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	<title>Comments on: More Links and News: A New Sponsor and Bill Kinnon Unedited</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Lake</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-332234</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 06:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-332234</guid>
		<description>Steve in Toronto,

I&#039;m not sure that the de-emphasis of the sermon, in favor of the Lord&#039;s Supper, is the answer to the current wave of &quot;preaching hero worship.&quot;  Certainly, the Lord&#039;s Supper should not be downplayed and/or done rarely in the life of the local church.  When that is the case, it is to the church&#039;s impoverishment.  

However, I *have* seen the sermon retain its place of centrality in the worship service of a local church without that church moving toward a near-idolatry of the preacher.  This was accomplished through implementing a model of church government which included a plurality of elders-- and then regularly rotating the Sunday morning preaching of those elders, to the point that the preaching in the church was not &quot;built&quot; around one man but the Word of God alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve in Toronto,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that the de-emphasis of the sermon, in favor of the Lord&#8217;s Supper, is the answer to the current wave of &#8220;preaching hero worship.&#8221;  Certainly, the Lord&#8217;s Supper should not be downplayed and/or done rarely in the life of the local church.  When that is the case, it is to the church&#8217;s impoverishment.  </p>
<p>However, I *have* seen the sermon retain its place of centrality in the worship service of a local church without that church moving toward a near-idolatry of the preacher.  This was accomplished through implementing a model of church government which included a plurality of elders&#8211; and then regularly rotating the Sunday morning preaching of those elders, to the point that the preaching in the church was not &#8220;built&#8221; around one man but the Word of God alone.</p>
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		<title>By: iMonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-332027</link>
		<dc:creator>iMonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-332027</guid>
		<description>Steve in Toronto has hit an absolute dead on 420 shot over the center field fence. So he&#039;s not a Blue Jay, but he is so right. I&#039;m taking it to the BHT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve in Toronto has hit an absolute dead on 420 shot over the center field fence. So he&#8217;s not a Blue Jay, but he is so right. I&#8217;m taking it to the BHT.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve in Toronto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-331989</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve in Toronto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-331989</guid>
		<description>I am afraid that the large Church built around the model of a Charismatic Preacher was the inevitable result of evangelical Protestants de-emphasis of the Sacrament of Holy Communion in favor of the sermon.  Unless we see a much more holistic understanding of worship return to the Evangelical church we will continue to see large churches faltering and even falling as this current generation of “Alpha Male” Preachers passes from the seen.  One of the advantages of an Episcopal system of church governance is that that you can make men like Bruxy and Tim Keller Bishops.  That way you can leverage their (very real) gifts to benefit more than just a single congregation.  To be fair to Tim Keller he is is doing everything humanly possible to prevent redeemer from becoming just another mega church (I especially admire the work he is doing to promote church planting.  His support for non- Presbyterian churches is especially admirable).  I am much more skeptical of the Multi site video dependent model promoted by Bruxy and the meeting house.

God Bless

Steve in Toronto</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am afraid that the large Church built around the model of a Charismatic Preacher was the inevitable result of evangelical Protestants de-emphasis of the Sacrament of Holy Communion in favor of the sermon.  Unless we see a much more holistic understanding of worship return to the Evangelical church we will continue to see large churches faltering and even falling as this current generation of “Alpha Male” Preachers passes from the seen.  One of the advantages of an Episcopal system of church governance is that that you can make men like Bruxy and Tim Keller Bishops.  That way you can leverage their (very real) gifts to benefit more than just a single congregation.  To be fair to Tim Keller he is is doing everything humanly possible to prevent redeemer from becoming just another mega church (I especially admire the work he is doing to promote church planting.  His support for non- Presbyterian churches is especially admirable).  I am much more skeptical of the Multi site video dependent model promoted by Bruxy and the meeting house.</p>
<p>God Bless</p>
<p>Steve in Toronto</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Lake</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-331910</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 07:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-331910</guid>
		<description>Even in my medium-size, non-denominational, Reformed-leaning church that has a plurality of elders (no &quot;senior pastor&quot; model there), less people still do tend to show up when the &quot;main preaching elder&quot; is absent... and he isn&#039;t even very well-known (as Keller, Piper, Driscoll, and others are)!  

I get frustrated about this tendency, because the Word is still the Word, if it is being preached faithfully, regardless of the &quot;status&quot; of the preacher.  At the same time, I have to be patient with people in my church, because I know all too well about my own lack of Christian growth and maturity in certain areas of *my* life...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even in my medium-size, non-denominational, Reformed-leaning church that has a plurality of elders (no &#8220;senior pastor&#8221; model there), less people still do tend to show up when the &#8220;main preaching elder&#8221; is absent&#8230; and he isn&#8217;t even very well-known (as Keller, Piper, Driscoll, and others are)!  </p>
<p>I get frustrated about this tendency, because the Word is still the Word, if it is being preached faithfully, regardless of the &#8220;status&#8221; of the preacher.  At the same time, I have to be patient with people in my church, because I know all too well about my own lack of Christian growth and maturity in certain areas of *my* life&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mack Ramer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-331868</link>
		<dc:creator>Mack Ramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 04:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-331868</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Priestblock&lt;/i&gt; is good, and also good in the same vein is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Father-Arseny-1893-1973-Narratives-Concerning/dp/0881411809&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fr. Arseny&lt;/a&gt;, about an Orthodox priest who survived Stalin&#039;s gulags, literally miraculously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Priestblock</i> is good, and also good in the same vein is <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Father-Arseny-1893-1973-Narratives-Concerning/dp/0881411809" rel="nofollow">Fr. Arseny</a>, about an Orthodox priest who survived Stalin&#8217;s gulags, literally miraculously.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-331867</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 04:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-331867</guid>
		<description>Agree with DaveMc in that people are starved for something, maybe something that is just hard to find.  I think there is a vast difference between good teaching and a good show.  Good teaching that is saturated with Christ and the gospel...well, love covers over a multitude of sins.  A good show simply has not much to offer if anything.   So is it the man or the congregation who places him there?  I guess both.  A doctor in my family once responded to a woman who asked when doctors would stop acting like they are God.  He said when people stop treating us like gods. 

