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	<title>Comments on: Litirgical Gangstas 10: The Value of Liturgy</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: MAJ Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-430444</link>
		<dc:creator>MAJ Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It wasn&#039;t until I read and understood the heavily cosmic/heavenly nature of the liturgy that I really was able to see the TRUE beauty in it, and I was always content with the Roman Rite.

One tremendous example is after the presentation of the gifts, when the Priest-Celebrant intones the Preface to the Canon or Eucharistic Prayer.  Note that it says several things, such as 1. our duty to give thanks to God, 2. the nature of the everlasting, all-powerful, and triune Godhead, and 3. that we join in praise with the saints and the angelic hosts (Sabaoth is Hebrew for &quot;Heavenly Armies&quot; essentially, which gets translated &quot;Hosts&quot; often in English.) Hence the heavenly or cosmic nature of worship in a liturgical setting.

Preface of the Holy Trinity, Missal of 1962 (Extraordinary Form)

It is truly meet and just, right for our salvation, that we should at all times and in all places, give thanks unto Thee, O holy Lord, Father almighty, everlasting God; Who, together with Thine only-begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost, art one God, one Lord: not in the oneness of a single Person, but in the Trinity of one substance. For what we believe by Thy revelation of Thy glory, the same do we believe of Thy Son, the same of the Holy Ghost, without difference or separation. So that in confessing the true and everlasting Godhead, distinction in persons, unity in essence, and equality in majesty may be adored. Which the Angels and Archangels, the Cherubim also and the Seraphim do praise: who cease not daily to cry out, with one voice saying:

Holy, holy, holy, (Sanctus...)Lord God of Hosts. (Dominus Deus, Sabaoth). Heaven and earth are full of Thy Glory. Hosanna in the highest. + Blessed is He Who cometh in the Name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

Gregorian Chant really brings out the celestial nature, and when the Priest-Celebrant uses a Gallican preface tone on the major feast days, as ours did on the Easter Vigil, it really hits home the point.  Gallican preface tones are very difficult, and have some soaring runs of notes.  Thankfully, our priest is a former Opera soloist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It wasn&#8217;t until I read and understood the heavily cosmic/heavenly nature of the liturgy that I really was able to see the TRUE beauty in it, and I was always content with the Roman Rite.</p>
<p>One tremendous example is after the presentation of the gifts, when the Priest-Celebrant intones the Preface to the Canon or Eucharistic Prayer.  Note that it says several things, such as 1. our duty to give thanks to God, 2. the nature of the everlasting, all-powerful, and triune Godhead, and 3. that we join in praise with the saints and the angelic hosts (Sabaoth is Hebrew for &#8220;Heavenly Armies&#8221; essentially, which gets translated &#8220;Hosts&#8221; often in English.) Hence the heavenly or cosmic nature of worship in a liturgical setting.</p>
<p>Preface of the Holy Trinity, Missal of 1962 (Extraordinary Form)</p>
<p>It is truly meet and just, right for our salvation, that we should at all times and in all places, give thanks unto Thee, O holy Lord, Father almighty, everlasting God; Who, together with Thine only-begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost, art one God, one Lord: not in the oneness of a single Person, but in the Trinity of one substance. For what we believe by Thy revelation of Thy glory, the same do we believe of Thy Son, the same of the Holy Ghost, without difference or separation. So that in confessing the true and everlasting Godhead, distinction in persons, unity in essence, and equality in majesty may be adored. Which the Angels and Archangels, the Cherubim also and the Seraphim do praise: who cease not daily to cry out, with one voice saying:</p>
<p>Holy, holy, holy, (Sanctus&#8230;)Lord God of Hosts. (Dominus Deus, Sabaoth). Heaven and earth are full of Thy Glory. Hosanna in the highest. + Blessed is He Who cometh in the Name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.</p>
<p>Gregorian Chant really brings out the celestial nature, and when the Priest-Celebrant uses a Gallican preface tone on the major feast days, as ours did on the Easter Vigil, it really hits home the point.  Gallican preface tones are very difficult, and have some soaring runs of notes.  Thankfully, our priest is a former Opera soloist.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-430195</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-430195</guid>
		<description>Jesus and his apostles apparently sang hymns customarily (Matthew 26:30). A hymn is a form of musical liturgy.  Therefore, reciting set words that someone else has composed and which you may have have recited verbatim many times before need not be incompatible with worshiping God in spirit and truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesus and his apostles apparently sang hymns customarily (Matthew 26:30). A hymn is a form of musical liturgy.  Therefore, reciting set words that someone else has composed and which you may have have recited verbatim many times before need not be incompatible with worshiping God in spirit and truth.</p>
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		<title>By: GNW_Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-429675</link>
		<dc:creator>GNW_Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 02:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-429675</guid>
		<description>Miguel

