoming Catholic was intense. I was told that I was spiritually abusing my children, joining an apostate church, that bad things would begin happening to me as I would fall under God’s discipline, etc.
This was all terribly disheartening as I believed the Catholic Church was where I needed to be to follow Christ. And the joy (fullness) I felt at being a new Catholic naturally lead to my wanting my family and friends to convert – and too much zeal. This zeal had its own set of problems. My family felt assaulted, I imagine, to some degree. Then I heard an Orthodox convert relate some advice his spiritual director had given him on his conversion: Be silent about your faith for three years. I’ve tried following this advice; I am learning to be quiet. Three years is not enough for me, because I still do not love well enough (probably never will – I love better with my mouth shut). In my silence I’ve found that friends and family still loved us dearly, but often felt/feel awkward and even condemned by my conversion and conversation. They felt I’d removed myself from their spiritual intimacy, while I, all along, felt as if they had removed themselves from my spiritual intimacy.
God is love. I believe his grace is given to me in a special way in the sacraments of the Catholic Church, but his grace is not bound by them. He loved me as an Evangelical (and as a Fundamentalist, as a Dispensationalist, as a YECer) just as he loves me as a Catholic. I will always be learning this.
Scott,
I can relate to your story. About three years ago I experienced a strong reversion to Catholicism. I was a nominal Catholic who converted from Presbyterian in my early 20s. I’m afraid I wasn’t catechised properly – or maybe I was just too dense to understand what Catholicism was all about.
At any rate, once I fell truly in love with the Catholic Church, the sacraments, etc., and was so eager to share with everyone, especially my parents who are strong Presbyterians. In my enthusiasm, I was in danger of alienating my family. I quickly learned that I needed to keep my mouth shut and let God’s grace change ME so that any testimony to my faith should come from living my life in Christ.
This isn’t to say that I am not prepared to make a defense of my faith. But I’m mindful more and more that I must do so with “gentleness and respect” always (1 Peter 3:15) and in humility considering others as better than myself. (Philippians 2:3).
Your point about God’s grace not being bound by sacraments is so true. I have to remind myself that God loves my family and friends more than I ever will, and my job is simply to live as God has called me to.
Hello Scott:
I understand your story very much. Zeal at conversion can give rise to some very difficult scenarios and in my case, I made so many ridiculous mistakes and offenses, I blush to think of them even after many years. I would not want my own children to have the same sort of experience at least in part because many of my blunders were never ultimately reconciled.
The spiritual director you mentioned is wise. His advice is analagous to the spirit of Deut 24:5, I think.
Having said that, conversion is a real thing but the paradigm is negotiable, so to speak. In my context back then, the authenticity of one’s conversion was measured by the extent to which a person ‘witnessed’ to their family (and also total strangers) – why this may result in the perception (or reality) of condemnation of a family’s pre-existing Christian tradition was never explained. A lot of damage can be done by inadequate pastoralia in this regard especially among young people whose critical faculties are far from formed and who have an inherent need to feel accepted without the ability to think through a whole lot. But then, personal rejection was a mark of authenticity too!! It might never occur to a very young convert that the reactions they were getting from others were nothing more than the result of plain stupidity – I think this would apply to me.
Your post brought to mind a number of things I have tried to embody in my life and ministry subsequently. Might I respectfully offer a few things:
Young believers must be mentored (young in years or young in faith).
Mentors must be exceptionally mature Christians with broad and patient sympathies.
Recent or immature believers should not be given jobs that place them in sensitive situations where the public ministry of the church is represented.
Recent believers should be given the simple opportunity to actually learn the faith and begin to act out what they really are – disciples.
Thanks again for your post.
Absolutely, for some reason I do have that problem as well. I don’t know how many more Catholics have the same problem but it is essential that we always remember that it is we who are bound to the Sacraments but not God. 1 Peter 3:15 Must always be in mind.
Giovanni,
My priest – one of our catechists – stressed that exact message to us in that exact phraseology. “We are bound by the sacraments, but God is not.”
One of the concerns some of my family and friends expressed during my conversion was the belief they presumed in Catholicism that the Catholic Church is the only portal to Christ. At the time, I didn’t have a good answer to them, but now I’m glad to be able to tell them this Catholic view of ourselves and our relationship with God and with other Christians.
I was consistently held at arm’s length in the MOPS group I was part of for a year and a half. See, I’m Lutheran. It was clear I had to “prove” by my “fruits” that I was Really Saved despite my “dead” church membership and lack of a clear decision for Jesus.
Eventually, one of the women told me that I was different from all other Lutherans – that I had studied and “figured things out” and she was sure that I was saved, despite being, you know, Lutheran. But then, of course, the question hanging in the air is why, if I was Really Trully Saved, would I *stay* in a dead church? ::rolls eyes::
I ended up leaving that MOPS group when it became clear that the “devotions” were nothing more than those stupid forwarded inspirational emails read aloud to the group, but that’s another story. Had the women been less stand-offish, I might have stayed despite the dorky devotions, just for the social aspect and for the chance to get out of the house.
I don’t treat other Christians as provisional Christians, even if there’s great theological differences between us. God does the saving; who am I to be final arbiter?
