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	<title>Comments on: Liturgical Gangstas 12: Worship and Evangelism</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: ben whalley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-494761</link>
		<dc:creator>ben whalley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>go away</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>go away</p>
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		<title>By: ben whalley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-494760</link>
		<dc:creator>ben whalley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3216#comment-494760</guid>
		<description>i hate it all its rubbish i hate you so get lost u looser</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i hate it all its rubbish i hate you so get lost u looser</p>
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		<title>By: Johnboy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-465812</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 17:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3216#comment-465812</guid>
		<description>&quot;Worship is the submission of all of our nature to God. 
It is the quickening of conscience by His holiness, nourishment of mind by His truth, purifying of imagination by His beauty, opening of the heart to His love, and submission of will to His purpose.

And all this gathered up in adoration is the greatest of human expressions of which we are capable.&quot; - William Temple, Archbishop of Cantebury

One would hope that the gathered believers in a local church would manifest a love of God and one another that would &quot;rattle&quot; an outsider or unbeliever in the sense that looking in from the outside one would see a whole group who praise and worship a God they do not see, do not know, cannot hear and do not understand.   One could hope that even if they did not believe they would at least leave believing the believers do and that would cause them to realize they are &quot;outside&quot; the fold.

Hopefully, the human heart of those who gather is so open and abandoned in worship of God that the outsider would be disturbed at some level in their own conscience that they are missing something in life.  It is all a matter of the heart.   After our gahterings we should be ready to share our love of God and the others with whosoever will listen and come as well.  There just is no way to disconnect &quot;personal evangelism&quot; from worship for they both have their roots in Christ and if one is walking with Him, loving in Him and worshipping Him, then evangelism is a lot like breathing......not something your train for and think about but something that comes from being alive unto God.  The thought of specialized training would not occur since our purpose is to walk with and obey God.   The activity of evangelism is God already at work and you joining in on it somewhere along the path.

I don&#039;t think I rightly understand the question but to me the realtionship of worship and evangelism is not a thing, an activity we do or purpose we have but it is a person, the person of Jesus Christ.   The relationship of worship and evangelism is a person.

Imagine having a 100 people whose sole activity in life was to become like Jesus, act like Jesus, think like Jesus, love like Jesus and obeyed like Jesus.   All the world would come to see &quot;how they loved one another&quot; and worshipped the Lord as if He were really there.  I guess this is far to idealistic on my part but if we lived, loved and worshipped as we know we &quot;ought&quot; to do, evangelism would be so innertwined that no one could answer the question and would not care to try.  Some of the most effective evangelistic work I have ever witnessed in my lifetime was ordinary people living out there faith and not even aware they were &quot;doing personal evagelism&quot;.   They were just enjoying God and serving others when history changed the circumstances for another human being who met God in the life of an ordinary man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Worship is the submission of all of our nature to God.<br />
It is the quickening of conscience by His holiness, nourishment of mind by His truth, purifying of imagination by His beauty, opening of the heart to His love, and submission of will to His purpose.</p>
<p>And all this gathered up in adoration is the greatest of human expressions of which we are capable.&#8221; &#8211; William Temple, Archbishop of Cantebury</p>
<p>One would hope that the gathered believers in a local church would manifest a love of God and one another that would &#8220;rattle&#8221; an outsider or unbeliever in the sense that looking in from the outside one would see a whole group who praise and worship a God they do not see, do not know, cannot hear and do not understand.   One could hope that even if they did not believe they would at least leave believing the believers do and that would cause them to realize they are &#8220;outside&#8221; the fold.</p>
<p>Hopefully, the human heart of those who gather is so open and abandoned in worship of God that the outsider would be disturbed at some level in their own conscience that they are missing something in life.  It is all a matter of the heart.   After our gahterings we should be ready to share our love of God and the others with whosoever will listen and come as well.  There just is no way to disconnect &#8220;personal evangelism&#8221; from worship for they both have their roots in Christ and if one is walking with Him, loving in Him and worshipping Him, then evangelism is a lot like breathing&#8230;&#8230;not something your train for and think about but something that comes from being alive unto God.  The thought of specialized training would not occur since our purpose is to walk with and obey God.   The activity of evangelism is God already at work and you joining in on it somewhere along the path.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I rightly understand the question but to me the realtionship of worship and evangelism is not a thing, an activity we do or purpose we have but it is a person, the person of Jesus Christ.   The relationship of worship and evangelism is a person.</p>
<p>Imagine having a 100 people whose sole activity in life was to become like Jesus, act like Jesus, think like Jesus, love like Jesus and obeyed like Jesus.   All the world would come to see &#8220;how they loved one another&#8221; and worshipped the Lord as if He were really there.  I guess this is far to idealistic on my part but if we lived, loved and worshipped as we know we &#8220;ought&#8221; to do, evangelism would be so innertwined that no one could answer the question and would not care to try.  Some of the most effective evangelistic work I have ever witnessed in my lifetime was ordinary people living out there faith and not even aware they were &#8220;doing personal evagelism&#8221;.   They were just enjoying God and serving others when history changed the circumstances for another human being who met God in the life of an ordinary man.</p>
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		<title>By: Miguel</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-464857</link>
		<dc:creator>Miguel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 02:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The quote that us music guys just love to throw into a discussion like this is (though I cannot remember who said it):