I was fortunate that a parish close to me (although not my own parish) had for many years a pastor who was a Liturgist extraordinare.  He absolutely insisted on actual training for lectors and personally saw to pre-liturgy practice from the lectern with the mic on before major liturgies such as the Passion and Easter Vigil (which can have up to 7 readings in addition to the Gospel).  Very much improved my ability to stay tuned in and pay attention when the lectors read more like a professional narrator and less like an automated telephone personality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miguel</p>
<p>I was fortunate that a parish close to me (although not my own parish) had for many years a pastor who was a Liturgist extraordinare.  He absolutely insisted on actual training for lectors and personally saw to pre-liturgy practice from the lectern with the mic on before major liturgies such as the Passion and Easter Vigil (which can have up to 7 readings in addition to the Gospel).  Very much improved my ability to stay tuned in and pay attention when the lectors read more like a professional narrator and less like an automated telephone personality.</p>
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		<title>By: Miguel</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-429594</link>
		<dc:creator>Miguel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 00:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-429594</guid>
		<description>Paul,
Thanks for the insight.  I agree with your statements about the reading.  From what I understand about these important and beautiful truths, the way in which a person reads them should communicate their response as an individual.  The readers did sound not to thrilled and that sort of bothered me.

All in all, while I did say that I found it boring (at my own fault not the liturgy&#039;s), I do say that I would probably go back and try to experience another mass on a regular day.  I did Saturday before Palm Sunday with the Episcopalians and had a lovely experience there.  I&#039;m not about to convert as I&#039;m employed by the SBC (I know, a shallow reason) but I do want to take what I can learn from other churches and implement it in my own environment to increase the focus on Christ and away from self.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,<br />
Thanks for the insight.  I agree with your statements about the reading.  From what I understand about these important and beautiful truths, the way in which a person reads them should communicate their response as an individual.  The readers did sound not to thrilled and that sort of bothered me.</p>
<p>All in all, while I did say that I found it boring (at my own fault not the liturgy&#8217;s), I do say that I would probably go back and try to experience another mass on a regular day.  I did Saturday before Palm Sunday with the Episcopalians and had a lovely experience there.  I&#8217;m not about to convert as I&#8217;m employed by the SBC (I know, a shallow reason) but I do want to take what I can learn from other churches and implement it in my own environment to increase the focus on Christ and away from self.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna A</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-429567</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-429567</guid>
		<description>Paul,

   I heard one time that the reason that the Orthodox churches are so beautiful with icons and mosaics is to help people worship, even when distracted.

I know that I could stare at some of the domes of Orthodox churches for a long time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>   I heard one time that the reason that the Orthodox churches are so beautiful with icons and mosaics is to help people worship, even when distracted.</p>
<p>I know that I could stare at some of the domes of Orthodox churches for a long time.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul in the GNW</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-429559</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul in the GNW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-429559</guid>
		<description>Miguel

The Good Friday liturgy is just about the hardest to &quot;get into.&quot;  Apropos to the day it is extra solemn and it is mainly one very long reading.  Certainly the devil (or human nature?) seems to distract me at the times I most want to focus on Jesus.  

A good homilist / speaker can help.  Really good, well trained readers can also help a bunch.  Too often (almost always) the lectors use almost no inflection and seldom vary their rhythm it become a drone.

