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	<title>Comments on: Miracle on 34th Street Ecumenism</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: treebeard</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-309983</link>
		<dc:creator>treebeard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Joe M: &lt;i&gt;&quot;The relationship with church community can also be seen like a marriage and a family. ... But if I want an open marriage,and have lots of different partners in order to “see what’s out there, to learn more” I might be creating more problems. ... [T]elling someone to go to another church to get something missing in my church can be seen like going to another spouse for what ever is missing in a marriage.&quot; &lt;/i&gt;

I disagree, and I applaud IM&#039;s wonderful post.
I was in a church for many years that had the attitude of being the unique expression of the Body of Christ. We looked down on &quot;poor Christianity&quot; with all of its divisions and complications, and its shallow gospel. We believed that anything a person needed was with us. They did not need to go anywhere else for help, because our ministry, teachings, and practices were all-inclusive. You could definitely say that I was &quot;married&quot; to this church. And eventually, it became an abusive and controlling marriage.

When I left that church, I honestly thought that I had left &quot;God&#039;s best,&quot; and that my Christian life could only go downhill. It took several years for me to be comfortable meeting with a dreaded denomination, part of poor Christianity, part of Babylon. 

And there I found help that I never even knew I needed. My faith was restored, my love for the Lord was rekindled, and I began to deal with inward problems and frustrations that I had buried for years because I was too busy serving the previous church. I received help for my personal life, help for my marriage, and help for my following of Christ as an individual and as a member of a church community. My life has been &quot;a tale of two churches,&quot; from one extreme of sectarian legalism, to another extreme of love, grace, and forgiveness. 

The turning point for me in making me feel at home in the new church was when I heard the main pastor encourage everyone to be married to Christ, and not to the church. (After all, we are the bride of Christ.) He insisted that the goal of this church was not to gain people for the church&#039;s sake, but to help people love and follow the Lord, and to take care of needs among the congregation and society at large. After so many years in a controlling and cultish sect, I was shocked when this pastor said, &quot;There are many great churches in this city. If there is any place that would help you more, please go there and don&#039;t feel condemned. We are here for you, you are not here for us. We are free in Christ and not in bondage to religious obligations.&quot; It&#039;s no wonder to me that with such a perspective, the Lord has blessed this church abundantly.

If you see a particular church as your &quot;spouse,&quot; then a problem will come if the spouse becomes abusive or controlling. But we are not married to any particular church or congregation, we are married to Christ Himself. He has the freedom to lead us and guide us where our needs and His needs can best be met. My &quot;marriage&quot; to that first church was eventually like a shotgun marriage, and for many years I stayed out of fear and obligation, not out of an experience of grace. 

If in that first church, there had been the attitude of &quot;we don&#039;t have it all, there are other places that may meet your needs better than we can,&quot; that alone would have been a protection to us. Our arrogance was our downfall. Some brothers and sisters needed particular help, but never received it because of our &quot;one size fits all&quot; mentality. They even felt guilty reading Christian books on marriage because they were written by people outside of our little sect. 

