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	<title>Comments on: Open Discussion at the IM Mic: How Much Can The Bible Do &#8220;Alone?&#8221;</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Paul in the GNW</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-311948</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul in the GNW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I though some of this was very applicable, even though no one is still reading this. Of the 55 propositions, these are the most relevant no this discussion.  My &lt;b&gt;emphasis&lt;/b&gt;

from &lt;a href=&quot;http://ncrcafe.org/node/2228&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Synod on Sacred Scripture Propositions&quot;&lt;/a&gt;

Proposition 43: Bible and distribution

The synod desires to recall how necessary it is that all the faithful have easy access to reading the sacred texts. In this connection, a general mobilization is required so that the sacred text be distributed as widely as possible, and with all the instruments that modern technology offers, above all for those who are differently abled – to whom our attention should go in a special way.
A similar commitment is required to an exceptional form of collaboration among the churches so that those with greater means express greater solidarity in meeting the needs of the churches which are in greater difficulty. The synod fathers recommend supporting the efforts of the Catholic Biblical Federation for greater access to Sacred Scripture (DV 22), so that the number of translations of the Sacred Scripture may be increased and their distribution may be widespread. This should also be done in collaboration with the various Biblical Societies.

Proposition 48: Bible and inculturation

Revelation was expressed by taking from the diverse human cultures the authentic values susceptible of expressing the truth that, for our salvation, God has communicated to human persons. (DV, 11) In fact, the Word of God, as revelation, immersed in the cultures the consciousness of truth that otherwise would have remained hidden, and which created progress and cultural development. The mandate which the Lord gives to the church to announce the Gospel to all creatures (Mark 16:15) implies the encounter of the Word of God with all the peoples of the earth and their cultures. This presupposes the same process of inculturation of the Word of God which happened in revelation. For this reason, the Word of God must penetrate into every environment in such a way that the culture produces original expressions of life, or liturgy, of Christian thought. (CT 53) This happens when the Word of God, proposed to a culture, “makes fecund from within the spiritual qualities and the traditions of every people, confirms them, perfects them, and recapitulates them in Christ” (Gaudium et Spes, 58), arousing new expressions of Christian life.
&lt;b&gt;For an authentic inculturation of the evangelical message, a formation of missionaries must be assured with adequate means for knowing the environment of life in depth, as well as the social-cultural conditions, in such a way that the missionaries can insert themselves into the environment, the language and the local cultures. It’s the responsibility of the local church to reach an authentic inculturation of the gospel message, naturally paying attention to the risk of syncretism. The quality of inculturation depends upon the degree of maturity of the evangelizing community.&lt;/b&gt;