One final thing to consider.  (This runs into several points of critical disagreement between Catholics and Protestants, and I&#039;m not trying to start a debate.)  In  Catholic theology Liturgy is a means of Grace.  So, although full mental participation is very desirable, even a very distracted attendance is still an opportunity for grace and growing in holiness.  

And sitting in a hard pew, standing for a long time, and fighting off distractions and temptations is good penance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miguel</p>
<p>The Good Friday liturgy is just about the hardest to &#8220;get into.&#8221;  Apropos to the day it is extra solemn and it is mainly one very long reading.  Certainly the devil (or human nature?) seems to distract me at the times I most want to focus on Jesus.  </p>
<p>A good homilist / speaker can help.  Really good, well trained readers can also help a bunch.  Too often (almost always) the lectors use almost no inflection and seldom vary their rhythm it become a drone.</p>
<p>One final thing to consider.  (This runs into several points of critical disagreement between Catholics and Protestants, and I&#8217;m not trying to start a debate.)  In  Catholic theology Liturgy is a means of Grace.  So, although full mental participation is very desirable, even a very distracted attendance is still an opportunity for grace and growing in holiness.  </p>
<p>And sitting in a hard pew, standing for a long time, and fighting off distractions and temptations is good penance.</p>
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		<title>By: Miguel</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-429457</link>
		<dc:creator>Miguel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-429457</guid>
		<description>Ok confession time for me.  I resonate so strongly with Dr. Richardson&#039;s comments.  It drives me nuts to hear people talk about how religion is dead and liturgy is meaningless.  Not to be arrogant, but I feel like I&#039;m being subjected to somebody bragging about their ignorance.
But on Good Friday this year I attended the Catholic Mass since my own SBC church was obviously doing nothing.  -- I felt bored to tears.
I left with a horrible feeling of conviction over how much I had allowed my spirituality to become entertainment driven.  The catholic mass wasn&#039;t wrong or bad, despite obvious theological differences.  But it was scripture and truth saturated, to the point of that being the only important thing.  I got more scripture out of that, I confess, than sometimes as an Evangelical I have gotten during the week.  It was refreshing.
Yet it required quite a bit of mental discipline to really &quot;get into it&quot; and understand the immense significance of what was going on.  To my horror I discovered I was incredibly not used to that.  The priest didn&#039;t even throw in the obligatory joke in his homily after point 2 to make everyone pay more attention.
Why did we throw it all out and try to re-invent the wheel? 
I always appreciate Fr. Ernesto&#039;s comments as well as the Orthodox perspective is always challenging and enlightening to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok confession time for me.  I resonate so strongly with Dr. Richardson&#8217;s comments.  It drives me nuts to hear people talk about how religion is dead and liturgy is meaningless.  Not to be arrogant, but I feel like I&#8217;m being subjected to somebody bragging about their ignorance.<br />
But on Good Friday this year I attended the Catholic Mass since my own SBC church was obviously doing nothing.  &#8212; I felt bored to tears.<br />
I left with a horrible feeling of conviction over how much I had allowed my spirituality to become entertainment driven.  The catholic mass wasn&#8217;t wrong or bad, despite obvious theological differences.  But it was scripture and truth saturated, to the point of that being the only important thing.  I got more scripture out of that, I confess, than sometimes as an Evangelical I have gotten during the week.  It was refreshing.<br />
Yet it required quite a bit of mental discipline to really &#8220;get into it&#8221; and understand the immense significance of what was going on.  To my horror I discovered I was incredibly not used to that.  The priest didn&#8217;t even throw in the obligatory joke in his homily after point 2 to make everyone pay more attention.<br />
Why did we throw it all out and try to re-invent the wheel?<br />
I always appreciate Fr. Ernesto&#8217;s comments as well as the Orthodox perspective is always challenging and enlightening to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-429432</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-429432</guid>
		<description>iMonk -

That&#039;s not really true. I would encourage you to look into the work of D.G. Hart&#039;s &quot;Recovering Mother Kirk: The case for liturgy in the Reformed tradition.&quot; traditional Reformed worship is liturgical in nature with a confession of faith, sin, creeds, etc. And I am in a PCA church that uses an Advent wreath, marks Lent and has a Maundy Thursday service. We confess the faith as &quot;catholic,&quot; but catholic does not mean Roman.

