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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Lo, How a Rose:&#8221; Experiencing The Power of Beauty</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Pauline</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-337226</link>
		<dc:creator>Pauline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My sister sent me the link to your blog. Good post.

Unlike you, we were exposed to classical music from an early age. I remember enduring many choir concerts at church (my father sang bass in the choir) as a child. The words were often in Latin, and the program provided a translation. I could understand neither the spiritual meaning (why anyone would want to sing those words) nor why every line had to be repeated so many times. It seemed to me that once a line had been sung once that should be good enough. When the concert was finally over, my mother and I would clap enthusiastically - because it meant we could finally leave. (I don&#039;t know what my sister thought of it.)

I played violin starting in fifth grade, which exposed me to a lot more classical music (classical in the broad sense, not the Classical period of Beethoven and Mozart). I also loved the Christmas carols in different languages in a book that my father got out at Advent every year. To this day I would rather sing Adeste Fideles and Stille Nacht than O Come All Ye Faithful and Silent Night.

But what you post most reminded me of was the appreciation for church music that I gained in ninth grade, when I was finally in the adult choir with my father (my older sister had also been in it but had by then graduated and gone off to college). I remember singing &quot;Lo How a Rose E&#039;er Blooming&quot; that year, but it wasn&#039;t the one that really got to me. The haunting melody and words that made spiritual things seem real was &quot;Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence.&quot; In large part through the music we sang in choir that year, that through repetition seeped deep into me, I went from being an agnostic (yes, I joined the church choir not sure if I believed in God) to faith in Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My sister sent me the link to your blog. Good post.</p>
<p>Unlike you, we were exposed to classical music from an early age. I remember enduring many choir concerts at church (my father sang bass in the choir) as a child. The words were often in Latin, and the program provided a translation. I could understand neither the spiritual meaning (why anyone would want to sing those words) nor why every line had to be repeated so many times. It seemed to me that once a line had been sung once that should be good enough. When the concert was finally over, my mother and I would clap enthusiastically &#8211; because it meant we could finally leave. (I don&#8217;t know what my sister thought of it.)</p>
<p>I played violin starting in fifth grade, which exposed me to a lot more classical music (classical in the broad sense, not the Classical period of Beethoven and Mozart). I also loved the Christmas carols in different languages in a book that my father got out at Advent every year. To this day I would rather sing Adeste Fideles and Stille Nacht than O Come All Ye Faithful and Silent Night.</p>
<p>But what you post most reminded me of was the appreciation for church music that I gained in ninth grade, when I was finally in the adult choir with my father (my older sister had also been in it but had by then graduated and gone off to college). I remember singing &#8220;Lo How a Rose E&#8217;er Blooming&#8221; that year, but it wasn&#8217;t the one that really got to me. The haunting melody and words that made spiritual things seem real was &#8220;Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence.&#8221; In large part through the music we sang in choir that year, that through repetition seeped deep into me, I went from being an agnostic (yes, I joined the church choir not sure if I believed in God) to faith in Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Ritchie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-332187</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Ritchie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-332187</guid>
		<description>Nice post, Michael.

Ah, Chaplain Mike.  You speak my language.  And yes, Kings College is some of the best out there.  Those Wilcox descants for &quot;Hark! The Herald Angels Sing&quot; and &quot;Oh Come, All Ye Faithful&quot; are magnificent.