That’s really a bummer your MOPs group was like that. I coordinate a MOPs group at an evangelical church and I’m Orthodox. Talk about awkward! (It’s the church I grew up in, so they know me and trust me – and they can. I’m not out to convert everybody, although I will answer questions when asked.) And my devotionals tend to quote St. John Chrysostom, Mother Teresa, or reference traditional hymns. I’m kindof a “full meal deal!” LOL!
However, we have had women in the past who belonged to other denominations and I could tell they felt uncomfortable (I wasn’t the coordinator back then). I don’t think anyone ever said anything bad to them, but I think their way of talking about their spirituality (I think particularly of one woman who’s Catholic) was just so different that it was a divide that could not be bridged. Which is always too bad, because we have so much we can learn from each other.
I was an OP pasor for a number of years. Slowly changed my views on the ministry of the Holy Spirit and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Basically I guess I was becoming what today is called a “Reformed Charismatic”, but this was in the mid-80′s so I didn’t know what I was. I kept these views to myself, didn’t want to divide the church, while I knew my time in the denomination was probably drawing to a close. One Sunday, while preaching through a Psalm that had much instruction about praising God in worship, I ended the sermon and introduced the closing song with the suggestion that if anyone wanted to raise their hands, (as mentioned in the Psalm) while we sang, to do so. I did and a few others did. As I stood by the door shaking everyone’s hand while they left, an elder’s wife came by and instead of extending her hand looked at me and said, “you are repulsive, and what you did is repulsive to me”. I said, thanks……. and you have a great day. Later this woman wrote a letter to the presbytery asking that charges of “heterodoxy” be brought against me. ronh
I was the member of a Southern Baptist church through high school and into college that styled itself after Willow Creek / Saddleback. I owe a lot to the church, particular to the youth minister and the adult volunteers who gave their time and money to afford us the opportunity to study our Bibles and forge friendships that last today despite distance and circumstance. However, during my first couple of years of college, I was introduced to reformed theology through our college ministry leader and I was surprised. I was surprised that no one had ever mentioned this before. I was surprised that I’d only ever heard a caricature of “unloving predestination” before. Furthermore, I was attending Bible college through a local seminary, and I became aware of the rich history of the Christian church and couldn’t believe I never knew this stuff. I didn’t fault my church, per se, because I was the product of many churches. Still, this was the church where I’d been 5 years, and I’d never been in any place so long before. I may have been in some very theologically minded, intentionally instructional churches before and never known about it. ; )
Anyways, as I grew and learned, I loved it. At the same time, I saw more starkly the strong anti-theological and educational bias of the pastor. He would caricature theological training as pointless and frivolous in sermons and in such a way convince the congregation that that’s exactly what it was. I had a close friend ask me at one point if I really was learning anything useful at all. At a Bible college. At a seminary. With godly men devoted to teaching the Scriptures and the history of our denomination, theology, and faith. Yikes! I was indeed learning, and I was making an honest attempt to be patient and never make my grievance about any particular point of theology (though obviously my new reformed-informed doctrine of salvation was at odds with the mega-church revivalistic style doctrine I was regularly encountered with). At one point, our church hosted new seminary students for a brunch and meet-and-greet, and the pastor again insulted their pursuit of a theological education from such a place. I also found myself increasingly alienated from ministry leaders I was involved with when I questioned things like wasteful spending on technological doodads and/or a new skate park behind the church as an effective way to minister to our community.
In one very painful moment, the legitimacy of my faith was called into question, as I “seemed to always question the things God was doing.” In this particular moment, I was presumed to have convinced one of the high schoolers he wasn’t in fact converted a second time, even though I hadn’t spoken to him. I cleared up the situation but never had reconciliation. There were more and more situations where I, granting my own imperfections and inability to deal with this situation “to the letter of correctness,” was ostracized to the point where I found my college minister (who had since been removed from the church) and asked him what to do. I didn’t want to abandon my friends or the members who had loved me through my early college years. I still had close friends that I loved and couldn’t stand to leave behind (remember, I was always moving around as a child). But at the same time, I wasn’t being ministered the gospel. And I mean the pervasive, build your life on this, it’s “what-we’re-all-about” gospel. I was encouraged at that time to find a church that regularly preached the gospel for the strengthening of my faith and ministry. And so I did, and I’ve found new freedom from sin, more intentional community, and a new depth to the Scriptures I didn’t know existed.
I’m still in regular contact with my friends. The pastor has since gone due to circumstances revolving around ethical issues. The youth pastor who cared for me through high school has returned and is leading the group back toward personal discipleship. And my friends have searched out good teaching and fellowship on their own, so that we’re practically eye-to-eye. And honestly, the folks that I was having such a hard time with are no longer around. The church has gone through a lot, and I still pray for it and its leaders. But the break I had with them was so painful, and the fellowship I experience now is so… not, that I can’t ever imagine leaving where I am to rejoin my friends (as much as I sometimes wish I could).
