Comments on: My Strange Experiences With An Absent Gospel: Scripture Sources (Part 2) http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2 ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:47:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: EricW http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519786 EricW Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:48:04 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519786 Roy Hession? http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/sanctification/thecalvaryroad.pdf Lord, have mercy! Roy Hession? http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/sanctification/thecalvaryroad.pdf

Lord, have mercy!

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519784 Headless Unicorn Guy Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:09:29 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519784 <i>Do Christians fall in and out of Christ based on their godly and ungodly behavior? Is their salvation or in-Christness something that turns on and off like a light switch, depending on what they’re doing or not doing?</i> They do according to the guy who wrote that tract <i>The Calvary Road</i>. Talk about crazy-making... Do Christians fall in and out of Christ based on their godly and ungodly behavior? Is their salvation or in-Christness something that turns on and off like a light switch, depending on what they’re doing or not doing?

They do according to the guy who wrote that tract The Calvary Road. Talk about crazy-making…

]]> By: Bror Erickson http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519667 Bror Erickson Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:11:14 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519667 It isn't just the EO that suffer that disease. I get it from all directions. "You can't preach that! It's just too easy. Your congregation will be encouraged to sin. Justification by faith alone?!" I get it from the mormons, from the Catholics, from the Baptists, pentecostals, EO, and Jw's who are all busy arguing with eachother, over how much they have to do, and perhaps whether it applies to justification, or sanctification, but they all assure me they need to do something to be saved, and if I preach what I do my congregation will be full of sinners. And I praise God that my congregation is full of sinners, and pray for more to come! I find though that my congregation is not unique for the presence of sinners. But it warms my heart no end when I hear them confess that their sins are forgiven, that is confess the gospel. At that point I know I have done my job right by them. And though they are a bunch of sinners, who know the gospel well, I marvel at how willing they are to serve their neighbors, and show them the love of God. It's amazing, I don't even have to use law on these people. I say we should donate to the food bank, or the pregnancy resource center, and they do! They do so knowing it has nothing to do with their salvation. Amazing people. See the problem is you can't live and bask in the light of Christ if you don't know it. I don't know how you would ever "behave the gospel" or "live out the gospel." But you can't love your neighbor as yourself, or as Christ has loved you, if you don't know that Christ loves you. If you haven't been touched by the love of Christ, that is the complete forgiveness of sins, then you can't really love at all. "we love because Christ first love us." Everyone is worried about deead faith, they should be worried about dead works. Preach the gospel! I believe that is the admonition. It isn’t just the EO that suffer that disease. I get it from all directions. “You can’t preach that! It’s just too easy. Your congregation will be encouraged to sin. Justification by faith alone?!”
I get it from the mormons, from the Catholics, from the Baptists, pentecostals, EO, and Jw’s who are all busy arguing with eachother, over how much they have to do, and perhaps whether it applies to justification, or sanctification, but they all assure me they need to do something to be saved, and if I preach what I do my congregation will be full of sinners.
And I praise God that my congregation is full of sinners, and pray for more to come! I find though that my congregation is not unique for the presence of sinners. But it warms my heart no end when I hear them confess that their sins are forgiven, that is confess the gospel. At that point I know I have done my job right by them. And though they are a bunch of sinners, who know the gospel well, I marvel at how willing they are to serve their neighbors, and show them the love of God. It’s amazing, I don’t even have to use law on these people. I say we should donate to the food bank, or the pregnancy resource center, and they do! They do so knowing it has nothing to do with their salvation. Amazing people.
See the problem is you can’t live and bask in the light of Christ if you don’t know it. I don’t know how you would ever “behave the gospel” or “live out the gospel.” But you can’t love your neighbor as yourself, or as Christ has loved you, if you don’t know that Christ loves you. If you haven’t been touched by the love of Christ, that is the complete forgiveness of sins, then you can’t really love at all. “we love because Christ first love us.” Everyone is worried about deead faith, they should be worried about dead works. Preach the gospel! I believe that is the admonition.