I highly recommend to everyone a DVD called &quot;Carols from King&#039;s&quot; put out by BBC.  The performance was from December 2000, but the set also has a service from 1954.  And the extra material talks about the traditions behind the Service of Lessons and Carols and its performance at King&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post, Michael.</p>
<p>Ah, Chaplain Mike.  You speak my language.  And yes, Kings College is some of the best out there.  Those Wilcox descants for &#8220;Hark! The Herald Angels Sing&#8221; and &#8220;Oh Come, All Ye Faithful&#8221; are magnificent.</p>
<p>I highly recommend to everyone a DVD called &#8220;Carols from King&#8217;s&#8221; put out by BBC.  The performance was from December 2000, but the set also has a service from 1954.  And the extra material talks about the traditions behind the Service of Lessons and Carols and its performance at King&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: bridget</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-332163</link>
		<dc:creator>bridget</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-332163</guid>
		<description>I was the daughter of German immigrants, and we did not have much in the  early years. One event we went to each Christmas was sponsored by a Catholic Society of Germans in Chicago. Every Christmas, they had a party. We would all come decked out in our finest. My sister and I always had those little red velveteen Christmas dresses. There would be a fine meal, at beautifully set tables with candles, etc. Then the lights would be turned down completely, and our attention would be directed to the front, where Advent candles would be lit, with Scritpures read, etc. Then, to top it all off, we would all sing together &quot;Stille Nacht&quot;, auf Deutsch, of course!  I was so moved by the simple beauty, and even as a very small child, would wonder at God becoming a man in Bethlehem.  After Stille Nacht, the mood would suddenly change, we&#039;d hear bells, and some loud ho-hoing that heralded the arrival of.....St Nicholas!!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was the daughter of German immigrants, and we did not have much in the  early years. One event we went to each Christmas was sponsored by a Catholic Society of Germans in Chicago. Every Christmas, they had a party. We would all come decked out in our finest. My sister and I always had those little red velveteen Christmas dresses. There would be a fine meal, at beautifully set tables with candles, etc. Then the lights would be turned down completely, and our attention would be directed to the front, where Advent candles would be lit, with Scritpures read, etc. Then, to top it all off, we would all sing together &#8220;Stille Nacht&#8221;, auf Deutsch, of course!  I was so moved by the simple beauty, and even as a very small child, would wonder at God becoming a man in Bethlehem.  After Stille Nacht, the mood would suddenly change, we&#8217;d hear bells, and some loud ho-hoing that heralded the arrival of&#8230;..St Nicholas!!  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: tim</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-332028</link>
		<dc:creator>tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-332028</guid>
		<description>I have a similar experience with this piece. I was raised the son of a southern baptist music minister, and was therefore thrust inevitably into all sorts of the music productions done there. Sang in choirs, played guitar for youth worship, trumpet in church orchestra. As you can imagine, very little of the music we ever sang (or the texts used for it) had much aesthetic value.

but one year for the annual christmas cantata (usually a typical SB fiasco), we did a production compiled by, among others, Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant. David Hamilton, the arranger for the whole work, did a chillingly good job with a few of the pieces - namely, a brief use of Lo How a Rose. That, and a piece called &quot;This is Love&quot; which simply compiled several scriptures set to lush orchestration, left a permanent impression on me as what modern church music COULD be. Praetorius&#039; setting of this text, like you said, iMonk, is gorgeous, haunting, and leaves a permanent mark.

While I love things like the Indelible Grace movement and Red Mountain Church, I hope we can also somehow maintain the integrity of the choral/orchestral music which has been kept safely in the church for centuries. It, like the old churches of the mainline denominations and Roman Catholicism, seem to evoke a sense of God&#039;s majesty and man&#039;s humility like few other things. And their beauty seems to evoke a shadow what our corporate worship in the New Jerusalem will be like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a similar experience with this piece. I was raised the son of a southern baptist music minister, and was therefore thrust inevitably into all sorts of the music productions done there. Sang in choirs, played guitar for youth worship, trumpet in church orchestra. As you can imagine, very little of the music we ever sang (or the texts used for it) had much aesthetic value.</p>
<p>but one year for the annual christmas cantata (usually a typical SB fiasco), we did a production compiled by, among others, Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant. David Hamilton, the arranger for the whole work, did a chillingly good job with a few of the pieces &#8211; namely, a brief use of Lo How a Rose. That, and a piece called &#8220;This is Love&#8221; which simply compiled several scriptures set to lush orchestration, left a permanent impression on me as what modern church music COULD be. Praetorius&#8217; setting of this text, like you said, iMonk, is gorgeous, haunting, and leaves a permanent mark.</p>
<p>While I love things like the Indelible Grace movement and Red Mountain Church, I hope we can also somehow maintain the integrity of the choral/orchestral music which has been kept safely in the church for centuries. It, like the old churches of the mainline denominations and Roman Catholicism, seem to evoke a sense of God&#8217;s majesty and man&#8217;s humility like few other things. And their beauty seems to evoke a shadow what our corporate worship in the New Jerusalem will be like.</p>
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		<title>By: MDS</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-332013</link>
		<dc:creator>MDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 19:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-332013</guid>
		<description>George C., I fully agree with your final paragraph.