My split here wasn’t over Calvinism ruining my relationship. It was me being shown there’s more to Christianity than moralism, that the theology of the reformation is rich, biblical, and worth studying. It was over an overtly antagonistic position toward theological education, even as the theology preached from the pulpit was at times incomprehensible. It was over sin, by me or against me, that wasn’t dealt with with repentance and forgiveness (maybe an issue in practical theology?). It was the result of alienation and misunderstanding, and it might have just been that I was taking a first step away from the Majority Evangelicalism and wished it was a step I was taking with the church instead of from it. However, with a CEO -> Board style ministry leadership, this was not to be. I’ve found an imperfect, gospel cenetered church I call home, and it’s the only reason I still live where I live.
My dad ascribes to what some term an “Identity Theology” which centers around the belief that Anglo-Saxon people are the “true” Lost Tribes of Israel, and that Jews are really fakers, possibly begotten by Satan himself through Cain. (This theology also overlaps with various and sundry conspiracy theories). After reading the entire New Testament and Romans in particular at the age of 18, I had my eyes opened to the sickness and evil (not to mention downright inaccuracies) of his racist belief system. It’s been a wedge between us ever since, as my refusal to agree with him is interpreted by him as disrespect. It’s one thing to disagree with loved ones on “nonessentials”; it’s another to have a loved one believe (and live out) something this wacko and sick in the name of Jesus.
My husband and I were baby Christians when we left the United Methodist church. We didn’t know what our theology was but knew that we believed that we should baptize our babies and that the Bible was the word of God (not just stories told to explain the author’s environment as our pastor believed). Finding an Evangelical church that baptized infants proved difficult but we finally found a Lutheran church that believed the Bible was the word of God.
We were pretty happy for a couple months until I heard what the church believed during their Confirmation ceremony one Sunday morning. I knew that I didn’t agree with their view of infant baptism but by then we were members of the church and my husband didn’t want to leave (it was really traumatic for him leaving the Methodist church since we were members there and then leaving the Lutheran church soon after joining proved to be too much for him. I used to tease him that his Catholic roots were showing
Eventually, I realized I was Reformed and given the ability to teach the Bible (as was my husband). Over the years I mostly taught women who didn’t attend my church, I lead an outreach Bible study. But then I taught a class on Romans and opened it up to women at my church. One of the ladies didn’t like what I had to say, even though it was shared theology between Lutherans and Presbyterians, so she went to the pastor and complained. I explained to my pastor that she had problems with Lutheran theology but he said I shouldn’t teach Reformed theology at a Lutheran church and this message was reiterated to my husband by an elder of the church. I promised that I would state what I was teaching was my opinion and would also teach the party line but they felt that wouldn’t work because I was in a position that would influence women to accept my opinion. (BTW, I completely agree with what my pastor and elder did, I have no problem with them protecting their flock from what they considered bad theology).
This provided the push my husband needed to get us out of the church and into a Presbyterian church where I can just point to the Confessions when anyone gives me grief about what I’m teaching. I’ve never been happier but regret that we had to leave our church family over doctrine. I still miss them but I’m so glad I can teach the word of God (as I view it) and not have to edit it to please men (Galatians 1:10).
I am trying to figure out how to feel after reading many of these comments. If the 4 basic feelings are mad, sad, glad, and afraid/fear, I’d elimate glad and keep the other 3. I’m sad about all the pain, much of it needless in my opinion, mad because of some of the “garbage,” in my opinion again, cited, and really afraid in ways that much of this continues in so many places. I am glad that God still works, Jesus saves, and the Holy Spirit transforms lives in spite of all this “stuff” happening. As I’ve noted here before, some humility would help in many of these “unhealthy” situations. “Lord, have mercy!”
So many of these comments make me sad and angry that I feel I should share my favorite story of theological differences.
A good friend of mine that I hadn’t had many real theological discussions with shared that he he was a pretty hard core Calvinist (obviously I am not). I shared that I could not agree with predestination. He said that I was obviously predestined not to believe in predestination and as a Calvinist he would just have to accept that. We laughed.
It’s become my standard answer anytime I’m asked my views on the subject. I enjoy the self-contradiction.
I was raised in an ultra-conservative IFB home – I wore long dresses, a head covering, no rock music, KJV-only, Quiverfull, etc. I was probably more devoted to legalism than even my parents, but as I entered adulthood I began to see how much of what I believed wasn’t in Scripture, my faith in Christ became real instead of works-based, and my theology changed from legalistic IFB to living, balanced charismatic. I thought that since I was an adult, my changes in theology were my own – not at all a form of “rebellion”, that it would be okay. Boy, was I wrong! I went through two very difficult years before being permitted to move away from my parents’ home (not allowed for adult women in the movement we were in), and subsequently with that, my mother left legalism as well, and I’ve had the joy of seeing some of my siblings find good, biblical churches where they can find Christ. My father and I will probably never agree on theology – he still holds to the “old ways”, but I have a great relationship with my parents today.
It was painful…but oh so worth it.
Ironically, every one of these conflicts has at its root the Bible and a person’s / church’s / denomination’s understanding of it.
How does the Word of God produce such fruits? Acting through fallen humanity, of course, but what drives these different actions and behaviors and emotions? Sin? The Holy Spirit?
