I cannot allow that amount of quoted material. Sorry. You can link it and I will allow it.

thanks

The “wrongs” may not have involved other people, and they may not have even involved reality in the true sense - it’s simply their perceptions that led them down that road. A person may leave a religion because they felt that their God(s) abandoned them in a time of need. They may have left because they were physically abused by a parent, teacher, friend, pastor, etc who was involved with the church.

Logic dictates that since the Abrahamic Faiths have the most believers, that most people will be raised in those Faiths. With the exception of Atheism, there aren’t very many non-Pagan religions that a person can turn to

How can I say this? As the Owner of the Pagan Forums (http://www.paganforum.com) I meet my share of Pagans, Wiccans, Heathens, and “other”. On *and* offline…and these are people with real lives who live in the real world. Take it for what it’s worth - most Pagans had a bad experience with Christianity…which is why they left Christianity in the first place.

Thank you, Edie. Always interested in feedback.

Question.

I am assuming you are currently a Wiccan. If this is not a true assumption, I beg your forgiveness.

But if this is a true assumption … were you once a Christian? If so, why did you switch over? Assuming it was not reasons 1-4, what were they ? I spoke according to my own observations, but I’m always on the lookout for more data.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I totally disagree with 1)2)3) and 4) of your arguments. Wicca (true Wicca) holds many who have never been abused, never were Christian, and never suffered at all. I could write a long essay here but instead I will suggest that perhaps you are talking to “online Wiccans” , rather than persons in a Coven in real life.

If you dig deep you will find many Christian Traditions stem from Pagan traditions, and while all Pagans are not Wiccan, all Wiccans are Pagan…..

Wicca is only about 60 years old.

Yep. You might look at Jack Chick’s treatment of witchcraft, for example. The kind of Christianity he speaks for is no small thing, especially in the South.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I dunno. I’d be far more moved by someone offering to pray for me than at all worried about someone in a wizard get-up threatening to curse me. Of course, I’ve had the benefit of hearing as a kid all the Celtic Christian saint stories where various magicians and druids can’t do squat against Patrick, Bridgit, et al. and the Torah alone is full of stories showing the power of magicians is nothing God can’t control. The story of Balaam setting out to curse, but instead having to bless, the Israelites just rolled around again last week: no one can curse what God has decided to bless.

I suppose I am out of touch with the segment of Christianity that freaks about magic. I know medieval Christians and Salem Puritans were pretty spooked by the idea of witches (well before Hollywood), but I had thought we had grown out of that as a faith. Are large segments of Christianity still as superstitious and spooked by curses as medieval peasants?

I do NOT believe you err in calling HP “Science fiction”.

Both fantasy and SF are part of the larger family of speculative fiction, and as such are often interchangeable.

For example! HP gets his power from magic. Suppose we changed the origin of the story so that instead he’s a mutant with certain inborn powers in a school with other mutants.

Congratulations. It’s no longer HP — it’s now Marvel’s X-men, with Xavier’s academy for mutants.

Or suppose we say that he gets his power from enhanced mental ability, enhanced by surgery, DNA alteration, and technological devices. Now it’s an SF story.

Any SF story can be turned into a fantasy story with a few strokes of the pen. An energy rifle becomes a wand of fireballs. The jump drive becomes the teleportation spell. The wizard becomes the mad scientist.

Likewise, any fantasy story can be changed into an SF story.

And some stories are not clearcut fantasy or SF. Example: Look at George Lucas. He has lasers and spaceships, but a) there is no scientific reality behind these devices and B) he has dark lords and swords, and people born with special powers and mystical sages.

Thus, I think it fair to describe “Star Wars” not as SF but as a fantasy set in space.

All the really good SF writers (Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, Robert Heinlein, Isaac Asimov) are or were ALSO really good fantasy writers. Likewise, really good fantasy authors (C.S. Lewis, Norton, Diane Duane,
Terry Pratchett, whoever wrote ‘A Wrinkle In Time’) write really good SF.

