Comments on: My Strange Experiences With An Absent Gospel (Part 4): How It Feels In The Strangeness http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:44:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Z. J. Kendall http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-520381 Z. J. Kendall Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:25:51 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-520381 "Book your own funeral preacher now and get someone who will preach the Gospel." Nice. “Book your own funeral preacher now and get someone who will preach the Gospel.”
Nice.

]]> By: cfguy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-520322 cfguy Sun, 29 Nov 2009 21:01:32 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-520322 Just a very helpful post for me right now. Thanks. Just a very helpful post for me right now. Thanks.

]]> By: Duke Clarke http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-520133 Duke Clarke Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:17:46 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-520133 I totally agree with your post about the message of Christ so I read your broader work "On Christless Preaching" and felt like I was kicked in the stomach. Why? My Grandfather was a Methodist Minister trained at Duke University so clearly "well educated", my material Grandfather was a Civil War Chaplain train at a Seminar in Richmond VA (they sent me a sermon they had on file). So maybe it's genes or maybe it's enviroment but in College I was totally taken by the "Jesus Movement" and wanted to preach the living Gospel. But every "educated Minister" I heard and met was dead, dry, numb and so fossilized I never wanted "formal" training. So according to you that makes me uneducated and ill equiped to minister. I have taught, ministered and served God for 40 years now and as Roman says (if I may be so bold as to quote scripture) before my own master I stand or fall. So while I agree that Christ is the central message I don't agree that I needed to be formally molded by religious denominational bias in order to do my job before God. I totally agree with your post about the message of Christ so I read your broader work “On Christless Preaching” and felt like I was kicked in the stomach. Why? My Grandfather was a Methodist Minister trained at Duke University so clearly “well educated”, my material Grandfather was a Civil War Chaplain train at a Seminar in Richmond VA (they sent me a sermon they had on file). So maybe it’s genes or maybe it’s enviroment but in College I was totally taken by the “Jesus Movement” and wanted to preach the living Gospel.

But every “educated Minister” I heard and met was dead, dry, numb and so fossilized I never wanted “formal” training. So according to you that makes me uneducated and ill equiped to minister. I have taught, ministered and served God for 40 years now and as Roman says (if I may be so bold as to quote scripture) before my own master I stand or fall.

So while I agree that Christ is the central message I don’t agree that I needed to be formally molded by religious denominational bias in order to do my job before God.

]]> By: Mich http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-519987 Mich Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:45:16 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-519987 iMonk, You're preaching to the Choir with Me! You, Steve Brown, N.T. Wright and Dr Rosenbladt have been like a long cool drink of God's grace to this sinner. Now, regarding what you're saying, I have found myself speaking up more--ie when the sermon has had no mention of the Gospel. But I think it all comes back faith in Christ Jesus. Folks answer an alter call, then sit in Church on Sunday and that's the extent of their exposure to the Gospel and the Bible. Furthermore, to oversimplify and generalize some more!---if you disagree with the Preacher or the theology he's preaching you're labeled a heretic or worse a "liberal." All I know is desperately need God's grace and I need to hear the Gospel preached. But when I need answers or have questions I tend to look online where body of Christ is more forgiving and open and compassionate. Peace. iMonk,
You’re preaching to the Choir with Me! You, Steve Brown, N.T. Wright and Dr Rosenbladt have been like a long cool drink of God’s grace to this sinner. Now, regarding what you’re saying, I have found myself speaking up more–ie when the sermon has had no mention of the Gospel. But I think it all comes back faith in Christ Jesus. Folks answer an alter call, then sit in Church on Sunday and that’s the extent of their exposure to the Gospel and the Bible. Furthermore, to oversimplify and generalize some more!—if you disagree with the Preacher or the theology he’s preaching you’re labeled a heretic or worse a “liberal.” All I know is desperately need God’s grace and I need to hear the Gospel preached. But when I need answers or have questions I tend to look online where body of Christ is more forgiving and open and compassionate.

Peace.

]]> By: Just for Quix http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-519901 Just for Quix Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:42:43 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-519901 Great point. Teaching from Ephesians is a classic example where Evangelicals often don't go far enough to trust God in performing His work of salvation. (And such preachers shortchange Believers by not to trusting them with the big picture of God's intent.) Preaching the gospel from chapter 2, for example, often stops at verse 9. In the intent of being "seeker friendly," or out of fear of preaching works righteousness so many seem to be afraid to teach WHY Christ saves us by grace while yet in our sins: So that the good works we do thereafter can be the works He has ordained us to do -- not those we might reason and choose for ourselves as meriting us righteousness (v10). Yet, to the chagrin of those afraid to talk about works, His intent is for us to do good works HE has chosen for us. Jesus saves us so that we may have close communion with Him now the old temple veil has been torn (v13-14) instead of one mediated by tradition or a priestly class. He saves us so that individuals and communities of faith can be reconstructed, covenant rebooted, and ordinances changed so those who are already familiar to Godly ways may be brought together anew with those who have been alien to Him (v15-18). He saves us so a new body of unity is built where the corner of the foundation is Christ -- not our traditions, not our individualism, not our comfortable preferences, but Christ (v19-20) and His word. He saves us so that we would not just be saved by a prayer of confession but fashioned into a new temple that will endure as a place for God to exist in our presence (v21-22). Christ didn't save us just to give us an individual gift. It's bigger than that. He has a work He's doing and is making us God's Sons and Daughters in order to redeem the world. To stop the teaching of the gospel message, in this case, at Ephesians 2:9 is to keep salvation focused on our individual benefit instead of the bigger picture of God's work. Great point. Teaching from Ephesians is a classic example where Evangelicals often don’t go far enough to trust God in performing His work of salvation. (And such preachers shortchange Believers by not to trusting them with the big picture of God’s intent.)