Proposition 49: Missio Ad Gentes

The Word of God is a good intended for all persons, which the church must not conserve for herself, but share with joy and generosity with all people and cultures, so that they too may find in Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life. (Jn 14:6)
Looking to the example of St. Paul, to the apostles and to so many missionaries throughout the history of the church who have carried the Gospel to the peoples, this synod reaffirms the urgency of the mission ad gentes also in our time. It’s an announcement that must be explicit, not only inside our churches, but everywhere, and &lt;b&gt;it must be accompanied by a coherent witness of life which renders the content of the announcement credible and reinforces it.&lt;/b&gt;
Bishops, priests, deacons, persons of consecrated life and laity must be close also to those persons who do not participate in the liturgy and who do not attend our communities. &lt;b&gt;The church must reach out to all with the strength of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:5), and continue to prophetically defend the right and the liberty of people to hear the Word of God, seeking the most effective means to proclaim it,&lt;/b&gt; even at the risk of persecution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I though some of this was very applicable, even though no one is still reading this. Of the 55 propositions, these are the most relevant no this discussion.  My <b>emphasis</b></p>
<p>from <a href="http://ncrcafe.org/node/2228" rel="nofollow">Synod on Sacred Scripture Propositions&#8221;</a></p>
<p>Proposition 43: Bible and distribution</p>
<p>The synod desires to recall how necessary it is that all the faithful have easy access to reading the sacred texts. In this connection, a general mobilization is required so that the sacred text be distributed as widely as possible, and with all the instruments that modern technology offers, above all for those who are differently abled – to whom our attention should go in a special way.<br />
A similar commitment is required to an exceptional form of collaboration among the churches so that those with greater means express greater solidarity in meeting the needs of the churches which are in greater difficulty. The synod fathers recommend supporting the efforts of the Catholic Biblical Federation for greater access to Sacred Scripture (DV 22), so that the number of translations of the Sacred Scripture may be increased and their distribution may be widespread. This should also be done in collaboration with the various Biblical Societies.</p>
<p>Proposition 48: Bible and inculturation</p>
<p>Revelation was expressed by taking from the diverse human cultures the authentic values susceptible of expressing the truth that, for our salvation, God has communicated to human persons. (DV, 11) In fact, the Word of God, as revelation, immersed in the cultures the consciousness of truth that otherwise would have remained hidden, and which created progress and cultural development. The mandate which the Lord gives to the church to announce the Gospel to all creatures (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Mark+16%3A15" class="bibleref" title="ESV Mark 16:15">Mark 16:15</a>) implies the encounter of the Word of God with all the peoples of the earth and their cultures. This presupposes the same process of inculturation of the Word of God which happened in revelation. For this reason, the Word of God must penetrate into every environment in such a way that the culture produces original expressions of life, or liturgy, of Christian thought. (CT 53) This happens when the Word of God, proposed to a culture, “makes fecund from within the spiritual qualities and the traditions of every people, confirms them, perfects them, and recapitulates them in Christ” (Gaudium et Spes, 58), arousing new expressions of Christian life.<br />
<b>For an authentic inculturation of the evangelical message, a formation of missionaries must be assured with adequate means for knowing the environment of life in depth, as well as the social-cultural conditions, in such a way that the missionaries can insert themselves into the environment, the language and the local cultures. It’s the responsibility of the local church to reach an authentic inculturation of the gospel message, naturally paying attention to the risk of syncretism. The quality of inculturation depends upon the degree of maturity of the evangelizing community.</b></p>
<p>Proposition 49: Missio Ad Gentes</p>
<p>The Word of God is a good intended for all persons, which the church must not conserve for herself, but share with joy and generosity with all people and cultures, so that they too may find in Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life. (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Jn+14%3A6" class="bibleref" title="ESV Jn 14:6">Jn 14:6</a>)<br />
Looking to the example of St. Paul, to the apostles and to so many missionaries throughout the history of the church who have carried the Gospel to the peoples, this synod reaffirms the urgency of the mission ad gentes also in our time. It’s an announcement that must be explicit, not only inside our churches, but everywhere, and <b>it must be accompanied by a coherent witness of life which renders the content of the announcement credible and reinforces it.</b><br />
Bishops, priests, deacons, persons of consecrated life and laity must be close also to those persons who do not participate in the liturgy and who do not attend our communities. <b>The church must reach out to all with the strength of the Spirit (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Cor+2%3A5" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Cor 2:5">1 Cor 2:5</a>), and continue to prophetically defend the right and the liberty of people to hear the Word of God, seeking the most effective means to proclaim it,</b> even at the risk of persecution.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Urfer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-309102</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Urfer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:22:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone#comment-309102</guid>
		<description>Michael,

Key words in that quote include &quot;proper footnotes&quot;, &quot;adapted to their situation&quot;, and &quot;wise distribution&quot;.  There is nothing in that paragraph that disagrees with anything I said, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>Key words in that quote include &#8220;proper footnotes&#8221;, &#8220;adapted to their situation&#8221;, and &#8220;wise distribution&#8221;.  There is nothing in that paragraph that disagrees with anything I said, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: Eduardo</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-308447</link>
		<dc:creator>Eduardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone#comment-308447</guid>
		<description>Michael, you seem to be talking about the doctrine of the Perspicuity of Scripture. According to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theopedia.com/Perspicuity_of_Scripture&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Theopedia&lt;a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (often called the &quot;perspicuity of Scripture&quot;) teaches that &quot;the meanings of the text can be clear to the ordinary reader, that God uses the text of the Bible to communicate His person and will.&quot;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Regards,

Eduardo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, you seem to be talking about the doctrine of the Perspicuity of Scripture. According to <a href="http://www.theopedia.com/Perspicuity_of_Scripture" rel="nofollow">Theopedia</a><a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (often called the &#8220;perspicuity of Scripture&#8221;) teaches that &#8220;the meanings of the text can be clear to the ordinary reader, that God uses the text of the Bible to communicate His person and will.&#8221;
</p></blockquote>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Eduardo</a></p>
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		<title>By: iMonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-308416</link>
		<dc:creator>iMonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone#comment-308416</guid>
		<description>From Dei Verbum (Vatican II Dogmatic Constitution on scripture):

&quot;Furthermore, editions of the Sacred Scriptures, provided with suitable footnotes, should be prepared also for the use of non-Christians and adapted to their situation. &lt;strong&gt;Both pastors of souls and Christians generally should see to the wise distribution of these in one way or another.&quot;&lt;/strong&gt;

