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	<title>Comments on: New Covenant Lent</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Glenda</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-383463</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-383463</guid>
		<description>Wow, Mike.  Thanks!  I badly needed to hear (read) the words you wrote.  I struggle with seeing God primarily as demanding lawgiver and harsh judge.  I appreciate every glimpse I get of the love and freedom to be found in Jesus.  Thanks for your insight.  Thank you for writing something that allows the burden of legalism to be lifted a bit more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Mike.  Thanks!  I badly needed to hear (read) the words you wrote.  I struggle with seeing God primarily as demanding lawgiver and harsh judge.  I appreciate every glimpse I get of the love and freedom to be found in Jesus.  Thanks for your insight.  Thank you for writing something that allows the burden of legalism to be lifted a bit more.</p>
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		<title>By: Surfnetter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-383305</link>
		<dc:creator>Surfnetter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-383305</guid>
		<description>Yeah -- Glenn -- &quot;Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell -- spirituality is for those who have already been there.&quot; Anon.

It&#039;s Joseph Campbell&#039;s &quot;marsupial pouch analogy.&quot; Religion is a &quot;womb with a view,&quot; meant to prepare neophytes for everyday, moment to moment real situations where the &quot;liturgical year&quot; scheduling of spiritual activities are not much help except as background.

Campbell said that the problem with Western religions is that they demand to keep the member in the womb from cradle to grave. I agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah &#8212; Glenn &#8212; &#8220;Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell &#8212; spirituality is for those who have already been there.&#8221; Anon.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s Joseph Campbell&#8217;s &#8220;marsupial pouch analogy.&#8221; Religion is a &#8220;womb with a view,&#8221; meant to prepare neophytes for everyday, moment to moment real situations where the &#8220;liturgical year&#8221; scheduling of spiritual activities are not much help except as background.</p>
<p>Campbell said that the problem with Western religions is that they demand to keep the member in the womb from cradle to grave. I agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Lashway</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-383284</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Lashway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-383284</guid>
		<description>I love your title about New Covenant Lent, but I am shocked that no one has pointed out that the New Covenant went into effect at the death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord, not as his birth, as Hebrews clearly points out, especially 9:15-17. The Gospels are much easier to understand, then, if we read them as the last writings of the Old Covenant. The reference, then, to the disciples&#039; fasting fits together with Jesus&#039; comment about tithing, and the whole discourse on the Law in the sermon on the mount. Jesus is preparing his disciples for life in the New Covenant, at which time, they will be empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Their New Covenant motivation--our New Covenant motivation--will then manifest itself, not by the ritualistic keeping of laws, but by the free expression of the life of the Christ who lives in me,and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me (Gal 2:20).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love your title about New Covenant Lent, but I am shocked that no one has pointed out that the New Covenant went into effect at the death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord, not as his birth, as Hebrews clearly points out, especially 9:15-17. The Gospels are much easier to understand, then, if we read them as the last writings of the Old Covenant. The reference, then, to the disciples&#8217; fasting fits together with Jesus&#8217; comment about tithing, and the whole discourse on the Law in the sermon on the mount. Jesus is preparing his disciples for life in the New Covenant, at which time, they will be empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Their New Covenant motivation&#8211;our New Covenant motivation&#8211;will then manifest itself, not by the ritualistic keeping of laws, but by the free expression of the life of the Christ who lives in me,and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me (Gal 2:20).</p>
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		<title>By: Surfnetter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-383251</link>
		<dc:creator>Surfnetter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-383251</guid>
		<description>For those who don&#039;t know,  -- particularly during the days prior to electric refrigeration, Friday is the day fishmongers need to clean out their coolers as to not be holding too much fresh product over the long weekend, especially during the days of the Sunday &quot;blue&quot; laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those who don&#8217;t know,  &#8212; particularly during the days prior to electric refrigeration, Friday is the day fishmongers need to clean out their coolers as to not be holding too much fresh product over the long weekend, especially during the days of the Sunday &#8220;blue&#8221; laws.</p>
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		<title>By: Surfnetter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-383230</link>
		<dc:creator>Surfnetter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-383230</guid>
		<description>In catching up on this thread, I am quite bemused that such deep conviction and theological exegesis is generated over a topic that on the side of RCC Canon Law seems now to be subsumed in modern dietary science.

For the Magisterium to be so assertively authoritative on prescribing fasting (i.e., self-deprivation and voluntary loss for the sake of the Gospel) on certain days of the week and the liturgical year is indeed a questionable usurping of personal choice and freedom. But it is one of the oldest traditions in Christendom.  