Preaching the gospel from chapter 2, for example, often stops at verse 9. In the intent of being “seeker friendly,” or out of fear of preaching works righteousness so many seem to be afraid to teach WHY Christ saves us by grace while yet in our sins: So that the good works we do thereafter can be the works He has ordained us to do — not those we might reason and choose for ourselves as meriting us righteousness (v10). Yet, to the chagrin of those afraid to talk about works, His intent is for us to do good works HE has chosen for us.

Jesus saves us so that we may have close communion with Him now the old temple veil has been torn (v13-14) instead of one mediated by tradition or a priestly class. He saves us so that individuals and communities of faith can be reconstructed, covenant rebooted, and ordinances changed so those who are already familiar to Godly ways may be brought together anew with those who have been alien to Him (v15-18). He saves us so a new body of unity is built where the corner of the foundation is Christ — not our traditions, not our individualism, not our comfortable preferences, but Christ (v19-20) and His word. He saves us so that we would not just be saved by a prayer of confession but fashioned into a new temple that will endure as a place for God to exist in our presence (v21-22).

Christ didn’t save us just to give us an individual gift. It’s bigger than that. He has a work He’s doing and is making us God’s Sons and Daughters in order to redeem the world. To stop the teaching of the gospel message, in this case, at Ephesians 2:9 is to keep salvation focused on our individual benefit instead of the bigger picture of God’s work.

]]> By: Debbie http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-519816 Debbie Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:21:02 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-519816 I'm sorry for your tragic loss, Jennet. Thank you for sharing your story. I’m sorry for your tragic loss, Jennet. Thank you for sharing your story.

]]> By: ATChaffee http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-519797 ATChaffee Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:43:11 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-519797 I was involved in planning a wedding where the young preacher wanted to do a sermon on how a good marriage really needs God and Christian principles or it won't work. Which is fine, except that both sets of parents were unbelievers who had (apparently) been happily married for longer than the preacher had been alive. I was involved in planning a wedding where the young preacher wanted to do a sermon on how a good marriage really needs God and Christian principles or it won’t work. Which is fine, except that both sets of parents were unbelievers who had (apparently) been happily married for longer than the preacher had been alive.

]]> By: John http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-519793 John Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:03:01 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-519793 I second that. Well articulated. The one-time event/belief/proposition view of salvation not only works against ongoing transformation, but also against an openness to the radical nature of the gospel and the idea that we might have to not just do something different but be someone different as God works in and through us. In other words, Jesus the revolutionary and transformer of hearts with a message that can turn the world upside down through us is instead tamed and made to accommodate our small and meagre world. Even in my own church, which does a good job of preaching Jesus and the gospel, this idea of transformation, of new identity and what that means, is sometimes missed. We're finishing up a series on Ephesians and I keep thinking that in the first chapter Paul is really spelling out for the Ephesians what their new identity in Christ is and means, and the rest of the book seems to flow from and build on this, but I've not heard this brought out in the series. Sigh. I second that. Well articulated. The one-time event/belief/proposition view of salvation not only works against ongoing transformation, but also against an openness to the radical nature of the gospel and the idea that we might have to not just do something different but be someone different as God works in and through us. In other words, Jesus the revolutionary and transformer of hearts with a message that can turn the world upside down through us is instead tamed and made to accommodate our small and meagre world.

Even in my own church, which does a good job of preaching Jesus and the gospel, this idea of transformation, of new identity and what that means, is sometimes missed. We’re finishing up a series on Ephesians and I keep thinking that in the first chapter Paul is really spelling out for the Ephesians what their new identity in Christ is and means, and the rest of the book seems to flow from and build on this, but I’ve not heard this brought out in the series. Sigh.

]]> By: greg r http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-519759 greg r Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:51:05 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-519759 wow, that is one GREAT explanation: THANKS. I think you are spot on with connecting the dots between the gospel we preach (or don't) and how we (mis) understand salvation. Very well said. wow, that is one GREAT explanation: THANKS. I think you are spot on with connecting the dots between the gospel we preach (or don’t) and how we (mis) understand salvation. Very well said.

]]> By: Jeff M http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/my-strange-experiences-with-an-absent-gospel-part-4-how-it-feels-in-the-strangeness/comment-page-1#comment-519744 Jeff M Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:15:49 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5099#comment-519744 David, I just went to a conference a couple of weeks ago in Montana and heard a guy named Jim Putman speak about his church in Idaho. He has a book that was just published last year which tells their story that is called, <i>Church is a Team Sport</i>, and I think you might see some answers to some of your questions in it. In short, their church has grown through small group discipleship that trains/disciples believers to the point that they become shepherds of groups of people in the church. It is fascinating to me to note that they have around 90 staff members after 10 years and all but two or so of those staff have been raised up from within the church to lead and shepherd. The key is in taking the focus off of the "show" and putting in into the work we have been called to do, making disciples. David,
I just went to a conference a couple of weeks ago in Montana and heard a guy named Jim Putman speak about his church in Idaho. He has a book that was just published last year which tells their story that is called, Church is a Team Sport, and I think you might see some answers to some of your questions in it.
In short, their church has grown through small group discipleship that trains/disciples believers to the point that they become shepherds of groups of people in the church. It is fascinating to me to note that they have around 90 staff members after 10 years and all but two or so of those staff have been raised up from within the church to lead and shepherd. The key is in taking the focus off of the “show” and putting in into the work we have been called to do, making disciples.

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