&quot;Missions exist because worship doesn&#039;t.&quot;

However, that in turn can quickly become an indication, like has been said here already, of the shallowness of what is sometimes considered to be &quot;worship.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The quote that us music guys just love to throw into a discussion like this is (though I cannot remember who said it):</p>
<p>&#8220;Missions exist because worship doesn&#8217;t.&#8221;</p>
<p>However, that in turn can quickly become an indication, like has been said here already, of the shallowness of what is sometimes considered to be &#8220;worship.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Yogie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-464496</link>
		<dc:creator>Yogie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 15:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3216#comment-464496</guid>
		<description>How appropriate in this season of 24/7 prayer movement. Great insight and understanding that would be good for many to read and mull. Thanks G&#039;s</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How appropriate in this season of 24/7 prayer movement. Great insight and understanding that would be good for many to read and mull. Thanks G&#8217;s</p>
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		<title>By: boaz</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-464236</link>
		<dc:creator>boaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 04:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3216#comment-464236</guid>
		<description>I liked Pr. Richardson&#039;s answer. In worship, we receive the motivation to evangelize not from tips and pep rally antics, but by the truth of the Gospel. 

I was at a Baptist (non-liturgical) service last week and heard an 45 minute harangue about how we need to do more to evangelize and if you aren&#039;t evangelizing, it&#039;s because you aren&#039;t spending enough time in your devotion. No Gospel preached anywhere. I am very glad to see that some Baptists understand that the motivation to evangelize cannot come from the law, but can only truly come from faith and love of the Gospel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked Pr. Richardson&#8217;s answer. In worship, we receive the motivation to evangelize not from tips and pep rally antics, but by the truth of the Gospel. </p>
<p>I was at a Baptist (non-liturgical) service last week and heard an 45 minute harangue about how we need to do more to evangelize and if you aren&#8217;t evangelizing, it&#8217;s because you aren&#8217;t spending enough time in your devotion. No Gospel preached anywhere. I am very glad to see that some Baptists understand that the motivation to evangelize cannot come from the law, but can only truly come from faith and love of the Gospel.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Ernesto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-464001</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Ernesto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 19:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3216#comment-464001</guid>
		<description>Perhaps some of the concentration on heaven and a forgetting about a new earth started with the incredible destruction of culture during the Early Middle Ages, not to mention a plague that wiped out one third of Europe and left towns empty and wolves roaming the steppes. In such a setting, one could understand why talk of a new earth might not be quite good news and why people might look forward to leaving the earth.

I think that as we look at some of the African-American slave spirituals, one can catch some of that same tone of take me from here and take me elsewhere.

It is easy for us to speak of the mistakes of those who had a &quot;sweet by and by&quot; theology. But, when all hope here on earth is gone, when there is no place to be safe and danger everywhere, to say, &quot;in the sweet by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore,&quot; is a sweet expression of hope, hope that better shall come, trust that our God is truly in control, somehow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps some of the concentration on heaven and a forgetting about a new earth started with the incredible destruction of culture during the Early Middle Ages, not to mention a plague that wiped out one third of Europe and left towns empty and wolves roaming the steppes. In such a setting, one could understand why talk of a new earth might not be quite good news and why people might look forward to leaving the earth.</p>
<p>I think that as we look at some of the African-American slave spirituals, one can catch some of that same tone of take me from here and take me elsewhere.</p>
<p>It is easy for us to speak of the mistakes of those who had a &#8220;sweet by and by&#8221; theology. But, when all hope here on earth is gone, when there is no place to be safe and danger everywhere, to say, &#8220;in the sweet by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore,&#8221; is a sweet expression of hope, hope that better shall come, trust that our God is truly in control, somehow.</p>
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		<title>By: wcwirla</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-463869</link>
		<dc:creator>wcwirla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 14:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3216#comment-463869</guid>
		<description>&quot;Considering our hope is not in heaven but redeemed earth, perhaps that imagery needs revisiting? &quot;