However, what is called &quot;fasting&quot; by the Bishops is what nearly every modern health professional advocates as daily lifestyle change if you want to live a long, healthy and energetic life.

I&#039;m a commercial fisherman. Meatless Fridays was continued for all those years in part because of the power of the seafood lobby. But the long term affects of this policy by the Roman authorities of the largest and most powerful religious body in the Western World has been devastating to the industry.

The cattle industry in Texas sued Oprah several years ago under a law they got passed that makes it a civil offense to publicly denigrate beef. I would like to call the Magisterium to task for promoting eating fish as a means to complete the suffering of Christ on the Cross. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In catching up on this thread, I am quite bemused that such deep conviction and theological exegesis is generated over a topic that on the side of RCC Canon Law seems now to be subsumed in modern dietary science.</p>
<p>For the Magisterium to be so assertively authoritative on prescribing fasting (i.e., self-deprivation and voluntary loss for the sake of the Gospel) on certain days of the week and the liturgical year is indeed a questionable usurping of personal choice and freedom. But it is one of the oldest traditions in Christendom.  </p>
<p>However, what is called &#8220;fasting&#8221; by the Bishops is what nearly every modern health professional advocates as daily lifestyle change if you want to live a long, healthy and energetic life.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a commercial fisherman. Meatless Fridays was continued for all those years in part because of the power of the seafood lobby. But the long term affects of this policy by the Roman authorities of the largest and most powerful religious body in the Western World has been devastating to the industry.</p>
<p>The cattle industry in Texas sued Oprah several years ago under a law they got passed that makes it a civil offense to publicly denigrate beef. I would like to call the Magisterium to task for promoting eating fish as a means to complete the suffering of Christ on the Cross. <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Martha</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-382590</link>
		<dc:creator>Martha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-382590</guid>
		<description>And yes, with that last comment, I&#039;m ducking and running like the hammers of heck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yes, with that last comment, I&#8217;m ducking and running like the hammers of heck.</p>
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		<title>By: Martha</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-382588</link>
		<dc:creator>Martha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-382588</guid>
		<description>Phew!  I&#039;m relieved I don&#039;t have to get into a cage match with you, Fr. Ernesto :-)

&quot;That proposal was, as shocking as it sounds, to actually do it as Scripture says, to use the actual astronomical vernal equinox and do the first full moon after that at Jerusalem as determined by astronomical observances/calculations.&quot;

Yeah, but then if we did it that way, we&#039;d have all the fun of the controversy over calculating Eid ul-Fitr that our Muslim brethren indulge in. Do you use the physical sighting of the new moon, or do you rely upon astronomical calculations?  That&#039;s an ongoing dispute, with both sides advancing reasons for their practice.

Now, if the Easterners would only submit to Rome... ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phew!  I&#8217;m relieved I don&#8217;t have to get into a cage match with you, Fr. Ernesto <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>&#8220;That proposal was, as shocking as it sounds, to actually do it as Scripture says, to use the actual astronomical vernal equinox and do the first full moon after that at Jerusalem as determined by astronomical observances/calculations.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, but then if we did it that way, we&#8217;d have all the fun of the controversy over calculating Eid ul-Fitr that our Muslim brethren indulge in. Do you use the physical sighting of the new moon, or do you rely upon astronomical calculations?  That&#8217;s an ongoing dispute, with both sides advancing reasons for their practice.</p>
<p>Now, if the Easterners would only submit to Rome&#8230; <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Martha</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-382578</link>
		<dc:creator>Martha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-382578</guid>
		<description>Fearsome Comrade, I&#039;m saying that the reformers weren&#039;t Protestants all their lives :-)

I&#039;m saying they grew up as Catholics, with the same background of what was acceptable exegesis as the rest of Western Christendom, and even when (for example) Luther was convinced of the necessity of &quot;Sola Scriptura&quot;, he still had the formation of mind that unconsciously moved along the channels of one authoritative (not authortarian!) interpretation derived from the text that would be self-evident to all.

They got a nasty shock when the &#039;self-evident&#039; interpretations contradicted one another, and when trying to come to some reconciliation of their views to present a united front against the errors of Rome.  

I&#039;m saying that is why they instinctively looked to the earthly princes as God-delegated authorities to guard and guarantee the new dispensation.