Why? Because a real speculative fiction story is about human beings. Get the human characters right, the “fantastic worlds” aspect fades into the background. Notice that lots of people are more interested in Harry and Hermione or whether so-and-so will betray so-and-so, or Dumbledore’s Heroic death, and few people care about the “magic” as such. That’s the mark of good speculative fiction. The characters … the human story, the myth … come to the fore. The technology … or magic, or whatever else it is that makes this world different from “real life” … becomes less important, fading into background.

So .. yes. HP, if it isn’t SF as such, is it’s first cousin.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Thanks for addressing the extreme ways we tend to look at the subject: Downplay the magic as nothing. Or Fear It.

My children are aware of the dangers and power of alcoholism, of cars (e.g. crossing a busy street or the collision we were involved in), etc. I do not hide these realities from my children, nor do they go around constantly obsessed with them. In part because (1) in the case of alchoholism, they have seen 1sthand the foolishness of the end result and (2) in the case of cars being dangerous, there are some very practical precautions they know (looking both ways, e.g.) which makes cars less dangerous to them personally.

With magic or supernatural power used in evil ways, there is also the real and very practical spiritual reality. Wiccan power is not infinite, and as you said so well, We have access to the Creator, and His Spirit lives within us. Wow! Thanks for reminding me of this. I do not want my children to be unaware of dark uses of spiritual power, nor do I want them to obsessively fear it.

I’m not sure yet how all this carries over for me with regards to Harry Potter. With my little ISFJ mind so rooted in the literal here and now, I tend to avoid all science fiction like the plague. I just can’t stand it personally (maybe that’s heresy on a post with people who love H.P.!) Personally, that’s no big deal. I read voraciously, and if I’m lacking in one genre, well, I’ll just be lacking.

The struggle I have is guiding my children with principles for reading and understanding literature in this genre, which some of my children do really enjoy. Because I so don’t get it personally, I tend to write it off for no better reason than personal preference. I appreciate that this post and the comments have helped me think through some of the other issues and principles I could not get to because of my own personal (and admittedly shallow) bias.

With respect, I don’t think that’s the issue at all.

I think that “wizard” and “witch” are, for Christians, words with a high emotional loading. Like the word “ni**er” for African-Americans. It has all these Hollywood connotations, and prompts a strong fear reaction.

Lemme give an example.

Imagine I walk up to you and say, I’ll pray for you.

What is your response? Probably a shrug of the shoulders. You don’t care.

Now imagine I put on a black robe, walk up to you, silver pentacle gleaming, and say I’m going to cast a spell on you. What is your response now?

Well, if you’re like a lot of Christians, you panic. You doubly panic if I threaten to do it to your kids.

We believe more strongly in the power of magic than we do in the power of prayer. And that’s wrong. Prayer is MORE powerful. Even Wiccans will tell you that Christian prayer is as powerful as any spell they cast. That’s why they consider praying Christians magicians. We don’t claim the title, but they see supernatural power moving when we pray. We rightly refuse the title, but to them *any* exercise of supernatural power is “magic”, and they know what they see.

What’s more than that, We KNOW prayer works. I bet there are any number of people on this site … including the owner … who can testify to the real and awesome power of prayer in their lives.

How many can make an equally strong testimony about the power of pagan magic? Not as many, I’ll bet. Not nearly as many.

So why do we ignore or downplay prayer while freaking out about magic? I believe the simple answer is: pure Hollywood. Nothing else. We see magic being powerful and cool on the big screen. We don’t see prayer mentioned at all. But remember: Moses kicked the A** of the Egyptian Magicians, and we have a better covenent!

You run into a Christian kid who wants to be a magician? Teach him to pray. In the eyes of Wiccans, he’ll be a magician. He will get the same or better results than they do… provided he prays in accordance with God’s will.

Through prayer, we have access to the One who created the universe. More than that, we are indwelt — possessed? — by that same Spirit. What does a mere magician have compared with that?

We have a lot more than we think we do, and Wiccans have a lot less than Hollywood gives them credit for. If we can see past the Hollywood to the truth .. and accept the fact that we have far more spiritual power than they … then no one will ever fear a witch. Much.

Mind: Their supernatural power IS real and does deserve respect. But we shouldn’t be terrified of it, as if we were defenseless. We are not.

Respectfully,

Brian P.