I&#039;d like to hear from the Orthodox on this. I recall that Orthodoxy came to Russia because the Czar, wanting to establish a religion to bind the nation together, sent out men to search for and bring back the most beautiful religion they could find. What they discovered and brought back was Orthodoxy. 

A fascinating, and deep study of the theology of beauty by an Orthodox theologian is &quot;The Beauty of the Infinite&quot; by David Bentley Hart. 

I&#039;m not Orthodox, though I am drawn to its appreciation of the beauty of God and creation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George C., I fully agree with your final paragraph.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to hear from the Orthodox on this. I recall that Orthodoxy came to Russia because the Czar, wanting to establish a religion to bind the nation together, sent out men to search for and bring back the most beautiful religion they could find. What they discovered and brought back was Orthodoxy. </p>
<p>A fascinating, and deep study of the theology of beauty by an Orthodox theologian is &#8220;The Beauty of the Infinite&#8221; by David Bentley Hart. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not Orthodox, though I am drawn to its appreciation of the beauty of God and creation.</p>
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		<title>By: George C</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-331997</link>
		<dc:creator>George C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-331997</guid>
		<description>I wonder how much of being moved by beauty is reliant upon either the disposition to really listen or look (music is generally background noise for doing something else) or situations where you are forced to consider it (like middle school chior). 

On of my first memorable listening experiences was on a school trip from NY to VA.

A friend let me use listen to his walkman which had Van Halen&#039;s 1984 albumn in it. I remember starting at the first song and rewinding it (remember cassettes?) a number of times thinking that nothing coming afterwards could be as good. Eventually, after a bunch of listens I would let it play through the next song. I kept going that way through the whole albumn. 

 I don&#039;t know if I really &quot;got&quot; what David Lee Roth was singing about, but the music and the way it gave sound to emotions was a religious experience of sorts for me.

Not exactly fine art and certainly not puposely pointing to the divine, but I think creativity cannot help, but point to the Creator even if only in shadows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how much of being moved by beauty is reliant upon either the disposition to really listen or look (music is generally background noise for doing something else) or situations where you are forced to consider it (like middle school chior). </p>
<p>On of my first memorable listening experiences was on a school trip from NY to VA.</p>
<p>A friend let me use listen to his walkman which had Van Halen&#8217;s 1984 albumn in it. I remember starting at the first song and rewinding it (remember cassettes?) a number of times thinking that nothing coming afterwards could be as good. Eventually, after a bunch of listens I would let it play through the next song. I kept going that way through the whole albumn. </p>
<p> I don&#8217;t know if I really &#8220;got&#8221; what David Lee Roth was singing about, but the music and the way it gave sound to emotions was a religious experience of sorts for me.</p>
<p>Not exactly fine art and certainly not puposely pointing to the divine, but I think creativity cannot help, but point to the Creator even if only in shadows.</p>
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		<title>By: MDS</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-331994</link>
		<dc:creator>MDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-331994</guid>
		<description>An example of anti-beauty sentiment or what the above writer calls the cult of ugliness occurred in a conversation I recently had with our youth pastor. I recounted to him things my wife read me from a book called &quot;The Geometry of Love&quot; The writer describes an ancient but not well known church in Italy. She goes into unbelievable detail concerning the meaning and history behind all the myriad of architectural details in and out of the building. After describing these things briefly, I wondered aloud how someone would derive the depth of our theology out the ugliness of our typical protestant metal-structure church addition. He related it to a discussion taking place as to how we should celebrate the opening of the new building. The pastor did not want make a big deal of the building because he feels it is the people that are important and not the building. So the youth pastor said, &quot;During your first sermon, take a cup of coffee and throw in on the floor. Then say, &#039;That&#039;s the first carpet stain. Now we don&#039;t have to worry about the building&#039;. In fact, the young man actually said he loved that the building is ugly. In other words, ugliness honors God.