I must be lucky. Most of my family, friends, and acquaintances aren’t quick to pass harsh judgments on differing opinions, even if they differ greatly from theirs. Don’t get me wrong, there have been some debates (even heated one) on occasion, but I don’t think I’ve ever had a relationship-changer.
I’m pretty sure my bro-in-law is a YEC — and he knows I’m not. My good friend is a Calvinist, and I’m very much not, and we both respect each other.
Now, where there has ever been conflict, it’s generally been more with church leadership — and it had more to do with my intolerance than theirs. But even that was more actions and methodology than theology.
I was raised in mainline Protestant churches by a mother raised in one of those denominations and a father who was a lapsed Catholic. In 7th grade, I was sent to Catholic school for the superior education and the moral foundation. In college, I was lost without the cocoon of a spiritually based environment and found friends who shared my values among the evangelicals on campus. I was never comfortable, however, with the worship or with all of the theology. This came to a head when I taught in a Christian school that was dominated by Charismatics and theologies like the prosperity gospel. When I got a job in a Catholic high school, it was like coming home. In April, I finally was baptized and confirmed Catholic and in June, I married a Catholic.
My conversion was accepted with great joy by my father who grew up in an Irish Catholic family, and my mother knows it is the right spiritual home for me. But some of my old friends from that evangelical world have been very difficult. The woman who was the maid of honor at my wedding seemed accepting of everything at first. She worked with me at the Christian school. But shortly after the wedding, we had lunch and she said something about me “already being saved” so being Catholic was okay for me, just a matter of “worship style”. Then she said something about me having “theological differences” with the Church. I explained that it is not about “worship style” and that I do not have theological differences with my Church and that I don’t really buy into the whole sinner’s prayer-get saved theology either.
I haven’t heard from her since.
sounds like you hurt her feelings
in a nutshell: i became a christian in college, started attending a church where people just loved me and let me be human and broken and normal, found a beautiful community of faith. a year later i decided i was a calvinist, started reading toooo much and decided that this church was too “emergent” or something, so i eventually phased myself out shortly before i graduated and moved away.
i am still friends with many of the people there, even though we don’t see each other except for 1 or 2 times a year.
once i moved, my husband and i picked a church because we “liked the theology.” it was reformed, etc. we still attend.
but in my heart if hearts i desperately miss that first church, even if i disagreed with the finer points of their theology and methodology of “doing church” simply because i had friends, i was learning how to live with and love other people, learning how to let myself accept grace and love from others. and, mostly, i just loved jesus there. in a really simple, not complicated way. i want so much just to sing and worshio my savior without picking apart the lyrics of every worship song and deconstructing everything and seeing it it matches up with what i have decided is “good” theology.
at our current church, we have excellent theology and my soul is dying. or so it feels. i don’t have that same sense of community or experience of the body of Christ there. and i can’t help feeling like maybe i made a mistake — theology isn’t the answer. i miss loving people and loving Jesus.
i don’t know if any of this made any sense. it’s hard to type and nurse a baby at the same time….
My story is different (haven’t posted it yet but I might) but I wanted to say that I empathize with the emotions in your post, alissa. I have most recently been part of a Calvinist community where people are very nice, very devoted to their theology but dare I say….they are a bit “cold”. I long to have friends and people who care about me and I care about them. So I just wanted to acknowledge your feelings… I get it…. even the nursing baby while typing thing
thanks alissa.
at our current church, we have excellent theology and my soul is dying. or so it feels. i don’t have that same sense of community or experience of the body of Christ there. and i can’t help feeling like maybe i made a mistake — theology isn’t the answer. i miss loving people and loving Jesus.
Alissa: thanks for the post, the paragraph above haunts me; I hope GOD’s comfort finds you and gives you life. Thanks for the honesty, I think you speak for many (unfortunately). There ARE oasis in the ev. wilderness, may GOD direct you there.
Greg R
I grew up with and am currently surrounded by Arminians. Through a lot of study and prayer, I’ve come to the conclusion that I definately fall on the Calvinist side of the theological spectrum and adhere to complementariansim. I certainly don’t feel as if either of those are hills to die on and yet all my friends and family want to pick fights and debate with me.
When my wife and I dated and married, she was and is a low-church Anglican who would just as well be Baptist if they gave her wine and let her kneel. My family was not religious although my four grandparents were Catholic and I slowly converted over many years, although I did try to satisfy myself at a Baptist church and then an Anglican parish… No luck. I miss some aspects of those congregations, mostly the people, but I have not regretted converting.
The topic of religion can be touchy with my wife. She both admires, scorns and ridicules Catholicism. For instance, when we bathe our newborn, she might suggest with a big sarcastic grin that I anoint the baby’s head with oil, to which I happily comply, which says a lot about both of us.
She cannot talk about Confession and holy water without laughing. And did I mention a fondness for Pope jokes? I’d say we get by with a mixture of silence, humour, compromise and meekness.