My new church is not something I&#039;m married to, it&#039;s simply an imperfect home where the Lord has brought me to enjoy a ministry of oil and wine, until He returns. No, we are not &quot;shoppers,&quot; but we are citizens of a heavenly kingdom that is greater than any sect or denomination. The Body of Christ is larger than our narrow little concepts. And those of us who follow Him should feel free to direct people to anywhere in the Body of Christ that renders them the most help, and that allows the Lord&#039;s purposes for them to be fulfilled, so that He Himself can be satisfied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe M: <i>&#8220;The relationship with church community can also be seen like a marriage and a family. &#8230; But if I want an open marriage,and have lots of different partners in order to “see what’s out there, to learn more” I might be creating more problems. &#8230; [T]elling someone to go to another church to get something missing in my church can be seen like going to another spouse for what ever is missing in a marriage.&#8221; </i></p>
<p>I disagree, and I applaud IM&#8217;s wonderful post.<br />
I was in a church for many years that had the attitude of being the unique expression of the Body of Christ. We looked down on &#8220;poor Christianity&#8221; with all of its divisions and complications, and its shallow gospel. We believed that anything a person needed was with us. They did not need to go anywhere else for help, because our ministry, teachings, and practices were all-inclusive. You could definitely say that I was &#8220;married&#8221; to this church. And eventually, it became an abusive and controlling marriage.</p>
<p>When I left that church, I honestly thought that I had left &#8220;God&#8217;s best,&#8221; and that my Christian life could only go downhill. It took several years for me to be comfortable meeting with a dreaded denomination, part of poor Christianity, part of Babylon. </p>
<p>And there I found help that I never even knew I needed. My faith was restored, my love for the Lord was rekindled, and I began to deal with inward problems and frustrations that I had buried for years because I was too busy serving the previous church. I received help for my personal life, help for my marriage, and help for my following of Christ as an individual and as a member of a church community. My life has been &#8220;a tale of two churches,&#8221; from one extreme of sectarian legalism, to another extreme of love, grace, and forgiveness. </p>
<p>The turning point for me in making me feel at home in the new church was when I heard the main pastor encourage everyone to be married to Christ, and not to the church. (After all, we are the bride of Christ.) He insisted that the goal of this church was not to gain people for the church&#8217;s sake, but to help people love and follow the Lord, and to take care of needs among the congregation and society at large. After so many years in a controlling and cultish sect, I was shocked when this pastor said, &#8220;There are many great churches in this city. If there is any place that would help you more, please go there and don&#8217;t feel condemned. We are here for you, you are not here for us. We are free in Christ and not in bondage to religious obligations.&#8221; It&#8217;s no wonder to me that with such a perspective, the Lord has blessed this church abundantly.</p>
<p>If you see a particular church as your &#8220;spouse,&#8221; then a problem will come if the spouse becomes abusive or controlling. But we are not married to any particular church or congregation, we are married to Christ Himself. He has the freedom to lead us and guide us where our needs and His needs can best be met. My &#8220;marriage&#8221; to that first church was eventually like a shotgun marriage, and for many years I stayed out of fear and obligation, not out of an experience of grace. </p>
<p>If in that first church, there had been the attitude of &#8220;we don&#8217;t have it all, there are other places that may meet your needs better than we can,&#8221; that alone would have been a protection to us. Our arrogance was our downfall. Some brothers and sisters needed particular help, but never received it because of our &#8220;one size fits all&#8221; mentality. They even felt guilty reading Christian books on marriage because they were written by people outside of our little sect. </p>
<p>My new church is not something I&#8217;m married to, it&#8217;s simply an imperfect home where the Lord has brought me to enjoy a ministry of oil and wine, until He returns. No, we are not &#8220;shoppers,&#8221; but we are citizens of a heavenly kingdom that is greater than any sect or denomination. The Body of Christ is larger than our narrow little concepts. And those of us who follow Him should feel free to direct people to anywhere in the Body of Christ that renders them the most help, and that allows the Lord&#8217;s purposes for them to be fulfilled, so that He Himself can be satisfied.</p>
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		<title>By: willoh</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-307434</link>
		<dc:creator>willoh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 03:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well it would be easier to get a long with other groups if they weren&#039;t so by golly dadburn wrong about so much! Once they all agree with me I will love them unconditionally! After all you want to be righteous, not wrongteous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well it would be easier to get a long with other groups if they weren&#8217;t so by golly dadburn wrong about so much! Once they all agree with me I will love them unconditionally! After all you want to be righteous, not wrongteous.</p>
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		<title>By: baregoofy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-307278</link>
		<dc:creator>baregoofy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism#comment-307278</guid>
		<description>So you are saying that the &quot;Universal&quot; is just as important if not more at times the local personal differences? UMMM... I truly buy that!!! We are ONE body in CHRIST made of many memembers.(1 Cor. 12:12-27) Diveristy is God&#039;s gift to mankind to show the different sides of our Great Father. 
Where has the LOVE gone so that others(world) know who we are? Have we sold it for a better product? Or even our very souls? Perspective in the grand scheme is that we are but a pebble of sand in God&#039;s plan. Praise God! May His glory be revealed in the diversity of His body!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you are saying that the &#8220;Universal&#8221; is just as important if not more at times the local personal differences? UMMM&#8230; I truly buy that!!! We are ONE body in CHRIST made of many memembers.(<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Cor.+12%3A12-27" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Cor 12:12-27">1 Cor. 12:12-27</a>) Diveristy is God&#8217;s gift to mankind to show the different sides of our Great Father.<br />
Where has the LOVE gone so that others(world) know who we are? Have we sold it for a better product? Or even our very souls? Perspective in the grand scheme is that we are but a pebble of sand in God&#8217;s plan. Praise God! May His glory be revealed in the diversity of His body!!!</p>
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		<title>By: dumb ox</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-307254</link>
		<dc:creator>dumb ox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism#comment-307254</guid>
		<description>I share your dream, but on this side of eternity, that&#039;s all it may be.  I think one rule of fallen human nature is that there must be someone who is wrong - someone who is proof that ones own clan is right.  Even the staunchest believers in relativism are guilty of this.  