or just look at functioning liturgies in Reformed churches:

http://liturgicalinstitute.wordpress.com/churches/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iMonk -</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not really true. I would encourage you to look into the work of D.G. Hart&#8217;s &#8220;Recovering Mother Kirk: The case for liturgy in the Reformed tradition.&#8221; traditional Reformed worship is liturgical in nature with a confession of faith, sin, creeds, etc. And I am in a PCA church that uses an Advent wreath, marks Lent and has a Maundy Thursday service. We confess the faith as &#8220;catholic,&#8221; but catholic does not mean Roman.</p>
<p>or just look at functioning liturgies in Reformed churches:</p>
<p><a href="http://liturgicalinstitute.wordpress.com/churches/" rel="nofollow">http://liturgicalinstitute.wordpress.com/churches/</a></p>
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		<title>By: boaz</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-429226</link>
		<dc:creator>boaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-429226</guid>
		<description>One important note is that liturgy must be taught. For example, I recently heard my excellent Lutheran pastor preach on the Kyrie, and how frequently we find in the New Testament Christ responding to those who approach him and ask for mercy. We should approach him the same way. The comment, something I never noticed, added to my appreciation every sunday since.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One important note is that liturgy must be taught. For example, I recently heard my excellent Lutheran pastor preach on the Kyrie, and how frequently we find in the New Testament Christ responding to those who approach him and ask for mercy. We should approach him the same way. The comment, something I never noticed, added to my appreciation every sunday since.</p>
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		<title>By: MAJ Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/litirgical-gangstas-10-the-value-of-liturgy/comment-page-2#comment-429213</link>
		<dc:creator>MAJ Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3053#comment-429213</guid>
		<description>For the record, Tenebrae in the RCC IS a Liturgy of the Hours, or Divine Office.  Tenebrae, latin for &quot;shadows&quot; or &quot;darkness&quot; is the combination of the offices of Matins and Lauds, the first two offices, which are normally early (Oh-Dark-Thirty) morning and first light offices.  The Roman Rite traditionally had three Tenebrae services (prior to 1955, when the Holy Week was reformed by Pius XII, my parish has all three) starting with the Tenebrae of Holy Thursday, held on the evening of &quot;Spy Wed&quot; which includes the first chapter of Lamentations.  Our FSSP (Trad. Latin Mass) apostolate priest leads the service, most of which is in Latin.  It&#039;s a very somber service, even if you understood none of the words lacking a translation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenebrae
-------------
Eastern Rite Easter Hymn (I was graced to find a Byzantine-Ruthenian Church in Las Vegas in 2005 when I was a student at Nellis AFB.  The Church is St. Gabriel the Archangel.  Small community: big faith.

Christ is Risen from the Dead,
By Death He conquered Death,
And to those in the graves He granted Life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, Tenebrae in the RCC IS a Liturgy of the Hours, or Divine Office.  Tenebrae, latin for &#8220;shadows&#8221; or &#8220;darkness&#8221; is the combination of the offices of Matins and Lauds, the first two offices, which are normally early (Oh-Dark-Thirty) morning and first light offices.  The Roman Rite traditionally had three Tenebrae services (prior to 1955, when the Holy Week was reformed by Pius XII, my parish has all three) starting with the Tenebrae of Holy Thursday, held on the evening of &#8220;Spy Wed&#8221; which includes the first chapter of Lamentations.  Our FSSP (Trad. Latin Mass) apostolate priest leads the service, most of which is in Latin.  It&#8217;s a very somber service, even if you understood none of the words lacking a translation.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenebrae" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenebrae</a><br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
Eastern Rite Easter Hymn (I was graced to find a Byzantine-Ruthenian Church in Las Vegas in 2005 when I was a student at Nellis AFB.  The Church is St. Gabriel the Archangel.  Small community: big faith.</p>
<p>Christ is Risen from the Dead,<br />
By Death He conquered Death,<br />
And to those in the graves He granted Life.</p>
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