]]> By: Brigitte http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519663 Brigitte Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:02:57 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519663 From Eric's link: "the holy Church calls upon us to make a commemoration on this Saturday, that the saving grace of the Holy Spirit wash away the sins from the souls of all our forefathers, fathers and brethren, that have reposed throughout the ages." Do we have anything in the Bible that tells the church to pray for the departed so that the Holy Spirit will wash away sins of the forefathers? No we do not. Is that the Gospel announcement? No it is not. Rather it is contrary to it. Does the Spirit wash away sins or the blood of the lamb, the bitter suffering and death of Jesus Christ? Is He enough? Which will we rely on? Which will we believe in? This constant mention of the Christian life that everyone wants to see in himself and others reminds me of something in C.S. Lewis. Yes, we want to do God's will and we want to see others doing it, too, but we must guard against despair and hypocrisy. Senior devil writes to junior devil (Screwtape letters, #2): "I have been writing hitherto on the assumption that the people in the next pew afford no "rational" ground for disappointment. Of course if they do---if the patient knows that the woman with the absurd hat is a fanatical bridge player or the man with squeaky boots a miser and an extortioner--then your task is so much the easier. All you then have to do is to keep out of his mind the question 'If I, being what I am, consider that I am in some sense a Christian, why should the different vices of those people in the next pew prove that their religion is mere hypocrisy and convention?' You may ask whether it is possible to keep such an obvious thought from occurring even to a human mind. It is, Wormwood, it is! Handle him properly and it simply won't come into his head. He has not been anything like long enough with the Enemy to have any real humility yet. What he says, even on his knees, about his own sinfulness is all parrot talk. At bottom, he still believes he has run up a very favorable credit-balance in the Enemy's ledger by allowing himself to be converted, and thinks that he is showing great humility and condescension in going to church with these 'smug' commonplace neighbours at all. Keep him in that state of mind as long as you can." From Eric’s link:
“the holy Church calls upon us to make a commemoration on this Saturday, that the saving grace of the Holy Spirit wash away the sins from the souls of all our forefathers, fathers and brethren, that have reposed throughout the ages.”

Do we have anything in the Bible that tells the church to pray for the departed so that the Holy Spirit will wash away sins of the forefathers? No we do not. Is that the Gospel announcement? No it is not. Rather it is contrary to it. Does the Spirit wash away sins or the blood of the lamb, the bitter suffering and death of Jesus Christ? Is He enough? Which will we rely on? Which will we believe in?

This constant mention of the Christian life that everyone wants to see in himself and others reminds me of something in C.S. Lewis. Yes, we want to do God’s will and we want to see others doing it, too, but we must guard against despair and hypocrisy.

Senior devil writes to junior devil (Screwtape letters, #2):

“I have been writing hitherto on the assumption that the people in the next pew afford no “rational” ground for disappointment. Of course if they do—if the patient knows that the woman with the absurd hat is a fanatical bridge player or the man with squeaky boots a miser and an extortioner–then your task is so much the easier. All you then have to do is to keep out of his mind the question ‘If I, being what I am, consider that I am in some sense a Christian, why should the different vices of those people in the next pew prove that their religion is mere hypocrisy and convention?’ You may ask whether it is possible to keep such an obvious thought from occurring even to a human mind. It is, Wormwood, it is! Handle him properly and it simply won’t come into his head. He has not been anything like long enough with the Enemy to have any real humility yet. What he says, even on his knees, about his own sinfulness is all parrot talk. At bottom, he still believes he has run up a very favorable credit-balance in the Enemy’s ledger by allowing himself to be converted, and thinks that he is showing great humility and condescension in going to church with these ‘smug’ commonplace neighbours at all. Keep him in that state of mind as long as you can.”

]]> By: EricW http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519660 EricW Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:19:11 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519660 Sorry for the triple treat! My browser went into suspended animation, so I reclicked on the Submit button. :) Sorry for the triple treat! My browser went into suspended animation, so I reclicked on the Submit button. :)

]]> By: EricW http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519657 EricW Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:58:25 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519657 Bror Erickson: The [Eastern] Orthodox Church does not seem to have a place for assurance of salvation. I.e., one never knows even at the time of one's death if one is going to be with the Lord. And the Church continues to offer prayers for the departed to enhance their (hoped for) theosis and purification after death. Some believe in a series of "toll booths" that the dead must pass through after death. See, e.g.: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx One's salvation is tied in with one's works/deeds/behavior. I guess that's "Good News," but when under the Old Covenant the act of committing adultery was a condemning sin, but under the New Covenant simply the desire to commit adultery is a condemning sin, I'm not sure how trying to conform to the seemingly-stricter commands of the New Covenant is "Better News" than living under the Old Covenant. YMMV. Bror Erickson:

The [Eastern] Orthodox Church does not seem to have a place for assurance of salvation. I.e., one never knows even at the time of one’s death if one is going to be with the Lord. And the Church continues to offer prayers for the departed to enhance their (hoped for) theosis and purification after death. Some believe in a series of “toll booths” that the dead must pass through after death. See, e.g.: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

One’s salvation is tied in with one’s works/deeds/behavior. I guess that’s “Good News,” but when under the Old Covenant the act of committing adultery was a condemning sin, but under the New Covenant simply the desire to commit adultery is a condemning sin, I’m not sure how trying to conform to the seemingly-stricter commands of the New Covenant is “Better News” than living under the Old Covenant. YMMV.