I&#039;m saying Luther and Calvin, in some ways, were closer to me than to their modern disciplines, purely because they had come out of that mediaeval world.  They may have rejected the veneration of the saints as superstition, but they understood it in a way modern Protestants don&#039;t, because modern Protestants haven&#039;t grown up with it and come out of a culture saturated with it.  If Luther could be brought forward in a time machine and witness, for example, the celebrations of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I&#039;m sure he might denounce it as rank superstition, but he&#039;d get it; he&#039;d get why it happened and how it happened, and what people were thinking/feeling/believing, because he grew up with the likes of that.

Indeed, there was a lot of variety in mediaeval Catholicism that was pruned away during the Counter-Reformation, but I defy you to quote any &quot;pre-Vatican I&quot; source that says in effect that differing perspectives on baptism, or communion, or the nature of the priesthood, are all acceptable local options, whether or not &quot;rigorism&quot; was in force at that time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fearsome Comrade, I&#8217;m saying that the reformers weren&#8217;t Protestants all their lives <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I&#8217;m saying they grew up as Catholics, with the same background of what was acceptable exegesis as the rest of Western Christendom, and even when (for example) Luther was convinced of the necessity of &#8220;Sola Scriptura&#8221;, he still had the formation of mind that unconsciously moved along the channels of one authoritative (not authortarian!) interpretation derived from the text that would be self-evident to all.</p>
<p>They got a nasty shock when the &#8216;self-evident&#8217; interpretations contradicted one another, and when trying to come to some reconciliation of their views to present a united front against the errors of Rome.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m saying that is why they instinctively looked to the earthly princes as God-delegated authorities to guard and guarantee the new dispensation.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m saying Luther and Calvin, in some ways, were closer to me than to their modern disciplines, purely because they had come out of that mediaeval world.  They may have rejected the veneration of the saints as superstition, but they understood it in a way modern Protestants don&#8217;t, because modern Protestants haven&#8217;t grown up with it and come out of a culture saturated with it.  If Luther could be brought forward in a time machine and witness, for example, the celebrations of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I&#8217;m sure he might denounce it as rank superstition, but he&#8217;d get it; he&#8217;d get why it happened and how it happened, and what people were thinking/feeling/believing, because he grew up with the likes of that.</p>
<p>Indeed, there was a lot of variety in mediaeval Catholicism that was pruned away during the Counter-Reformation, but I defy you to quote any &#8220;pre-Vatican I&#8221; source that says in effect that differing perspectives on baptism, or communion, or the nature of the priesthood, are all acceptable local options, whether or not &#8220;rigorism&#8221; was in force at that time.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff M</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-382465</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-382465</guid>
		<description>Fr. Ernesto,
I am in total agreement with you about the Pascha/Easter controversy.  It is something I first started studying in detail last year and it injured every argument I had ever heard for papal infallibility(and I am not saying that to stir up some other hornet&#039;s nest).  I didn&#039;t know about the summit or proposal in 2000, but I am not surprised that it failed either.  I am comforted by the fact that God isn&#039;t hung up on what day of the year or week we celebrate such things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr. Ernesto,<br />
I am in total agreement with you about the Pascha/Easter controversy.  It is something I first started studying in detail last year and it injured every argument I had ever heard for papal infallibility(and I am not saying that to stir up some other hornet&#8217;s nest).  I didn&#8217;t know about the summit or proposal in 2000, but I am not surprised that it failed either.  I am comforted by the fact that God isn&#8217;t hung up on what day of the year or week we celebrate such things.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Ernesto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/new-covenant-lent/comment-page-2#comment-382437</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Ernesto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2853#comment-382437</guid>
		<description>ROFL, Martha the Eastern Western Jewish controversy over Pascha/Easter is one of the most stupid controversies in Church history. There was a proposal in the year 2000, out of a joint meeting of several parties, which has sadly not been adopted. That proposal was, as shocking as it sounds, to actually do it as Scripture says, to use the actual astronomical vernal equinox and do the first full moon after that at Jerusalem as determined by astronomical observances/calculations. And . . . .

Yep, as has been all too common in history, the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, Oriental Orthodox, Jewish believers only agreed to keep disagreeing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ROFL, Martha the Eastern Western Jewish controversy over Pascha/Easter is one of the most stupid controversies in Church history. There was a proposal in the year 2000, out of a joint meeting of several parties, which has sadly not been adopted. That proposal was, as shocking as it sounds, to actually do it as Scripture says, to use the actual astronomical vernal equinox and do the first full moon after that at Jerusalem as determined by astronomical observances/calculations. And . . . .</p>
<p>Yep, as has been all too common in history, the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, Oriental Orthodox, Jewish believers only agreed to keep disagreeing.</p>
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