Sorry to the &quot;waste of time&quot; committee. Looks like the RCC was out in front of a few of its members.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Dei Verbum (Vatican II Dogmatic Constitution on scripture):</p>
<p>&#8220;Furthermore, editions of the Sacred Scriptures, provided with suitable footnotes, should be prepared also for the use of non-Christians and adapted to their situation. <strong>Both pastors of souls and Christians generally should see to the wise distribution of these in one way or another.&#8221;</strong></p>
<p>Sorry to the &#8220;waste of time&#8221; committee. Looks like the RCC was out in front of a few of its members.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-308305</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone#comment-308305</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m late to this discussion, but here&#039;s a Lutheran perspective (not angry, but still Lutheran) on the original question (&lt;i&gt;How much does the Bible need the church in order to do what the Word of God can do?&lt;/i&gt;):

&lt;i&gt;men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ&#039;s sake, through faith ... that we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith where and when it pleases God, in them that hear the Gospel&lt;/i&gt; (Augsburg Confession, articles 4 &amp; 5)

Note that it is not &quot;the Bible&quot; as such through which the Holy Ghost is given, but the Church&#039;s ministry of Word and Sacrament.  For us, then, the Church is absolutely needed for the Word of God to do its (His, really) work, because that is the purpose for which He founded the Church.  But it is not the Church as an institution or as an authority that is needed, but the Church as the liturgical assembly in which the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered.

Or as St Cyprian so much more succinctly put it, &lt;i&gt;extra ecclesiam nulla salus&lt;/i&gt;.

There is nothing wrong with distributing Bibles, and I have no doubt that people sometimes come to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord through the reading of those Bibles.  But two points must be made.  First, those Bibles would not exist had the Church not guarded and handed down the Scriptures in her Tradition through the ages.  So even he who is converted by reading the Bible &quot;on his own&quot; has actually been converted through the ministry of the Church, and is the recipient of her Tradition.  Secondly, he who is &quot;converted&quot; through solitary reading of the Bible has not united himself to Christ until and unless he joins himself to His body, the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m late to this discussion, but here&#8217;s a Lutheran perspective (not angry, but still Lutheran) on the original question (<i>How much does the Bible need the church in order to do what the Word of God can do?</i>):</p>
<p><i>men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ&#8217;s sake, through faith &#8230; that we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith where and when it pleases God, in them that hear the Gospel</i> (Augsburg Confession, articles 4 &amp; 5)</p>
<p>Note that it is not &#8220;the Bible&#8221; as such through which the Holy Ghost is given, but the Church&#8217;s ministry of Word and Sacrament.  For us, then, the Church is absolutely needed for the Word of God to do its (His, really) work, because that is the purpose for which He founded the Church.  But it is not the Church as an institution or as an authority that is needed, but the Church as the liturgical assembly in which the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered.</p>
<p>Or as St Cyprian so much more succinctly put it, <i>extra ecclesiam nulla salus</i>.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with distributing Bibles, and I have no doubt that people sometimes come to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord through the reading of those Bibles.  But two points must be made.  First, those Bibles would not exist had the Church not guarded and handed down the Scriptures in her Tradition through the ages.  So even he who is converted by reading the Bible &#8220;on his own&#8221; has actually been converted through the ministry of the Church, and is the recipient of her Tradition.  Secondly, he who is &#8220;converted&#8221; through solitary reading of the Bible has not united himself to Christ until and unless he joins himself to His body, the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-308142</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 10:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Bible .. alone ... has proven to be the most dangerous book in the world, starting war after religious war. 

The Bible .. together with the Spirit of God to bring supernatural wisdom, guidance, and instruction  .. turns the Bible into a love story and brings Heaven to Earth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bible .. alone &#8230; has proven to be the most dangerous book in the world, starting war after religious war. </p>
<p>The Bible .. together with the Spirit of God to bring supernatural wisdom, guidance, and instruction  .. turns the Bible into a love story and brings Heaven to Earth</p>
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		<title>By: skehigo</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-306837</link>
		<dc:creator>skehigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone#comment-306837</guid>
		<description>What financial planning have you done for yourself? 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.xanga.com/fran3030&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;My trading&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What financial planning have you done for yourself?<br />
<a href="http://www.xanga.com/fran3030" rel="nofollow">My trading</a></p>
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		<title>By: Timothy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-306218</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 03:50:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone#comment-306218</guid>
		<description>What has been unstated by all the commnters is everyone seems to have made the presumption that all the people receiving bibles are literate. Keep in mind that literacy is largely a post-World War II phenomenom. Before the second world war, few European countries had literacy programs. Most of the answers above seem to take for granted that Bible recipients are literate.

The U.S. literacy rate is about 95%. This means that among our 300 residents that about 15-16 milllion cannot read. That about the same number of people as are registered as members by the Southern Baptist Convention.

The world literacy rate is about 80%. Based on a world population of about 6 billion, that translates into about 1.2 billion people who cannot benefit from a written Bible.