When I told my wife this story, she asked if he felt the same way about his wedding. In other words, did he want to have an ugly ceremony? And if he did, did his wife? She doubted that he did. I haven&#039;t asked him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An example of anti-beauty sentiment or what the above writer calls the cult of ugliness occurred in a conversation I recently had with our youth pastor. I recounted to him things my wife read me from a book called &#8220;The Geometry of Love&#8221; The writer describes an ancient but not well known church in Italy. She goes into unbelievable detail concerning the meaning and history behind all the myriad of architectural details in and out of the building. After describing these things briefly, I wondered aloud how someone would derive the depth of our theology out the ugliness of our typical protestant metal-structure church addition. He related it to a discussion taking place as to how we should celebrate the opening of the new building. The pastor did not want make a big deal of the building because he feels it is the people that are important and not the building. So the youth pastor said, &#8220;During your first sermon, take a cup of coffee and throw in on the floor. Then say, &#8216;That&#8217;s the first carpet stain. Now we don&#8217;t have to worry about the building&#8217;. In fact, the young man actually said he loved that the building is ugly. In other words, ugliness honors God.</p>
<p>When I told my wife this story, she asked if he felt the same way about his wedding. In other words, did he want to have an ugly ceremony? And if he did, did his wife? She doubted that he did. I haven&#8217;t asked him.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-331988</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-331988</guid>
		<description>We need beauty, IMonk.

To counter the Cult of Ugliness all around us -- in books, on TV, in Media, even in the racks of Christian Bookstore kitsch.

(A friend of mine coined the term &quot;Cult of Ugliness&quot; several years ago; since then I have heard it from others, including Pope Benedict.  Google the phrase sometime.)

I&#039;m a veteran SF litfan.  And I noticed that around 1968 there was a paradigm shift in SF lit, similar to that in the culture around it.  To show SF had now Become Serious Literature, you had to celebrate ugliness and nihilism; it showed what a Serious Author you were.  Continued over forty years it chipped away at the sense of beauty and wonder; bright futures abandoned for crapsack-Dark Futures, which were in turn abandoned for No Future, until all that&#039;s left is the weary ennui with Appropriate Ironic Quip of the Seinfeld Sneer.

I am reminded of Screwtape&#039;s dissertation to Wormwood regarding Music and Noise.  Today, the Noise is what&#039;s trendy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need beauty, IMonk.</p>
<p>To counter the Cult of Ugliness all around us &#8212; in books, on TV, in Media, even in the racks of Christian Bookstore kitsch.</p>
<p>(A friend of mine coined the term &#8220;Cult of Ugliness&#8221; several years ago; since then I have heard it from others, including Pope Benedict.  Google the phrase sometime.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a veteran SF litfan.  And I noticed that around 1968 there was a paradigm shift in SF lit, similar to that in the culture around it.  To show SF had now Become Serious Literature, you had to celebrate ugliness and nihilism; it showed what a Serious Author you were.  Continued over forty years it chipped away at the sense of beauty and wonder; bright futures abandoned for crapsack-Dark Futures, which were in turn abandoned for No Future, until all that&#8217;s left is the weary ennui with Appropriate Ironic Quip of the Seinfeld Sneer.</p>
<p>I am reminded of Screwtape&#8217;s dissertation to Wormwood regarding Music and Noise.  Today, the Noise is what&#8217;s trendy.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaplain Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-331981</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaplain Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-331981</guid>
		<description>The Advent and Christmas season is my season of music. I listen year &#039;round, but on the first Sunday of Advent all other music is forgotten but music which focuses on the promise and Incarnation of Christ. This is where I have found transcendent beauty and the genuine feelings that A.W. Tozer once described when he said, &quot;Truly great emotions arise from great thoughts.&quot; There is a combination of holy awe and intimacy in the best Advent and Christmas music that is not duplicated in any other music. Over the years, my wife and I have collected hundreds of Christmas albums and we never tire of their winsome appeal. I recommend the choral music of John Rutter, other choral CDs from Kings College or Trinity College, James Galway&#039;s Christmas, and many of the collections that include medieval carols. The medieval songs, like &quot;Lo How a Rose&quot; are so stark and yet lovely, like Bethlehem itself must have been. 