It seems to work out better if I tell her plainly what I will and won’t do, and what I need to do to satisfy my conscience. For instance, I will financially support a Protestant missionary (and pray for them) but I wouldn’t go on a short-term Protestant mission or teach Sunday school. We also belong to a Protestant small “couples” group, which I have no problem with. Likewise, I am obligated to go to Mass every Sunday, so alternating Sundays just does not work for me. Likewise, she has no problem with infant baptism, Catholic education, coming to Mass occasionally, etc… Lots of thorny issues, lots of give-and-take, but we have managed to resolve many of them. It’s actually pretty peaceful right now.
Very interesting comments.
My parents raised me Catholic and I still practice my faith. That said, I no longer believe in homeschooling, blind obedience to parents (even from married adult children), geocentrism, young earth Creationism, Latin-Mass only rhetoric, homebirthing, conspiracy theories, or that Fatima or Medjugorje or some other private revelation trumps Scripture. Honestly, it feels like I’m not a member of their religion and they sometimes treat me as someone who has rejected the known truth. Needless to say, our relationship is fairly strained.
Sounds like you grew up in the Catholic version of the aberrant family-compound, lkke the bordeline “Christian Taliban” cults Christian Monist and Adventures in Mercy describe, except with Tridentine Latin Mass instead of Kynge Jaymes 1611 Only.
My experience with the RCC is just the opposite; much of what you describe is what I swam the Tiber to escape. (Though one of my mentors in Catholicism DID get a little flaky, it never got that extreme.)
Stupid Catholic Tricks. A subset of Stupid Christian Tricks, which is itself a subset of Stupid People Tricks.
I don’t think any of the things you mentioned are articles of Faith. Also I did not know Fatima tried to trump Scripture.
Things don’t have to be articles of faith to be hurtful to others. Perhaps Fatima does not trump Scripture, but it can be elevated to Scripture’s level of authority and used as a litmus test for other Catholics’ loyalty or orthodoxy. There’s a big difference between doubting the miracle of the multiplication of loaves and the miracle of the sun at Fatima…
It happens on the opposite end of the spectrum, too. Some folks who were formed in the 60′s and 70′s really sour towards you when they find out you are not quite so eager for “Spirit of Vatican II”-style renewal, even if you have no association with traditionalists.
Also I did not know Fatima tried to trump Scripture.
It shouldn’t; private revelations do not supersede General Revelation, and (if authenticated) are binding only on those receiving the private revelation. That is the official policy.
However, there are a LOT of “The REAL Third Secret of Fatima” fanboys out there. It’s one of the Catholic versions of Christian Conspiracy Theories, and shows lots of the dynamics of Conspiracy Theory obsession in general. Which is in itself the essence of Gnosticism — “The Secret Knowledge I And Only I Possess.”
Evangelicals flake out with End Time Prophecy, Catholics flake out with “Mary Channeling”.
Another one. My mother-in-law was, for a time, concerned that I wasn’t ‘saved’ because I did not subscribe to a Left Behind-style eschatology. I haven’t dared broach my concerns with 6-day literal creationism yet. She also felt that friendships with non-believers should be cut off if they did not convert to Christianity in a ‘reasonable’ amount of time (a matter of months, usually).
I haven’t dared broach my concerns with 6-day literal creationism yet.
Better not, Anon. Usually “Left Behind-style eschatology” is hard-linked to “6-day literal creationism” like conjoined twins. Even the guy that wrote Scandal of the Evangelical Mind pointed that out.
She also felt that friendships with non-believers should be cut off if they did not convert to Christianity in a ‘reasonable’ amount of time (a matter of months, usually).
Which means there’s a good chance she’ll write you off as a (literally) Lost Cause in the future. Of course, being a mother-in-law, she might then decide to Save her Son from your heathen clutches and sabotage your marriage.
My wife and I have really worked hard on this relationship (with her mother); we want it to grow, not diminish, and that means working through the uncomfortable stuff. If she feels as strongly on these issues as she did, she is not as vocal about it anymore.
I was part of a Christian community for nearly 20 yrs. My role was a counselor/advisor/consultant and on several leadership teams. I began to raise concerns about embracing the mega-church/corporate model of “doing church” as they say, and found myself on the outside looking in. My concerns were not so much anti all of CEO-church but its ways and means in light of they way of Jesus. My encouragement was in giving staff (individually and corporately) more time for prayer, fellowship and worship together and in personal devotions during their day which was seen as becoming “Quaker” of all things.Part of this journey was a loss of reputation and identity that was not grounded in christlike humility and therefore profitable for me, tho painful. The end result however, was the loss of my friendships and place of ministry as I became a stranger in my own community.
I’ve stopped identifying myself as Catholic in women’s Bible studies because it makes others uncomfortable, especially newcomers.
And so, therefore, when I’m not invited to happenings outside Bible study, I know it’s because of me and not my religion.
I grew up in an unchurched family, but came to Christ in an SBC church at a young age. Just having faith put me at odds with some of my family.
In college I became good friends with about a dozen people at our BSU who migrated to what would now be considered a Soverign Grace mindset. I stuck with the SBC, and now in their minds I am the enemy. Theologically speaking our differences are not huge, but my desire to stay in the SBC “brand” has created an atmosphere of derision, mockery, and contempt. To the extent that I have a difficult time being around these people who I once considered my closest friends.