For the individual wanting to bomb Afghanistan with Bibles, only one person in three or four would even be able to read it and that person would likely be a male. Afghanistan&#039;s literacy rate is around 28%; 43% for males.

As Fr. Ernesto stated, its better than nothing. Hopefully those Bibles are full of pictures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What has been unstated by all the commnters is everyone seems to have made the presumption that all the people receiving bibles are literate. Keep in mind that literacy is largely a post-World War II phenomenom. Before the second world war, few European countries had literacy programs. Most of the answers above seem to take for granted that Bible recipients are literate.</p>
<p>The U.S. literacy rate is about 95%. This means that among our 300 residents that about 15-16 milllion cannot read. That about the same number of people as are registered as members by the Southern Baptist Convention.</p>
<p>The world literacy rate is about 80%. Based on a world population of about 6 billion, that translates into about 1.2 billion people who cannot benefit from a written Bible.</p>
<p>For the individual wanting to bomb Afghanistan with Bibles, only one person in three or four would even be able to read it and that person would likely be a male. Afghanistan&#8217;s literacy rate is around 28%; 43% for males.</p>
<p>As Fr. Ernesto stated, its better than nothing. Hopefully those Bibles are full of pictures.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-305608</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone#comment-305608</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed NT Wright&#039;s little book which was interestingly called &quot;Scripture and the Authority of God&quot; (stupidly called &quot;The Last Word&quot; by the American publishers), published by SPCK. While Wright was talking about authority and not our own topic, he taught me to reframe the question as so:

Instead of asking, &#039;what is the Bible&#039;s authority,&#039; let&#039;s ask instead, &#039;how does God exercise his authority in the Church through the Bible?&#039; 

My response to the question on the thread is similar to Alan&#039;s, but informed by Wright&#039;s reframing: What are the normative ways that God was to use (and does use) to form people as Christians? The Bible can do nothing on its own, and does nothing on its own. A good Calvinist would say the same about himself, wouldn&#039;t he? :0) Clearly, demonstrably, God &lt;i&gt;uses&lt;/i&gt; the Scriptures outside of the Church to bring people to knowledge of Himself. He also uses dreams and visions to bring benighted Muslims to himself, where the Church as such cannot reach. God is not limited by his own preference of tools, but I would say that &lt;i&gt;normally&lt;/i&gt;, God wants to birth people into the Community and bring them up in a healthy fashion. In the same way that its unfortunate for kids to be brought up in orphanages, it does mean that they shouldn&#039;t be given food. Offering the Bible but not the Church is something God does and something God uses, but it&#039;s not normal or preferable to the whole package.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed NT Wright&#8217;s little book which was interestingly called &#8220;Scripture and the Authority of God&#8221; (stupidly called &#8220;The Last Word&#8221; by the American publishers), published by SPCK. While Wright was talking about authority and not our own topic, he taught me to reframe the question as so:</p>
<p>Instead of asking, &#8216;what is the Bible&#8217;s authority,&#8217; let&#8217;s ask instead, &#8216;how does God exercise his authority in the Church through the Bible?&#8217; </p>
<p>My response to the question on the thread is similar to Alan&#8217;s, but informed by Wright&#8217;s reframing: What are the normative ways that God was to use (and does use) to form people as Christians? The Bible can do nothing on its own, and does nothing on its own. A good Calvinist would say the same about himself, wouldn&#8217;t he? :0) Clearly, demonstrably, God <i>uses</i> the Scriptures outside of the Church to bring people to knowledge of Himself. He also uses dreams and visions to bring benighted Muslims to himself, where the Church as such cannot reach. God is not limited by his own preference of tools, but I would say that <i>normally</i>, God wants to birth people into the Community and bring them up in a healthy fashion. In the same way that its unfortunate for kids to be brought up in orphanages, it does mean that they shouldn&#8217;t be given food. Offering the Bible but not the Church is something God does and something God uses, but it&#8217;s not normal or preferable to the whole package.</p>
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		<title>By: urban otter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone/comment-page-3#comment-305536</link>
		<dc:creator>urban otter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 08:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/open-discussion-at-the-im-mic-how-much-can-the-bible-do-alone#comment-305536</guid>
		<description>&quot;My point was simply that having a group of people around you to teach you what the Bible “really” means is in no way a garauntee of Truth.&quot;

But is there even a guarantee of Truth in the first place?  

How could a reader, any reader, distinguish a false interpretation from a true one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My point was simply that having a group of people around you to teach you what the Bible “really” means is in no way a garauntee of Truth.&#8221;</p>
<p>But is there even a guarantee of Truth in the first place?  </p>
<p>How could a reader, any reader, distinguish a false interpretation from a true one?</p>
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