Thanks, Michael for this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Advent and Christmas season is my season of music. I listen year &#8217;round, but on the first Sunday of Advent all other music is forgotten but music which focuses on the promise and Incarnation of Christ. This is where I have found transcendent beauty and the genuine feelings that A.W. Tozer once described when he said, &#8220;Truly great emotions arise from great thoughts.&#8221; There is a combination of holy awe and intimacy in the best Advent and Christmas music that is not duplicated in any other music. Over the years, my wife and I have collected hundreds of Christmas albums and we never tire of their winsome appeal. I recommend the choral music of John Rutter, other choral CDs from Kings College or Trinity College, James Galway&#8217;s Christmas, and many of the collections that include medieval carols. The medieval songs, like &#8220;Lo How a Rose&#8221; are so stark and yet lovely, like Bethlehem itself must have been. </p>
<p>Thanks, Michael for this post.</p>
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		<title>By: MDS</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/lo-how-a-rose-experiencing-the-power-of-beauty/comment-page-1#comment-331979</link>
		<dc:creator>MDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=91#comment-331979</guid>
		<description>You touch on something I&#039;ve long wondered about. I live in the Ozark region of southwestern Missouri. The Ozark heritage is similar to the Appalachian&#039;s. The land is grows nothing but rocks. One had to be tough and long-suffering to survive.

One of the most distinguishing features of culture here is the lack of any degree of appreciation for beauty and aesthetics. This is deep rooted, and can be seen as well in the predominant expressions of faith that took root in this area. 

I can only assume that the poverty that was part of common life left little room for the development and appreciation of beauty. But there&#039;s more to it than this, for there are other regions on earth with impoverished peoples that seem to have developed a deep love of beauty. Indeed, beauty is an attribute of the nature of God and not dependent on wealth, nor control by an elite.

There is here even a degree of anti-beauty sentiment. I assume it is the same where you live. If beauty is celebrated all, it is of the cheapest, most commercial sort. You know; the kind the Christian book stores are filled with. I find it hard to stomach. These are sweet and good people, and I&#039;ve had to work at not being a snob about these things. But I long for beauty.

Any thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You touch on something I&#8217;ve long wondered about. I live in the Ozark region of southwestern Missouri. The Ozark heritage is similar to the Appalachian&#8217;s. The land is grows nothing but rocks. One had to be tough and long-suffering to survive.</p>
<p>One of the most distinguishing features of culture here is the lack of any degree of appreciation for beauty and aesthetics. This is deep rooted, and can be seen as well in the predominant expressions of faith that took root in this area. </p>
<p>I can only assume that the poverty that was part of common life left little room for the development and appreciation of beauty. But there&#8217;s more to it than this, for there are other regions on earth with impoverished peoples that seem to have developed a deep love of beauty. Indeed, beauty is an attribute of the nature of God and not dependent on wealth, nor control by an elite.</p>
<p>There is here even a degree of anti-beauty sentiment. I assume it is the same where you live. If beauty is celebrated all, it is of the cheapest, most commercial sort. You know; the kind the Christian book stores are filled with. I find it hard to stomach. These are sweet and good people, and I&#8217;ve had to work at not being a snob about these things. But I long for beauty.</p>
<p>Any thoughts?</p>
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