Comments on: Letting Some of the Air Out of The Reformation Day Balloon http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:09:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Jenny Bluett http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-147727 Jenny Bluett Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:44:35 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-147727 Ted said: "Nevertheless, as we see today the missions movement in the Catholic church is weak, but it is still very strong in Evangelicalism precisely because it isn’t weighed down by a large hierarchical system" I'm sorry Ted, but from what evidence do you draw that evangelism and global mission of the Catholic Church is "weak"? I could be very sarcastic, but I'll refrain and just site a stat: "...Africa has witnessed the most explosive growth. In the 20th century, Africa went from a Catholic population of 1.9 million in 1900 to 130 million in 2000, a staggering growth rate of 6,708 percent. Half of all adult baptisms in the world, the surest sign of missionary expansion, are in Africa." -National Catholic Reporter, March 10, 2006. Ted said:
“Nevertheless, as we see today the missions movement in the Catholic church is weak, but it is still very strong in Evangelicalism precisely because it isn’t weighed down by a large hierarchical system”

I’m sorry Ted, but from what evidence do you draw that evangelism and global mission of the Catholic Church is “weak”? I could be very sarcastic, but I’ll refrain and just site a stat:

“…Africa has witnessed the most explosive growth. In the 20th century, Africa went from a Catholic population of 1.9 million in 1900 to 130 million in 2000, a staggering growth rate of 6,708 percent. Half of all adult baptisms in the world, the surest sign of missionary expansion, are in Africa.”

-National Catholic Reporter, March 10, 2006.

]]> By: Michael Spencer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-147097 Michael Spencer Sat, 03 Nov 2007 02:53:28 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-147097 Thanks for the links Jason. Appreciate the audio. Would love to do a blog interview with you sometime on church planting. Thanks for the links Jason. Appreciate the audio.

Would love to do a blog interview with you sometime on church planting.

]]> By: Jason Robertson http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-147094 Jason Robertson Sat, 03 Nov 2007 02:40:49 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-147094 We had a wonderful time celebrating the Reformation by preaching the 5 Solas using preachers from several different churches (different denominations in fact). http://fide-o.blogspot.com/2007/10/reformation-celebration.html We had a wonderful time celebrating the Reformation by preaching the 5 Solas using preachers from several different churches (different denominations in fact).
http://fide-o.blogspot.com/2007/10/reformation-celebration.html

]]> By: Vangelicmonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-147037 Vangelicmonk Sat, 03 Nov 2007 00:12:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-147037 Michael Spencer, Actually, you are correct. Although the Evangelical missions movement was something that was later, I find it hard to believe it can exist without the Reformation. If one argues that the Catholic Church and Orthodox tradition's missions movement (the early Christian church in India, China, and South America) would have filled that gap, I don't think it is a good argument. The Catholic church had the same inclination as the early Reformers to grow the Church based on the state government. This is part of the reason why I think the Catholic church has declined in Europe. It was too closely tied to the state and it is also why the Protestant Church (like in Denmark) is declining is because of it's too close a tie to the State. Nevertheless, as we see today the missions movement in the Catholic church is weak, but it is still very strong in Evangelicalism precisely because it isn't weighed down by a large hierarchical system, but still seeks to be faithful to the core essentials of all Christians by an expanded form of the "Rule of Faith." It is this flexibility and adaptability (provided because of the Reformation and hard to establish in older hierarchical Church systems) that has allowed such a great and sustained Missions Movement for such a a long time. -Ted. Michael Spencer,

Actually, you are correct. Although the Evangelical missions movement was something that was later, I find it hard to believe it can exist without the Reformation.

If one argues that the Catholic Church and Orthodox tradition’s missions movement (the early Christian church in India, China, and South America) would have filled that gap, I don’t think it is a good argument.

