<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Mohler and Moore on Southern Baptists, Southern Seminary and Alcohol: A meandering response to the forum</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:36:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-98127</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-98127</guid>
		<description>GL
  As a PCA pastor, I find your insight of great encouragement! I was able to walk away from a legalistic background...

One of the best books on the subject of grace, if you haven&#039;t read it, is &quot;Transforming Grace,&quot; by Jerry Bridges. If all my SBC friends would read and apply the truths in that book....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GL<br />
  As a PCA pastor, I find your insight of great encouragement! I was able to walk away from a legalistic background&#8230;</p>
<p>One of the best books on the subject of grace, if you haven&#8217;t read it, is &#8220;Transforming Grace,&#8221; by Jerry Bridges. If all my SBC friends would read and apply the truths in that book&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: iMonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4046</link>
		<dc:creator>iMonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4046</guid>
		<description>BHT fellow Josh Strodtbeck (LCMS) said this:

Beer is about as old as wine.

I think what Mohler is labelling as immature bloggery is partially due to a resurgence of interest in the Reformation period as such as opposed to the later movements that somehow gave rise to the Baptists. Part of that is learning about the culture in which the Reformation thrived and which it later shaped--and the fact is that taverns, vineyards, wineries, pubs, and breweries were a big part of that culture. And then you have people who are more engaged with today...and neither kind of person is particularly interested in maintaining this bizarre historical aberration of teetotalism.

After all, even Puritans had brandy, beer, gin, and wine at the first Thanksgiving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BHT fellow Josh Strodtbeck (LCMS) said this:</p>
<p>Beer is about as old as wine.</p>
<p>I think what Mohler is labelling as immature bloggery is partially due to a resurgence of interest in the Reformation period as such as opposed to the later movements that somehow gave rise to the Baptists. Part of that is learning about the culture in which the Reformation thrived and which it later shaped&#8211;and the fact is that taverns, vineyards, wineries, pubs, and breweries were a big part of that culture. And then you have people who are more engaged with today&#8230;and neither kind of person is particularly interested in maintaining this bizarre historical aberration of teetotalism.</p>
<p>After all, even Puritans had brandy, beer, gin, and wine at the first Thanksgiving.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sled dog</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4047</link>
		<dc:creator>sled dog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4047</guid>
		<description>Hey, I just got in on this discussion over at Reformissionary today!  Monk, as always a good essay.  I to am glad that the issue is being talked about.

I HAVE come across a lot of immaturity from believers on this issue.  This is what alarms me: a sort of, &quot;Hey we&#039;re free in Christ, so let&#039;s steamroll everyone else who&#039;s got a different perspective&quot; attitude that I&#039;ve witnessed.  It&#039;s like those overly-sheltered Christian kids who finally get out of the house and go a bit wild trying to catch up for all those years of being held back.  

I feel like my role in the conversation will be as one acknowledging every person&#039;s freedom in Christ, but encouraging those same individuals to use that freedom wisely.  

Interesting, I&#039;m preaching John 2 in a couple of weeks (wedding at Cana) and alcohol will definitely be a part of that message.  What a challenge to purely present God&#039;s heart on the matter!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, I just got in on this discussion over at Reformissionary today!  Monk, as always a good essay.  I to am glad that the issue is being talked about.</p>
<p>I HAVE come across a lot of immaturity from believers on this issue.  This is what alarms me: a sort of, &#8220;Hey we&#8217;re free in Christ, so let&#8217;s steamroll everyone else who&#8217;s got a different perspective&#8221; attitude that I&#8217;ve witnessed.  It&#8217;s like those overly-sheltered Christian kids who finally get out of the house and go a bit wild trying to catch up for all those years of being held back.  </p>
<p>I feel like my role in the conversation will be as one acknowledging every person&#8217;s freedom in Christ, but encouraging those same individuals to use that freedom wisely.  </p>
<p>Interesting, I&#8217;m preaching John 2 in a couple of weeks (wedding at Cana) and alcohol will definitely be a part of that message.  What a challenge to purely present God&#8217;s heart on the matter!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: GL</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4048</link>
		<dc:creator>GL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4048</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have data immediately at hand to support this hunch, but that&#039;s why they call it a hunch. Southern Baptists have historically occupied lower rungs on the socio-economic ladder. But, like many religious groups, SBs have experienced maturation and they are climbing in SES (socioeconomic status). Particularly in suburbs around large cities, many Southern Baptists are affluent, educated and have taken on the dispositions associated with upper middle and upper classes. 