]]> By: EricW http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519658 EricW Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:58:25 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519658 Bror Erickson: The [Eastern] Orthodox Church does not seem to have a place for assurance of salvation. I.e., one never knows even at the time of one's death if one is going to be with the Lord. And the Church continues to offer prayers for the departed to enhance their (hoped for) theosis and purification after death. Some believe in a series of "toll booths" that the dead must pass through after death. See, e.g.: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx One's salvation is tied in with one's works/deeds/behavior. I guess that's "Good News," but when under the Old Covenant the act of committing adultery was a condemning sin, but under the New Covenant simply the desire to commit adultery is a condemning sin, I'm not sure how trying to conform to the seemingly-stricter commands of the New Covenant is "Better News" than living under the Old Covenant. YMMV. Bror Erickson:

The [Eastern] Orthodox Church does not seem to have a place for assurance of salvation. I.e., one never knows even at the time of one’s death if one is going to be with the Lord. And the Church continues to offer prayers for the departed to enhance their (hoped for) theosis and purification after death. Some believe in a series of “toll booths” that the dead must pass through after death. See, e.g.: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

One’s salvation is tied in with one’s works/deeds/behavior. I guess that’s “Good News,” but when under the Old Covenant the act of committing adultery was a condemning sin, but under the New Covenant simply the desire to commit adultery is a condemning sin, I’m not sure how trying to conform to the seemingly-stricter commands of the New Covenant is “Better News” than living under the Old Covenant. YMMV.

]]> By: EricW http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519656 EricW Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:57:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519656 Bror Erickson: The [Eastern] Orthodox Church does not seem to have a place for assurance of salvation. I.e., one never knows even at the time of one's death if one is going to be with the Lord. And the Church continues to offer prayers for the departed to enhance their (hoped for) theosis and purification after death. Some believe in a series of "toll booths" that the dead must pass through after death. See, e.g.: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx One's salvation is tied in with one's works/deeds/behavior. I guess that's "Good News," but when under the Old Covenant the act of committing adultery was a condemning sin, but under the New Covenant simply the desire to commit adultery is a condemning sin, I'm not sure how trying to conform to the seemingly-stricter commands of the New Covenant is "Better News" than living under the Old Covenant. YMMV. Bror Erickson:

The [Eastern] Orthodox Church does not seem to have a place for assurance of salvation. I.e., one never knows even at the time of one’s death if one is going to be with the Lord. And the Church continues to offer prayers for the departed to enhance their (hoped for) theosis and purification after death. Some believe in a series of “toll booths” that the dead must pass through after death. See, e.g.: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

One’s salvation is tied in with one’s works/deeds/behavior. I guess that’s “Good News,” but when under the Old Covenant the act of committing adultery was a condemning sin, but under the New Covenant simply the desire to commit adultery is a condemning sin, I’m not sure how trying to conform to the seemingly-stricter commands of the New Covenant is “Better News” than living under the Old Covenant. YMMV.

]]> By: Bror Erickson http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519655 Bror Erickson Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:30:59 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519655 Eric, thanks for that! Eric,
thanks for that!

]]> By: Bror Erickson http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-scripture-sources-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-519654 Bror Erickson Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:30:22 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5087#comment-519654 Fr. Ernesto, You still have not defined Gospel! Nor have you used scripture, except for Saint James which no one is really certain should even be in the cannon, but never the less you twist his words with a pitiful understanding of the Greek. And then you cite John Calvin?!! Exactly why? Do you think that is some common ground we might have? I despise the doctrine John Calvin, as much as I am beginning to despise the EO doctrine I'm learning under your tutelage. So now agian to be charitable, what do you think the difference between law and gospel is? I don't have a problem believing that a believer will end up bearing fruit. I have a problem believing the Good new is the same old news that has been written on the hearts of men for centuries, restated to say if you have faith then you better give this man your coat, or you don't have faith or the gospel. When Jesus says in Luke 24 that repentance and the forgiveness of sins should be preached to the ends of the earth. I believe I have a responsibility to tell people what they should be doing in love for their neighbor, and then let them know the Gospel, that their failings in that department have been forgiven. But if you have to "live the gospel" to be saved than the gospel is not gospel, it is just repackaged law. What did Chirst do for us on the cross again? Fr. Ernesto,
You still have not defined Gospel! Nor have you used scripture, except for Saint James which no one is really certain should even be in the cannon, but never the less you twist his words with a pitiful understanding of the Greek. And then you cite John Calvin?!!
Exactly why? Do you think that is some common ground we might have? I despise the doctrine John Calvin, as much as I am beginning to despise the EO doctrine I’m learning under your tutelage.
So now agian to be charitable, what do you think the difference between law and gospel is? I don’t have a problem believing that a believer will end up bearing fruit. I have a problem believing the Good new is the same old news that has been written on the hearts of men for centuries, restated to say if you have faith then you better give this man your coat, or you don’t have faith or the gospel. When Jesus says in Luke 24 that repentance and the forgiveness of sins should be preached to the ends of the earth. I believe I have a responsibility to tell people what they should be doing in love for their neighbor, and then let them know the Gospel, that their failings in that department have been forgiven.
But if you have to “live the gospel” to be saved than the gospel is not gospel, it is just repackaged law. What did Chirst do for us on the cross again?

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