Being a Driscoll sympathizing Calvinist in the SBC, I’ve gotten my fair share of dirty looks. But the SBC has been much kinder to me than others.
Two experiences with a friend, lets call him J.
J is a Calvinist, but I met him at a Vineyardesque charasmatic church. No reason for him to assume that anyone attending that church would be a Calvinist. We both share a love for the outdoors and so a friendship began. Now I, as it happens was raised (as American say) in South Africa, and am old enough to remember that the apartheid state was a self proclaimed Calvinist state. Now of course that doesn’t make Calvinist guilty of apartheid, but one could also understand why I might not automatically assume that Calvinism is automatically and unquestionably more “biblical”. But that is exactly what I did, argue by assumption that Calvinism has superior claim of fidelity to scripture. This created a great deal of tension in our relationship because I expect any such claim to have an actual basis. (I have actually looked into the claims of Calvinism on my own and find them unconvincing, however the relationship issue was the assumption that Calvinism has some kind of claim to being automatically or demonstratively more biblical rather than being one position which sincere Christians might hold.)
J was also a strong believer in complementarianism, but we didn’t argue about this issue, instead it framed his entire world view in a way which caused conflict. My wife and I had moved to a strange city so that we could serve a missionary organisation. My wife worked full time for the missionary organisation, while I looked after a guest house for the missionary organisation. I was waiting on God to find out what He wanted me to do with my life. I am an A type person and it was really hard for me not to have a clear direction.
When I was at my most down J told me it was because I was “following my wife” (who earned more at that point). At that point I realised that my marriage was the greatest gift from God in my life, told J he had forfeited the right to speak into my life and that I no longer trusted him. From being close friends we became acquaintances.
When we were married, we were attending an Assemblies of God church. It’s a long story, but the brunt of it happened during the “Brownsville Revival.” We went to speak privately with our pastor with open Bibles on our laps, and he actually told us to close our Bibles because “the spirit is doing a new thing.”
I was on staff at church. My husband led worship and toured in a Christian rock band. Both of us worked with teen programs in the church. I had to quit my job. We gave up youth group and I resigned from teaching my beloved Sunday school class (jr. high kids). Eventually, we had the courage to leave. People treated us like back-sliders…refused to be our friends any more. The teens were lied to and told we had moved to another city. My husband’s band broke up — the bass player was our A/G pastor’s son and there was that whole unequally yoked thing.
We floundered for six years, trying to find a church. Visiting place after place. Almost joined the Missouri Synod Lutheran church. They wanted to hire my husband as youth director…until somebody found out that I used to be on staff at the A/G church. We were placed on chairs against a wall while six people (including the assistant pastor) fired question after question at me about speaking in tongues. In the end, I thought we had explained ourselves well enough that five people had the confidence in my husband’s ability to lead the youth program. The hold-out was the assistant pastor. That was the end of that job.
For a while, we were in a “refugee church.” Everybody there had escaped from one denomination or another. The pastor and his wife were ex-SBC. The deacon was ex-ELCA. I get the names all mixed up now, but I think the church was initially Evangelical Anglican…then that denomination split and our group went with the Episcopal Evangelicals…another split, and we were Anglican Evangelicals. See why I get them mixed up? It was seriously ridiculous. My husband played in another Christian band, this time of mixed denominations, and started a little recording studio in our basement.
Then we had a baby and found out that ex_[insert denomination here] Anglicans/Episcopalians apparently don’t like kids very much. It got to the point where we couldn’t bring our toddler son to church because people expected us to spank him for shouting “Amen” a second later than everybody else did at the end of a prayer. Or for singing a bit off from the melody of the hymn.
We started visiting churches and found out just how many shuffle the kids away during worship. Didn’t anybody believe in going to worship as a family? Even while the kids were tiny?
Eventually, we became Catholic. When that became common knowledge, evangelicals would no longer work in my husband’s studio. Some of our evangelical friends stopped talking to us…a few who truly loved us and cared for us sat us down for serious conversation, and I think they were able to see that we still love Jesus and we don’t worship Mary. Anyway, those few are still our friends.
My in-laws think we are going to hell and taking the kids with us. I got pregnant again right after we became Catholic, and the response to this happy news was a tight-lipped, “Just how Catholic are you going to be?” (Answer: “Really Catholic, thanks.”) They were mortified we announced our conversion in our annual Christmas letter. They boycotted the new baby’s baptism and a few years later, boycotted my son’s First Holy Communion. They’ll probably boycott his sisters’ First Communions coming up in the next few years.
My family wondered aloud how we could become Catholic and risk our son being molested by a priest. (“Thanks for that vote of confidence in our attitude about parental responsibility.”)
What else is there to do but to shrug one’s shoulders and keep following Jesus?
They boycotted the new baby’s baptism and a few years later, boycotted my son’s First Holy Communion. They’ll probably boycott his sisters’ First Communions coming up in the next few years.
And yet, plenty of Catholic grandparents long to attend such celebrations but their own children aren’t raising their children in the faith.
I hope they have a change of heart.