This is why the PCA grows at the expense of Southern Baptists. I hypothosize that you could look at any large Southern town and where you have Baptist megachurches or even large churches (not yet mega), you will have thriving PCA churches that grow and grow from the influx of Baptist refugees. 

Look at RUF, which is in some respects the ministry to Southern Baptists which turns them into Reformed folks. Once they get a taste of the cognitive emphases in RUF (and the Reformed tradition more broadly) and the grace, including the freedom to drink in moderation, these young, affluent, educated Southern Baptists realize they&#039;ve found a new home. It seems nigh impossible to return to preaching that doesn&#039;t include an emphasis on theology, and does emphasize instead altar calls and behavioral legalism. 

The PCA will increasingly benefit if these total abstinence demands are enforced. The class dispositions associated with higher SES fairly determine it. Upper middle and upper class people really dislike gauche, and it&#039;s gauche to be believe in total abstinence in those circles.

Just some hunching from a sociologist. I&#039;m not arguing what Scripture says or what people should do, I&#039;m simply offering a hunch based on my reading of the social aspects of religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have data immediately at hand to support this hunch, but that&#8217;s why they call it a hunch. Southern Baptists have historically occupied lower rungs on the socio-economic ladder. But, like many religious groups, SBs have experienced maturation and they are climbing in SES (socioeconomic status). Particularly in suburbs around large cities, many Southern Baptists are affluent, educated and have taken on the dispositions associated with upper middle and upper classes. </p>
<p>This is why the PCA grows at the expense of Southern Baptists. I hypothosize that you could look at any large Southern town and where you have Baptist megachurches or even large churches (not yet mega), you will have thriving PCA churches that grow and grow from the influx of Baptist refugees. </p>
<p>Look at RUF, which is in some respects the ministry to Southern Baptists which turns them into Reformed folks. Once they get a taste of the cognitive emphases in RUF (and the Reformed tradition more broadly) and the grace, including the freedom to drink in moderation, these young, affluent, educated Southern Baptists realize they&#8217;ve found a new home. It seems nigh impossible to return to preaching that doesn&#8217;t include an emphasis on theology, and does emphasize instead altar calls and behavioral legalism. </p>
<p>The PCA will increasingly benefit if these total abstinence demands are enforced. The class dispositions associated with higher SES fairly determine it. Upper middle and upper class people really dislike gauche, and it&#8217;s gauche to be believe in total abstinence in those circles.</p>
<p>Just some hunching from a sociologist. I&#8217;m not arguing what Scripture says or what people should do, I&#8217;m simply offering a hunch based on my reading of the social aspects of religion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave C.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4049</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4049</guid>
		<description>Three things nailed this for me:

1. Mohler admitted near the beginning that he couldn&#039;t make the case for abstaining from scripture.

2. His comment: &quot;I can assure you of this: if you are associated with the use of beverage alcohol, I think I dare exaggerate not to say that 99% of all doors of ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention will be closed to you.&quot;

So he is apparently advocating throwing out Sola Scriptura (1) and letting tradition rule instead (2). So BIBLICAL TRUTH is no longer the deciding factor on whether a belief is valid or not and 99% of SBC churches aren&#039;t following the Bible. No surprise there.

