Comments on: On The Side of the Rebel Jesus: Ron Sider’s Quixotic Quest for An Ethical Evangelicalism

By: Jendi

Jendi — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Yes, conservative churches need to speak more about economic justice, just as liberal churches like mine (Episcopal)need to speak more about personal morality. But nearly all the sermons I hear about poverty are sentimental and simplistic, based on the dubious assumption that we can save the world by sending money to countries where political corruption, not a lack of natural resources, is the main cause of inequality. (Our time would be better spent urging our own govt not to make that corruption worse!) It’s heresy in liberal Christian circles to look objectively at what kinds of intervention actually work.

By: Jaz

Jaz — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

One way of looking at the stats is as a comparison of the greater culture and of the church culture. Given that the church doesn’t have the power to enforce rules concerning marriage and divorce and abortion (and so on) that the state does, it comes down to what kind of culture it has.

So, _can_ the church foster a counter-culture so that its “sin stats” are different? Because Sider implies that the current church culture _is_ a counter-culture: some “sin stats” are worse than the world’s! (I do happen to think some of his sin stats are simplistic–is the guy a statistician?)

So if the church can’t affect the “sin stats” by creating a counter-culture _without_ the power of the state, then let’s pack up and go home, and people might even sin less…fewer broken homes can only be a good thing. I think the church _can_ indeed (and should) create a counter-culture that can help people live differently. But the problem is: it _doesn’t want to!_ The evangelical church _likes_ it the way it is! And maybe in the end Sider is trying to get us to see that.

By: Joe

Joe — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

i’d rather read “Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators”

By: Ol'Geezer

Ol'Geezer — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Sider has no meaningful stats because he compares members of local congregations (not Christians) to people who are not members of local congregations. (Also, why would anyone believe what the World Bank says?) If a Christian (who also happens to be a member of local congregation) is divorced, against his desire, by a spouse who is admittedly not a Christian, is that divorce statistically counted as a Christian or a non-Christian divorce? The simple fact is that within the local congregation it is not easy to distinguish the wheat from the tares. Of course, it is to be hoped that within the local cogregation discipline of unrepentant, habitual sinners would occur.

Sider remains what he he has always been, “a lost ball in high weeds.”

By: dabhidh

dabhidh — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

People may say what they like about Ron Sider, but this confusing of the ethical dimension of Christianity with “legalism” is the reason for Sider’s statistics, and for the accompanying weakness of the Christian witness in our time. A Christianity that does nothing to transform the lives of its adherents or impact the culture in which it exists is clearly effete. I don’t believe that the answer is more and better condemnation in sermons however, but rather Christians should just start living as if Christ is really Lord, and pastors and teachers should stop irresponsible teaching that emphasizes “grace” over all obedience, and defines “faith” as some sort of mystical concept rather than as faithfulness, which implies doing as well as believing. These are not new ideas.

By: Matt

Matt — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Mike, I always appreciate your insight, but those statistics have bothered me for a long time. Andrew Sullivan likes to cite those divorce stats, but I think they’re off. Are these “Christians” defined as such because they say they’re Christians or because they’re on the roles of a church? I know the Church should do a much better job of discipling folks, but you and I both know that most Southerners will say “Sure, I’m a Christian.” That says nothing about actual beliefs or dedication. I don’t think we should discount your points at all - indeed it would be foolish to do so - but I think those stats need further scrutiny.

By: Joi

Joi — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

I can’t help but think of my own congregation. I’ve grown up in terrible churches, and hated the sight of them, until I found the church I’m in now.
The thing is, my priest manages to preach morality, and yet is so warm and open that no-one is condemned. People are inspired to change, because they know they’ve found a safe place to do it in. Everyone’s going to encourage them in their desire to change, but they’re not going to pounce on them if/when they fail in. It’s the first community I’ve been in that didn’t regularly shoot its wounded.
My priest always likes to say that the idea is to have, “No compromise of Truth, no lack of Love.” And it works. People’s lives have been changed, deeply and profoundly.
So, simplistic as it sounds, maybe the key to real personal change within the Christian community is, simply, love.

By: tom smedley

tom smedley — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

The elephant inthe living room is the fact that 90% of confessing evangelical believers have also embraced the official state church of our nation, and supported this generic statist unitarianism with offerings far more precious than money. They have sent their children into the bowels of moloch, to be indoctrinated in the statist view of reality for 30 hours a week. we’be been doing this for 140 years now, and the vision of Christ-hater horace mann is being fulfilled. the culture is being dechristianized one child at a time, as we cooperate in our own corruption, with a view towards our eventuall extinction.

By: Shannon Richey

Shannon Richey — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

when I read this I thought it was more about Sider calling some Evangelicals on their hypocrisy-their over-willingness to point the finger at other people (or cartoon characters, in the case of James Dobson lately) but not see the other three fingers pointed back at them. This does not make evangelicals look good to ‘the outside’ and since the ones who are the most vocal in this country at the moment are evangelicals, many non-Christians think we are all exactly like this.

I just think it is important to practice what we preach to the best of our ability. I am not really concerned with hearing people rail on and on about how evil our society is, I am more interested in hearing what these people are willing to do to help the people who are going through the hurtful situations and have the problems they are railing against. Many times there are a lot more to the stories than we see from the outside, and if a lot of the ‘railers’ would be willing to get closer to the people the way Jesus did, they would be able to see these things and be more able to provide some real healing.

By: Mac

Mac — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Hi Michael,
Excellent article (as always). N.T. Wright’s view seems to uncover the deeper underlying issue of Lordship. In my view of the Boomer Churches, I have noted how Jesus has been marginalized, perhaps made even “commemorative”. The sense of His immediate presence, which is transformative, has been lost annd/or replaced by a dominant “Us-ism” that is quite boring and will never present a counter-culture.

There has also been a significant loss in the area of theology and biblical work. 25 years ago a local book store would have major theological works and study aids for more in-depth research into the Texts. It is the Texts themselves (as Brueggemann so aptly points out) that are inherently sub-versive (literally). An openness and faith in the “Rebel Jesus” Who is alone Lord, informaed by a subversive text (and aided by the Spirit) seems a big step away from consumer religion and legalism (as well as the Church’s penchant for forms of gnosticism). Your thoghts?
Also, I’d be interested in running part of this article at the Doghouse Ministries Blog site and website, then linking to yours to finish. That okay with you? Grace, Mac (Christopher C. MacDonald). Mac@azotuscafe.com