The Catholic church had the same inclination as the early Reformers to grow the Church based on the state government. This is part of the reason why I think the Catholic church has declined in Europe. It was too closely tied to the state and it is also why the Protestant Church (like in Denmark) is declining is because of it’s too close a tie to the State. Nevertheless, as we see today the missions movement in the Catholic church is weak, but it is still very strong in Evangelicalism precisely because it isn’t weighed down by a large hierarchical system, but still seeks to be faithful to the core essentials of all Christians by an expanded form of the “Rule of Faith.”

It is this flexibility and adaptability (provided because of the Reformation and hard to establish in older hierarchical Church systems) that has allowed such a great and sustained Missions Movement for such a a long time.

-Ted.

]]> By: The Schooley Files http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-147033 The Schooley Files Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:40:55 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-147033 <strong>Rethinking the Reformation...</strong> It's a little late to be talking about Hallo Reformation Day, but Michael Spencer's post is really more about how we should view the Reformation itself.... Rethinking the Reformation…

It’s a little late to be talking about Hallo Reformation Day, but Michael Spencer’s post is really more about how we should view the Reformation itself….

]]> By: Michael Spencer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-147032 Michael Spencer Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:29:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-147032 Ted: One of the greatest failings of the Reformation is that it was not a Missions movement. (I'll be blogging on this very soon.) The Reformers supported a reformation carried out by government not missionaries, they denied that the Great Commission was for all Christians and they saw no reason to organize and support missions as evangelicals understood it post-William Carey. And despite noble efforts to prove otherwise, the modern missions movement was not the outgrowth of the Reformation, but ran counter to much of it. Without the Pietists, Zinzendorf, Wesleys, etc. where would the missions movement be? Right where Luther and Calvin would have left it: the domain of the state. Ted: One of the greatest failings of the Reformation is that it was not a Missions movement. (I’ll be blogging on this very soon.) The Reformers supported a reformation carried out by government not missionaries, they denied that the Great Commission was for all Christians and they saw no reason to organize and support missions as evangelicals understood it post-William Carey. And despite noble efforts to prove otherwise, the modern missions movement was not the outgrowth of the Reformation, but ran counter to much of it. Without the Pietists, Zinzendorf, Wesleys, etc. where would the missions movement be? Right where Luther and Calvin would have left it: the domain of the state.

]]> By: Vangelicmonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-147031 Vangelicmonk Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:25:19 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-147031 I have never really celebrated "Reformation Day" as I'm not of the full Reformed position. However, I think it is a day to at least look upon what Luther tried to do. Now I'm not a Luther expert, but wouldn't it be prudent to say that Luther's position on the Catholic Church evolved over time? Therefore, what you say about Luther and that position depends on what period of his life you are talking about. That being said, I think there is value in seeing that Luther sought to Reform the Church. Luther's view of the Church changed over time, but the idea of Reform is something we should appreciate. The Reformation was not the Resurrection or Christ's birth. It is not a moment that was perfect, but there are ideals there that are important to Christians and Protestants. The church should always be Reforming. Praying, Seeking God, Seeking Scripture, examining our hearts, examining our positions, and seeking His Will and doing His will continually. It seems you are Reforming personally and I think Protestant and Evangelicals are Reforming as well over time. I appreciate what your saying IMonk, but on the whole I think you miss some of the importance of the Reformation both for the Church (the missions movement) and history. -Ted. I have never really celebrated “Reformation Day” as I’m not of the full Reformed position. However, I think it is a day to at least look upon what Luther tried to do.

Now I’m not a Luther expert, but wouldn’t it be prudent to say that Luther’s position on the Catholic Church evolved over time? Therefore, what you say about Luther and that position depends on what period of his life you are talking about.

That being said, I think there is value in seeing that Luther sought to Reform the Church. Luther’s view of the Church changed over time, but the idea of Reform is something we should appreciate. The Reformation was not the Resurrection or Christ’s birth. It is not a moment that was perfect, but there are ideals there that are important to Christians and Protestants. The church should always be Reforming. Praying, Seeking God, Seeking Scripture, examining our hearts, examining our positions, and seeking His Will and doing His will continually. It seems you are Reforming personally and I think Protestant and Evangelicals are Reforming as well over time.