The final point was his example of attending the mixed denominational luncheon where a Lutheran ordered a beer with his meal. Mohler asking him not to because it might harm Mohler&#039;s reputation if someone saw that is just the final straw. Apparently, he&#039;s more concerned about his reputation than anything else. And, of course, that&#039;s what Jesus would have us do, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three things nailed this for me:</p>
<p>1. Mohler admitted near the beginning that he couldn&#8217;t make the case for abstaining from scripture.</p>
<p>2. His comment: &#8220;I can assure you of this: if you are associated with the use of beverage alcohol, I think I dare exaggerate not to say that 99% of all doors of ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention will be closed to you.&#8221;</p>
<p>So he is apparently advocating throwing out Sola Scriptura (1) and letting tradition rule instead (2). So BIBLICAL TRUTH is no longer the deciding factor on whether a belief is valid or not and 99% of SBC churches aren&#8217;t following the Bible. No surprise there.</p>
<p>The final point was his example of attending the mixed denominational luncheon where a Lutheran ordered a beer with his meal. Mohler asking him not to because it might harm Mohler&#8217;s reputation if someone saw that is just the final straw. Apparently, he&#8217;s more concerned about his reputation than anything else. And, of course, that&#8217;s what Jesus would have us do, right?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rasselas</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4050</link>
		<dc:creator>Rasselas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4050</guid>
		<description>want to push the envelope? :)

Liethart
Eucharistic meditation, September 11
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.leithart.com/archives/001479.php&quot;&gt;http://www.leithart.com/archives/001479.php&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>want to push the envelope? <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Liethart<br />
Eucharistic meditation, September 11<br />
<a href="http://www.leithart.com/archives/001479.php">http://www.leithart.com/archives/001479.php</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Rew</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4051</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Rew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4051</guid>
		<description>If the Reformed drink and Baptists abstain, then what does a Reformed Baptist do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the Reformed drink and Baptists abstain, then what does a Reformed Baptist do?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: iMonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4052</link>
		<dc:creator>iMonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4052</guid>
		<description>Drinks.
Not all Baptists have this issue. SBC mostly, and then Indy fundy types.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drinks.<br />
Not all Baptists have this issue. SBC mostly, and then Indy fundy types.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: One Salient Oversight</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4053</link>
		<dc:creator>One Salient Oversight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4053</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve just written an article about what could happen to Mohler and the SBC if Al changed his mind and came out against prohibition. It may ruin his career, but it may also change the SBC for the better at the same time.

Please understand, though, that I am an Australian Presbyterian who has never darkened the door of an SBC church in my life - so feel free to correct me if need be:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://one-salient-oversight.blogspot.com/2005/09/how-al-mohler-could-force-sbc-to.html&quot;&gt;http://one-salient-oversight.blogspot.com/2005/09/how-al-mohler-could-force-sbc-to.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve just written an article about what could happen to Mohler and the SBC if Al changed his mind and came out against prohibition. It may ruin his career, but it may also change the SBC for the better at the same time.</p>
<p>Please understand, though, that I am an Australian Presbyterian who has never darkened the door of an SBC church in my life &#8211; so feel free to correct me if need be:</p>
<p><a href="http://one-salient-oversight.blogspot.com/2005/09/how-al-mohler-could-force-sbc-to.html">http://one-salient-oversight.blogspot.com/2005/09/how-al-mohler-could-force-sbc-to.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Wyman Richardson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/mohler-and-moore-on-southern-baptists-southern-seminary-and-alcohol-a-meandering-response-to-the-forum/comment-page-1#comment-4054</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyman Richardson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=193#comment-4054</guid>
		<description>GL, that&#039;s a brilliant analysis you posted.  Seriously.  You make some great points there.  I&#039;m a Southern Baptist pastor with lots of Reformed Baptist friends and I think you&#039;ve hit the nail on the head there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GL, that&#8217;s a brilliant analysis you posted.  Seriously.  You make some great points there.  I&#8217;m a Southern Baptist pastor with lots of Reformed Baptist friends and I think you&#8217;ve hit the nail on the head there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

