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	<title>Comments on: Liturgical Gangstas 7: Can the Church Require Fasting and Other Spiritual Disciplines?</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: How to Get Six Pack Fast</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-431561</link>
		<dc:creator>How to Get Six Pack Fast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-431561</guid>
		<description>My friend on Facebook shared this link   and I&#039;m not dissapointed   that I came here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My friend on Facebook shared this link   and I&#8217;m not dissapointed   that I came here.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Geiger</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-408016</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Geiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 20:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-408016</guid>
		<description>&quot;Iâ€™m debating which is more horrifying: Codes of Canon Legalese or the Minutes of a Presbyterian Judicial Hearing in the OPC.&quot;

Ouch, ouch!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Iâ€™m debating which is more horrifying: Codes of Canon Legalese or the Minutes of a Presbyterian Judicial Hearing in the OPC.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ouch, ouch!</p>
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		<title>By: Boaz</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-400012</link>
		<dc:creator>Boaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 07:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Awesome discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Michaela S</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-397953</link>
		<dc:creator>Michaela S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 07:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-397953</guid>
		<description>I wrote about the principles of fasting in a chapter in my book &quot;Isaiah Insights to Teenage Temptations&quot;, which is posted online here.  http://scriptorium-blogorium.freehostia.com/Site/Chapter_4.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote about the principles of fasting in a chapter in my book &#8220;Isaiah Insights to Teenage Temptations&#8221;, which is posted online here.  <a href="http://scriptorium-blogorium.freehostia.com/Site/Chapter_4.html" rel="nofollow">http://scriptorium-blogorium.freehostia.com/Site/Chapter_4.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Ernesto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-391024</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Ernesto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-391024</guid>
		<description>My last posting on this topic. GRIN. I have been way too busy they last four days!

The difference between kanon (canon) and nomos (law) in Eastern thought is very strong. For almost any rule, you can find an Eastern Father explaining why in this particular case it should not be enforced and why in this other case it should be even more rigorous. That is, while the rule, if read juridically, would appear to mandate certain observances with certain punishments, in an unthinking manner, when one reads the Eastern Fathers and their written guidelines for application, one realized that a kanon is not a nomos.

Read St. John Chrysostom&#039;s Easter Sermon and you will see kanon being expressed. GRIN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My last posting on this topic. GRIN. I have been way too busy they last four days!</p>
<p>The difference between kanon (canon) and nomos (law) in Eastern thought is very strong. For almost any rule, you can find an Eastern Father explaining why in this particular case it should not be enforced and why in this other case it should be even more rigorous. That is, while the rule, if read juridically, would appear to mandate certain observances with certain punishments, in an unthinking manner, when one reads the Eastern Fathers and their written guidelines for application, one realized that a kanon is not a nomos.</p>
<p>Read St. John Chrysostom&#8217;s Easter Sermon and you will see kanon being expressed. GRIN.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-390724</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-390724</guid>
		<description>Fr. Ernesto, your presence on this blog is a blessing!