Left Protestantism, went to the Catholics. Lost lots of friends, not out of malice, but “we don’t see you anymore, so we don’t think of you”. in the middle of losing my husband. though, did what i had to do and it looks like the kids are coming with. a huge wake-up to what being a Christian might mean to me. Didn’t see it as so hard, but that’s a statement on how shallow my faith was. So, there you go.
Division is difficult, devatastingly. Yet somehow, I’ve really grown.
After my conversion to Catholicism six years ago, I was dynamically verbous. The advice to just shut up for three years would have been sweet music for my husband’s ears. Beneficial? Yes. Probable? Heck no. Yet, I feel I may be very close now (minus the dream last night that I was vigorously sharing my trinitarian faith with my Mormon friends, seriously).
Absence from the family at Sunday worship, still really sucks. Yet, husband recently sincerely communicated we focus on the great treasury of the faith with we share and upon re-reading some of JPII’s “That They May Be One” and letting it sink in, I’m listening.
In the end, as a Catholic Christian, I believe there is some sort of reparative suffering going on in the midst of all this pain in division for the greater unity of the body of Christ. May we be one, come Lord Jesus.
A lot of the comments sound like how denominationalism has changed relationships, even when theology might be behind a lot of it. I’ve seen a lot of that, but coincidentally have seen two relationships deteriorate and that directly due to theology. I’ll mercifully leave out the numerous times I’ve been mocked or even told that I’m not a Christian for believing in an old earth. :-/
A couple in our small group at the nondenominational church recently left our small group and the church itself. The excuse was that they couldn’t serve in the ways they wanted to, but something else was at play. The husband would always steer small group conversations toward a theological debate, often talking about this book he just read by Jonathan Edwards or that sermon he just heard by John Piper. They ended up at an RCUS church, whose website is pretty clearly on the “you’re either with us theologically or you’re against us” side of things. They were great friends, but kept growing further and further away until they left. We talked about keeping in touch, but they live 40 miles away and without church in common, it just doesn’t work.
More frustratingly, my brother-in-law is in his third year at The Master’s College, John MacArthur’s college here in SoCal. He’s been a Christian for about four years and started at Azusa Pacific. We thought it would be great for him when he announced that he was transferring to Master’s and things started off well. Slowly but surely, though, his need to be right, to be holy, etc. has changed him into a person that is just hard to be around. (BTW, the post at http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/on-being-too-god-centered is PURE GOLD in understanding him these days.) I sometimes think he doesn’t understand the words that are coming out of his mouth on occasions; after recently breaking up with his girlfriend and learning that she (a Christian) was seeing a non-Christian he felt it was his duty to “quit being so gentle”. He confronted her (a red flag right there) alone (another red flag) and started berating her about her salvation. On another occasion, he and I were talking, along with my wife/his sister, about what we would say to someone if they only had one hour left. He said he would explain total depravity. My wife said she would tell the person how much Jesus loved them. When he scoffed, my wife said that she’s just interested in Scripture and asked her brother if he thought theology can communicate God’s love better than Scripture.
His response: “Why can’t it?”
We had to blink over that one for a while. I gave him a chance to recant, but he wouldn’t say that Scripture holds precedence in every way imaginable over theology. We… haven’t really talked deeply since, as every time we get started down that path, backs arch, arms cross, and the walls go up. It’s really sad, as this frenetic pursuit of … SOMETHING … has really soured him to us; I suspect we aren’t vocal enough or reformed enough or whatever and he’s concerned for us.
Am a TE at a PCA church in a college town. I’ve brought a lot of young people into the Calvinist fold. Brought a lot of them into covenant theology and all that.
There’s one guy a few years back that I was talking to, really bright and loved the Lord but was a Baptist. We used to talk a lot and I really enjoyed his company. He was very gifted and I wanted him to join our church.
I pressed him on the baptism issue and he didn’t budge, but he was always friendly and loving with me. Eventually I thought it was pointless and gave up but I also gave up on him. He got the point and started attending a bible church or something somewhere else, he later moved away.
Through Facebook I still keep in touch with him and I see how gifted he is loving people and sharing Jesus.
But I feel like I’ve really missed something.
At one time I very much found myself among the Young, Restless, and Reformed. There was a camaraderie that was truly to be envied and a sense of peace that came with knowing others were believing and experiencing the same things you were.
However, when I found that those beliefs and experiences were empty at the bottom (yes, I know we can debate later), and jettisoned most of them for alternatives I found myself not only at odds with Calvinism, but also the other things that attended to it. I never cared for reading the ESV. In fact, I have a general dislike for the ESV Study Bible today only because it beloved by Calvinists! In trying to understand this embarrassing fact, I saw that it was related to the relationships that were formed over its theological commitments. While I am convinced that the ESV Study Bible is a valuable resource, I wouldn’t want one because I don’t want to fit into what I think it signifies. They say “truth unites… and divides” and that is basically how it works among the YR&R, and it is clear that I still share some of those attitudes no matter how irrational they might be. In other words, if you find yourself disagreeing then the camaraderie dissipates, friendships are strained if not altogether lost, and you are tempted to take up positions that put a thumb in the eye of your opponents.