I don&#039;t see a distinction here.  Our hope as the baptized children of God is resurrection to life and the new creation which comes down &quot;from above,&quot; our baptismal birthplace.  What we commonly call &quot;heaven&quot; as our ultimate destiny in Christ is not a renovated old creation but a resurrected new creation in which we are fully conformed to the image of Christ and fully experience our sharing in His glory as citizens of the heavenly City.  Our worship in the here and now, no matter how humble it might be humanly speaking, participates in this eternal heavenly worship.  This is why we confess that we sing the Sanctus (&quot;Holy, holy, holy&quot;) together with the &quot;angels, archangels, and all the company of heaven.&quot;

Another aspect of worship we haven&#039;t fully explored is the intersection of kairos and chronos, or as I put it the intersection of eternity and time, where the One who is the I AM reveals HImself in our time and place through Word and Sacrament.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Considering our hope is not in heaven but redeemed earth, perhaps that imagery needs revisiting? &#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see a distinction here.  Our hope as the baptized children of God is resurrection to life and the new creation which comes down &#8220;from above,&#8221; our baptismal birthplace.  What we commonly call &#8220;heaven&#8221; as our ultimate destiny in Christ is not a renovated old creation but a resurrected new creation in which we are fully conformed to the image of Christ and fully experience our sharing in His glory as citizens of the heavenly City.  Our worship in the here and now, no matter how humble it might be humanly speaking, participates in this eternal heavenly worship.  This is why we confess that we sing the Sanctus (&#8220;Holy, holy, holy&#8221;) together with the &#8220;angels, archangels, and all the company of heaven.&#8221;</p>
<p>Another aspect of worship we haven&#8217;t fully explored is the intersection of kairos and chronos, or as I put it the intersection of eternity and time, where the One who is the I AM reveals HImself in our time and place through Word and Sacrament.</p>
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		<title>By: Wyman Richardson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-463807</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyman Richardson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 12:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3216#comment-463807</guid>
		<description>&quot;If we are charged with using worship to make gospel beautiful I think, at least from my persecptive, we’ve made the gospel very very very boring and inaccessible.&quot;

Two thoughts:

1.  I agree.  We have made it very, very boring and inaccessible.  I think your post is right on and this is the great challenge many of us face.

2.  This is a quibble, really, but &quot;we are charged with using worship to make gospel beautiful&quot; makes me uneasy.  I suspect you&#039;d agree with this, but, technically speaking, we&#039;re not charged with using worship for any means at all.  Worship is an offering to God.  I&#039;m trying to argue that were worship to become a sincere cry to God, He will be magnified and His glory will be seen, and evangelism will happen.  But I wouldn&#039;t want to say that we are to &quot;use&quot; worship for this or that purpose.  (But, again, I suspect you&#039;d agree and I do get what you&#039;re trying to say...and I agree.)

Thanks for the responses!

Wyman</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If we are charged with using worship to make gospel beautiful I think, at least from my persecptive, we’ve made the gospel very very very boring and inaccessible.&#8221;</p>
<p>Two thoughts:</p>
<p>1.  I agree.  We have made it very, very boring and inaccessible.  I think your post is right on and this is the great challenge many of us face.</p>
<p>2.  This is a quibble, really, but &#8220;we are charged with using worship to make gospel beautiful&#8221; makes me uneasy.  I suspect you&#8217;d agree with this, but, technically speaking, we&#8217;re not charged with using worship for any means at all.  Worship is an offering to God.  I&#8217;m trying to argue that were worship to become a sincere cry to God, He will be magnified and His glory will be seen, and evangelism will happen.  But I wouldn&#8217;t want to say that we are to &#8220;use&#8221; worship for this or that purpose.  (But, again, I suspect you&#8217;d agree and I do get what you&#8217;re trying to say&#8230;and I agree.)</p>
<p>Thanks for the responses!</p>
<p>Wyman</p>
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		<title>By: JoanieD</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/liturgical-gangstas-12-worship-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-463796</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanieD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 11:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3216#comment-463796</guid>
		<description>Wow, there is very much agreement in the posts.  In fact, I had to scroll up on Wyman&#039;s post to make sure I was really reading the &quot;Baptist&quot; take on this!

Thanks to all of you for your reply to Michael&#039;s question.  (He asks good questions!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, there is very much agreement in the posts.  In fact, I had to scroll up on Wyman&#8217;s post to make sure I was really reading the &#8220;Baptist&#8221; take on this!</p>
<p>Thanks to all of you for your reply to Michael&#8217;s question.  (He asks good questions!)</p>
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