With apparently the new &quot;thing&quot; in pastoral models being the macho, tough/trash-talking, alpha-male persona to attract men with a higher testosterone level to church, you bet there is going to be a felt need to kick sand in someone&#039;s face.  They won&#039;t all be wearing biker boots, but the outcome will be the same.

I guarantee that in those churches where the most fire-breathing against outsiders is occurring, there is an equal amount of abuse on the inside against its own members.  It&#039;s all so cool at first be a part of a group that acts like the top dog - biting, ridiculing and criticizing other groups, but those fangs will eventually be turned inside the group to uncover the &quot;true&quot; members.  Then it&#039;s not so fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I share your dream, but on this side of eternity, that&#8217;s all it may be.  I think one rule of fallen human nature is that there must be someone who is wrong &#8211; someone who is proof that ones own clan is right.  Even the staunchest believers in relativism are guilty of this.  </p>
<p>With apparently the new &#8220;thing&#8221; in pastoral models being the macho, tough/trash-talking, alpha-male persona to attract men with a higher testosterone level to church, you bet there is going to be a felt need to kick sand in someone&#8217;s face.  They won&#8217;t all be wearing biker boots, but the outcome will be the same.</p>
<p>I guarantee that in those churches where the most fire-breathing against outsiders is occurring, there is an equal amount of abuse on the inside against its own members.  It&#8217;s all so cool at first be a part of a group that acts like the top dog &#8211; biting, ridiculing and criticizing other groups, but those fangs will eventually be turned inside the group to uncover the &#8220;true&#8221; members.  Then it&#8217;s not so fun.</p>
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		<title>By: Dunker Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-307204</link>
		<dc:creator>Dunker Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism#comment-307204</guid>
		<description>Richard Foster has done a good job focusing on the strengths of various Christian groups and sending people out to learn from them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Foster has done a good job focusing on the strengths of various Christian groups and sending people out to learn from them.</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-307193</link>
		<dc:creator>Carolyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism#comment-307193</guid>
		<description>&quot;....they embraced a higher sense?&quot;    A &#039;higher sense&#039;.......that would do it!  When we continue to reject the Biblical notions of transformed minds and of perfect love, we doom ourselves to living up to the potential of fallen man... rather than living up to the potential of redeemed man.  The &#039;higher sense&#039; allows us to regain Eden life..or abundant life.  Embracing the &#039;higher&#039; places us on our faces on the ground and results in our preferring others before ourselves, in loving our neighbor as ourselves, and in passing, literally, from death to Life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;.they embraced a higher sense?&#8221;    A &#8216;higher sense&#8217;&#8230;&#8230;.that would do it!  When we continue to reject the Biblical notions of transformed minds and of perfect love, we doom ourselves to living up to the potential of fallen man&#8230; rather than living up to the potential of redeemed man.  The &#8216;higher sense&#8217; allows us to regain Eden life..or abundant life.  Embracing the &#8216;higher&#8217; places us on our faces on the ground and results in our preferring others before ourselves, in loving our neighbor as ourselves, and in passing, literally, from death to Life.</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-307161</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism#comment-307161</guid>
		<description>Michael,