I have my share of man-idols (Keller being one of them).  I know, I repent.  My dad is another one of them.  I don&#039;t know much about models of effective ministry, but it is probably important to hear from the top the line, what is wrong with the world?  I am, and hear it often.

But I will still jump at good teaching when I find it or recognize it.  It seems to be a rare commodity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with DaveMc in that people are starved for something, maybe something that is just hard to find.  I think there is a vast difference between good teaching and a good show.  Good teaching that is saturated with Christ and the gospel&#8230;well, love covers over a multitude of sins.  A good show simply has not much to offer if anything.   So is it the man or the congregation who places him there?  I guess both.  A doctor in my family once responded to a woman who asked when doctors would stop acting like they are God.  He said when people stop treating us like gods. </p>
<p>I have my share of man-idols (Keller being one of them).  I know, I repent.  My dad is another one of them.  I don&#8217;t know much about models of effective ministry, but it is probably important to hear from the top the line, what is wrong with the world?  I am, and hear it often.</p>
<p>But I will still jump at good teaching when I find it or recognize it.  It seems to be a rare commodity.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Herring</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-331779</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Herring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-331779</guid>
		<description>Sir,

I have read Mr. Kinnon&#039;s post as well, and I am in full agreement in regard to the &#039;hero worship&#039; of pastors.  I would like to add a personal perspective.  My father, a retired pastor, provided a great model for me in humbly loving and serving the congregations he was called to pastor.  But even humble, gracious pastors of non-mega churches can fall prey to the desire of wanting to be wanted, of allowing themselves to occupy a position of honor that may be unsought or even gratefully offered but draws attention away from the leadership of the Holy Spirit nonetheless.  The Spirit constantly convicts me of how proud I am of my humility.  So to your readers I would ask that they pray for their pastors to be able to withstand the temptation of a consumerist, celebrity obsessed culture that too often creeps into a congregation, looking to make golden calves of the earthen jars who in their hearts have a genuine desire to love God humbly and serve His people sincerely.

Yours,
Lee</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sir,</p>
<p>I have read Mr. Kinnon&#8217;s post as well, and I am in full agreement in regard to the &#8216;hero worship&#8217; of pastors.  I would like to add a personal perspective.  My father, a retired pastor, provided a great model for me in humbly loving and serving the congregations he was called to pastor.  But even humble, gracious pastors of non-mega churches can fall prey to the desire of wanting to be wanted, of allowing themselves to occupy a position of honor that may be unsought or even gratefully offered but draws attention away from the leadership of the Holy Spirit nonetheless.  The Spirit constantly convicts me of how proud I am of my humility.  So to your readers I would ask that they pray for their pastors to be able to withstand the temptation of a consumerist, celebrity obsessed culture that too often creeps into a congregation, looking to make golden calves of the earthen jars who in their hearts have a genuine desire to love God humbly and serve His people sincerely.</p>
<p>Yours,<br />
Lee</p>
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		<title>By: DaveMc</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-331770</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveMc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-331770</guid>
		<description>Could we have an IM self-rating on Andy Rowell&#039;s Ecclesiological Spectrum?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could we have an IM self-rating on Andy Rowell&#8217;s Ecclesiological Spectrum?</p>
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		<title>By: K.W. Leslie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-331767</link>
		<dc:creator>K.W. Leslie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-331767</guid>
		<description>I like the Liturgical Gangstas as is. The other perspectives are, I think, very well represented by your audience. ....[Mod edited]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the Liturgical Gangstas as is. The other perspectives are, I think, very well represented by your audience. &#8230;.[Mod edited]</p>
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		<title>By: DaveMc</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/more-links-and-news-a-new-sponsor-and-bill-kinnon-unedited/comment-page-1#comment-331766</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveMc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2616#comment-331766</guid>
		<description>The problem is real, but what do you do?  People are starving for something, whether it be solid Bible teaching or something to make them feel better.  Do you cap the numbers?  Should pastors get out of the pulpit for a month?  

In my short life, I&#039;ve seen one pastor implode and one simply step away over this issue. Great teachers, one Sunday they had 35, next Sunday they had 500.  People came to get fed.  Those churches are now stabilized but inert as the &quot;guns&quot; ran off to the next teacher.

I guess my question is:  What do you do about sudden growth because of personal popularity (be it good teaching or a good show) in the real world?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is real, but what do you do?  People are starving for something, whether it be solid Bible teaching or something to make them feel better.  Do you cap the numbers?  Should pastors get out of the pulpit for a month?  </p>
<p>In my short life, I&#8217;ve seen one pastor implode and one simply step away over this issue. Great teachers, one Sunday they had 35, next Sunday they had 500.  People came to get fed.  Those churches are now stabilized but inert as the &#8220;guns&#8221; ran off to the next teacher.</p>
<p>I guess my question is:  What do you do about sudden growth because of personal popularity (be it good teaching or a good show) in the real world?</p>
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