The thing is, though, I never was theologically criticized like I was when I was in my pre YR&R days. The YR&R have an evangelistic zeal for those on the outside, but once you have been in and out, they will pretty much leave you alone (unless you poke the hive’s nest). In a way, it’s like being a Christian and losing your faith. Christians won’t interact with you the way they did before and mostly don’t want to.
I think some of this has to do with being a story of failure. Your movement will never highlight the stories of people struggling, failing or walking away. You might not even associate with the people who are no longer with us. This isn’t unique to theology either. It happens in politics all the time.
But if a friendship is formed on things other than theology it lasts. I still have a few YR&R friends that I enjoy good times with, but that is because our relationship is based on different things. We still share a common commitment to Christ and loving others as best we can. We don’t always agree, but agreement is neither necessary nor sufficient for camaraderie.
My family is a Bible-based cult.
I moved out of home when I was 19. After years of depression, suicidal, exhausted, I decided if I was going to die anyway I might as well try to live.
That is the dramatic explanation but the real reason is that God called me out, and I went, without knowing where I was going–but He stirred life in me, and I obeyed. The brief answer to your query is that changing my theology and practices severed intimate relationship with most of my family. I was labeled rebellious, worldly, “not walking with the Lord”, the prodigal, a bad influence on my ten other brothers and sisters. I “stepped out from under the authority” and therefore am not obedient to God. They discussed, but never completely enforced, barring me from coming home to visit. And they will not allow me to do anything “special” with some of the younger brothers or sisters–our relationship is strictly controlled.
And yet the spiritual / emotional abuse, mind control, shame, etc were too much for me and I praise God for His salvation.
I love my parents deeply. Our relationship now is superficial, but we do communicate. I am grateful for this, for I know many women in my shoes, who have been completely exiled from their families. I am sad that things are the way they are, especially for the sake of my siblings, but I thank God that He has shown me who He is. For the first time, I know the true God and His grace.
Your story sounds a lot like mine…I’m guessing we were in the same cultish movement – big on “authority” and “standards”. I was 19 also when God showed me how much life there was outside the confines of our movement and how much truth in Scripture! I left legalism and found grace. I am the oldest of 12 children; I was called rebellious and went through a lot of pain, but ultimately, God used it for good in my life and in my family’s – it paved the way for my siblings upon reaching adulthood to also find different churches and not go through what I did; after several years out, my life showed that I was not crazy, or worldly, or rebellious.
God is faithful…all the time.
Anna–yes and yes!! I am so glad that your siblings have been able to avoid some of the pain. Hugs to you, sister.
Maybe 10 days or so ago, David Hayward at “Naked Pastor” posted back-to-back cartoons that speak to this. In the first, a guy with a ball & chain around his ankle labeled “My Theology” gropes as he tries to reach God but can’t make it. In the second, several guys have the same ball & chain with “My Theology” on their ankles, only this time, they are trying without sucess to reach out to one other. In both cases, one’s theology was a limiting factor, to state the obvious.
My personal experience is difficult to describe I was born and raised Catholic. At a very early age I pretty much believed everything that I was taught however at a certain point I decided that God was not important. When I was 9 I stopped going to Mass and instead I would take the money for the collection and go to the Arcade instead. I grew up a secular eventually in College Liberal person. I believed that abortion was indeed compassionate and though I thought about limits to it, I saw nothing wrong with it. I remember telling a friend of mine that an unborn baby was not a human being but a “potential” human being.
My relationship with my parents was never strained because of my lack of religion, though I did argue with them a lot about the Crusades and Inquisition and Mary Magdalene and how she was Jesus’ Wife and how Jesus was not God because he said he wasn’t. I was a cornucopia of heretical thought. Yet my relationship with my parents was never a bad one it was always very loving. They knew I would not go to Church yet they never forced me. Every once in a while my Mom would say things like “you should go to confession” and I would just say “aw come on Mom, not that again” and roll my eyes at her.
One of the favorite things my Mom liked to say was that one day I was going to wake up and see how much time I have wasted not going to Worship God I will regret it a great deal. I could not see at that time how that would ever happened.
It wasn’t until I was 25 that I for the first time discovered Protestant thought. And it was not the best introduction in the world, I do not think it represents the majority of Protestantism at least from what I have seen. Anyways I was working a driver for this company and I don’t know how but the topic of religion came up and somebody asked me what religion I was and I told them I was “Christian Catholic” then another driver who was there asked me, “well which one is it?” are you “Christian?” or are you “Catholic?” I was not really sure what he was asking so I told him “they are the same thing.” he said “no its not.” again I have no idea what he was trying to say. Then he said that he was an Evangelical Christian and that they did not believed the things Catholics believed to which I said, “that it was pretty much the same thing.” Once again he said that it wasn’t. I just dropped it at that point and never brought it up again.
Then there is my Wife but that is another story.
I grew up in an extremely dispensational, fundamentalist church and part of what has led to their complete disassociation (and denouncing) of me has been my shift toward reformed theology, especially covenantal theology. Although I doubt they were thrilled about the whole five pointer thing either.
It’s given me better perspective on others with similar stories, esp. those whose stories involve rejection by reformed types, stories which are entirely too common.