I observe that those coming from a forensic legal model of how to understand Church &quot;mandates&quot; to fast will likely never comprehend the Eastern Orthodox mindset unless they are willing to call into question these forensic presuppositions. As formerly a longtime evangelical (going through various of its many camps over my 40 or so years under that banner), I seldom, if ever fasted (since it was not mandated), and derived little or no discernible spiritual benefit when I did. In contrast, I experience the &quot;mandated&quot; fasts in the Eastern Orthodox Church as well as its other structures (i.e., Liturgical cycle of prayers and services, Confession, etc.) as an unmitigated blessing for my wandering soul and look forward to them already (this is only my second year as an Orthodox Christian) and have heard other Orthodox of many years say the same--a joy that only increases through the  years. They are a blessing since I am abominable at structuring myself, and I know many others who have similar struggles. Now, I do not yet observe the full strict fasting rules because I am a beginner and there is much economy (as Fr. Ernesto has explained) to adapt rules for various individual personal aptitudes and needs under the guidance of one&#039;s Priest. The spiritual disciplines, properly applied, are a means to fuller intimacy and communion with Christ (which I have definitely experienced since becoming Orthodox). They are not the end of the spiritual life in themselves and if practiced as such will benefit no one. I hope this is a helpful perspective for some.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr. Ernesto, your presence on this blog is a blessing!</p>
<p>I observe that those coming from a forensic legal model of how to understand Church &#8220;mandates&#8221; to fast will likely never comprehend the Eastern Orthodox mindset unless they are willing to call into question these forensic presuppositions. As formerly a longtime evangelical (going through various of its many camps over my 40 or so years under that banner), I seldom, if ever fasted (since it was not mandated), and derived little or no discernible spiritual benefit when I did. In contrast, I experience the &#8220;mandated&#8221; fasts in the Eastern Orthodox Church as well as its other structures (i.e., Liturgical cycle of prayers and services, Confession, etc.) as an unmitigated blessing for my wandering soul and look forward to them already (this is only my second year as an Orthodox Christian) and have heard other Orthodox of many years say the same&#8211;a joy that only increases through the  years. They are a blessing since I am abominable at structuring myself, and I know many others who have similar struggles. Now, I do not yet observe the full strict fasting rules because I am a beginner and there is much economy (as Fr. Ernesto has explained) to adapt rules for various individual personal aptitudes and needs under the guidance of one&#8217;s Priest. The spiritual disciplines, properly applied, are a means to fuller intimacy and communion with Christ (which I have definitely experienced since becoming Orthodox). They are not the end of the spiritual life in themselves and if practiced as such will benefit no one. I hope this is a helpful perspective for some.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua D.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-390709</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-390709</guid>
		<description>I love this topic (Anglican here), because it shows how weirdly we are both rebellious and legalistic in the same breath within the Body of Christ. Fasting, sacrifice, consecration, and salvation are all elements of the Body of Christ and therefore are promulgated to the world by the Body of Christ. These things are given to us as gifts of the Holy Spirit to minister to our fellow Christians and to a lost and dying world. Instead of treating them like legalistic acts or things to deny or dilute because they seem to constricting, we should embrace them out of love for our Lord and Savior. I spent six years in various SBC churches during my spiritual exploration and one thing that strongly stood out was a worship of the sense of propriety and not a worship of our Lord Jesus Christ. I had an ecstatic vision of our Lord&#039;s journey down the Via Delorosa (Road of Sorrows) in the middle of a SBC church camp worship service, yet I was given some very odd looks whenever I mentioned it to friends in private. Yet these same people would talk about going to graveyards in the middle of the night to try to experience a dead person&#039;s spirit. It was as if the things of God were not welcome because of how they looked in public, but the things of Satan were just fine as long as they were done under the cover of night. One of the struggles of the Baptist denominations is their lack of acknowledgment of God&#039;s Real Presence among His people and this shows when things like fasting and discipline, which show this acknowledgment, are discussed as something for the whole church body to perform. The topic is poopooed as something that&#039;s either too Catholic or too legalistic. The denial of God&#039;s Presence can be construed as an implied denial of God&#039;s existence for many, and so I&#039;m led to believe that perhaps this is one reason why so many do become Catholics/Anglicans and alternatively, atheists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this topic (Anglican here), because it shows how weirdly we are both rebellious and legalistic in the same breath within the Body of Christ. Fasting, sacrifice, consecration, and salvation are all elements of the Body of Christ and therefore are promulgated to the world by the Body of Christ. These things are given to us as gifts of the Holy Spirit to minister to our fellow Christians and to a lost and dying world. Instead of treating them like legalistic acts or things to deny or dilute because they seem to constricting, we should embrace them out of love for our Lord and Savior. I spent six years in various SBC churches during my spiritual exploration and one thing that strongly stood out was a worship of the sense of propriety and not a worship of our Lord Jesus Christ. I had an ecstatic vision of our Lord&#8217;s journey down the Via Delorosa (Road of Sorrows) in the middle of a SBC church camp worship service, yet I was given some very odd looks whenever I mentioned it to friends in private. Yet these same people would talk about going to graveyards in the middle of the night to try to experience a dead person&#8217;s spirit. It was as if the things of God were not welcome because of how they looked in public, but the things of Satan were just fine as long as they were done under the cover of night. One of the struggles of the Baptist denominations is their lack of acknowledgment of God&#8217;s Real Presence among His people and this shows when things like fasting and discipline, which show this acknowledgment, are discussed as something for the whole church body to perform. The topic is poopooed as something that&#8217;s either too Catholic or too legalistic. The denial of God&#8217;s Presence can be construed as an implied denial of God&#8217;s existence for many, and so I&#8217;m led to believe that perhaps this is one reason why so many do become Catholics/Anglicans and alternatively, atheists.</p>
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		<title>By: Rev. Paul T. McCain</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-389322</link>
		<dc:creator>Rev. Paul T. McCain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 18:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-389322</guid>
		<description>When Lutherans state the whole story on where they stand on various issues, they usually end up not making either Protestant or Roman/Eastern Christians entirely happy. Here is a post on fasting I put up today that is an attempt to tell the whole story:

http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cyberbrethren/2009/03/on-fasting-and-lutheranism.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Lutherans state the whole story on where they stand on various issues, they usually end up not making either Protestant or Roman/Eastern Christians entirely happy. Here is a post on fasting I put up today that is an attempt to tell the whole story:</p>
<p><a href="http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cyberbrethren/2009/03/on-fasting-and-lutheranism.html" rel="nofollow">http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cyberbrethren/2009/03/on-fasting-and-lutheranism.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-389306</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 17:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-389306</guid>
		<description>I think the last part of Wyman&#039;s answer is the most important issue to consider. If the pastor is not practicing the spiritual disciplines then it will be almost impossible to find many congregants practicing them. Its the same with sharing the gospel - if the pastor is not doing it personally there is a high probability that the congregants will not be sharing the gospel either.

I do not think some of these things should be mandated as much as they should be modeled. There is a greater chance of congregants fasting if the pastor is doing it, he speaks about it in such a way that it is evident he is doing it (knows about it from 1st hand experience), and he speaks under the authority of Scripture in order to challenge them to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the last part of Wyman&#8217;s answer is the most important issue to consider. If the pastor is not practicing the spiritual disciplines then it will be almost impossible to find many congregants practicing them. Its the same with sharing the gospel &#8211; if the pastor is not doing it personally there is a high probability that the congregants will not be sharing the gospel either.</p>
<p>I do not think some of these things should be mandated as much as they should be modeled. There is a greater chance of congregants fasting if the pastor is doing it, he speaks about it in such a way that it is evident he is doing it (knows about it from 1st hand experience), and he speaks under the authority of Scripture in order to challenge them to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe M</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-7-can-the-church-require-fasting-and-other-spiritual-disciplines/comment-page-2#comment-389290</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 16:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2879#comment-389290</guid>
		<description>Fr. Ernesto

&quot;...Church administered punishments. I recognize that this is a leftover from the Middle Ages in the West, but such was not the Early Church stance.&quot;

I thought there were some cannons in the early Ecumenical Councils that mandated a certain frequency of communion and/or assisting at Divine Liturgy in order to remain in the Church.  Is not this the same principle?  Do X, Y, Z or you&#039;re out!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr. Ernesto</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;Church administered punishments. I recognize that this is a leftover from the Middle Ages in the West, but such was not the Early Church stance.&#8221;</p>
<p>I thought there were some cannons in the early Ecumenical Councils that mandated a certain frequency of communion and/or assisting at Divine Liturgy in order to remain in the Church.  Is not this the same principle?  Do X, Y, Z or you&#8217;re out!</p>
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