This post is very much in the spirit of &lt;a href=&quot;http://eclecticchristian.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eclectic Christian&lt;/a&gt;.  Would you mind if I reposted it there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>This post is very much in the spirit of <a href="http://eclecticchristian.com" rel="nofollow">Eclectic Christian</a>.  Would you mind if I reposted it there?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe M</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-307141</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism#comment-307141</guid>
		<description>The relationship with church community can also be seen like a marriage and a family. It is long term, when you stay there a long time you see kids grow up, you see young people grow up and have kids, you see people die and go to their funerals. There is lots of love, it can be intimate, it is something you build up, and it is full of emotion.

Yes, it is OK to have supper with another family once in a while.  But if I want an open marriage,and have lots of different partners in order to &quot;see what&#039;s out there, to learn more&quot; I might be creating more problems. 

The model of the church as a store is really what is so wrong about churches in America right now.  I do go to other church worship services, and I believe in ecumenical study and worship and I do believe that ecumenical community work is good, but telling someone to go to another church to get something missing in my church can be seen like going to another spouse for what ever is missing in a marriage.  We are not shoppers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The relationship with church community can also be seen like a marriage and a family. It is long term, when you stay there a long time you see kids grow up, you see young people grow up and have kids, you see people die and go to their funerals. There is lots of love, it can be intimate, it is something you build up, and it is full of emotion.</p>
<p>Yes, it is OK to have supper with another family once in a while.  But if I want an open marriage,and have lots of different partners in order to &#8220;see what&#8217;s out there, to learn more&#8221; I might be creating more problems. </p>
<p>The model of the church as a store is really what is so wrong about churches in America right now.  I do go to other church worship services, and I believe in ecumenical study and worship and I do believe that ecumenical community work is good, but telling someone to go to another church to get something missing in my church can be seen like going to another spouse for what ever is missing in a marriage.  We are not shoppers.</p>
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		<title>By: tom l</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-307086</link>
		<dc:creator>tom l</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism#comment-307086</guid>
		<description>And what if we realized that the mission of the church was so big that it takes all of us working together to accomplish it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And what if we realized that the mission of the church was so big that it takes all of us working together to accomplish it?</p>
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		<title>By: K.W. Leslie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism/comment-page-1#comment-306976</link>
		<dc:creator>K.W. Leslie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/miracle-on-34th-street-ecumenism#comment-306976</guid>
		<description>Because if you buy that train set at Gimbel&#039;s you&#039;ll go to hell.

You&#039;re right (and Kringle, in the movie, is right) but the thinking of quite a few churches—certain independent ones in particular—is that if you don&#039;t have perfect orthodoxy, you don&#039;t have Jesus, and sending people to less-than-orthodox churches is no different than sending them to pagans.

Of course, this lack of generosity is also somewhat evident in their ministries and outreach, too. They tend to suck at giving to the needy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because if you buy that train set at Gimbel&#8217;s you&#8217;ll go to hell.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right (and Kringle, in the movie, is right) but the thinking of quite a few churches—certain independent ones in particular—is that if you don&#8217;t have perfect orthodoxy, you don&#8217;t have Jesus, and sending people to less-than-orthodox churches is no different than sending them to pagans.</p>
<p>Of course, this lack of generosity is also somewhat evident in their ministries and outreach, too. They tend to suck at giving to the needy.</p>
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