I appreciate what your saying IMonk, but on the whole I think you miss some of the importance of the Reformation both for the Church (the missions movement) and history.

-Ted.

]]> By: Uncle Mikey http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-146580 Uncle Mikey Thu, 01 Nov 2007 20:40:51 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-146580 What is the importance of this topic? Is it to ruffle the proud feathers of the Prostants? To showcase the Cathloics are not so bad after all? I to have pondered this fact of such a division that has separated so many for so long. I have been a person that has traveled through many places of the Evangelical tree of divison. What I have found is that we all want to serve God's Kingdom. Though there are many that are in it for themseleves, but by in large, we all want to the see the things of God come to pass. I am not a huge fan of the Cathloic faith due to its works to earn grace, but I know many that are saved and sanctified through the Cathloic Church. Are we not all dancing around the simple notion that God calls whom He calls? If so in the end, when we are passing through the 'pearly gates' we will be standing next to the Saints of God, not Prostant, not Cathloic, not Methodists, not Pentecostals, or others. We ouhgt to begin to see others as God sees them, that is His children. If any think that one sect has is together in their theology, well we ought to get down our knees and repent. Reformers were yesterday, today and will be until Christ comes back. What is the importance of this topic? Is it to ruffle the proud feathers of the Prostants? To showcase the Cathloics are not so bad after all? I to have pondered this fact of such a division that has separated so many for so long. I have been a person that has traveled through many places of the Evangelical tree of divison. What I have found is that we all want to serve God’s Kingdom. Though there are many that are in it for themseleves, but by in large, we all want to the see the things of God come to pass. I am not a huge fan of the Cathloic faith due to its works to earn grace, but I know many that are saved and sanctified through the Cathloic Church. Are we not all dancing around the simple notion that God calls whom He calls? If so in the end, when we are passing through the ‘pearly gates’ we will be standing next to the Saints of God, not Prostant, not Cathloic, not Methodists, not Pentecostals, or others. We ouhgt to begin to see others as God sees them, that is His children. If any think that one sect has is together in their theology, well we ought to get down our knees and repent. Reformers were yesterday, today and will be until Christ comes back.

]]> By: Patrick Kyle http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-146396 Patrick Kyle Thu, 01 Nov 2007 07:16:09 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-146396 What is celebrated on Reformation Day is a return to the clarity and simplicity of the Gospel at a time (like now) when it was often greatly obscured. Luther labored mightily to reform from within the church, even pleading in letters(very respectfully written) with the Pope. In the end Luther and the churches who followed the doctrine he taught were excommunicated. Rome then in effect burned the bridge behind us in the Council of Trent, virtually making the breach irreparable by their decrees. (If Rome would allow us to teach the Gospel, and hold that the Papal office is of human origins, created for the administration of God's people, not a divinely mandated office, many of us would go back to the Roman Catholic Church. I'm not holding my breath though. We've been waiting 450 years.) I often wonder about true reform in the light of Jesus' discourse on the wineskins and the new wine. Many wish to reform through schism, the "come out from among them and be ye separate" model. In my mind this route is questionable at best. However, is it possible to truly reform a church that has lost its way, without getting yourself excommunicated or "dis-fellowshipped?" One modern example that comes close is the Worldwide Church of God after G.T. Armstrong died. Those he left in charge discovered through their research that they held to false doctrine and were outside Christian orthodoxy. They then led their church back into Christianity by teaching and preaching and a good helping of repentance. ( A split did develop with those who wanted to hold with the old teachings of their founder, so it did result in a split, but not between two groups of Christians.) However, I'm told that this instance may be unique in all of Christian History, and it does not involve the reforming of a Christian church, but a cult. What is celebrated on Reformation Day is a return to the clarity and simplicity of the Gospel at a time (like now) when it was often greatly obscured. Luther labored mightily to reform from within the church, even pleading in letters(very respectfully written) with the Pope. In the end Luther and the churches who followed the doctrine he taught were excommunicated. Rome then in effect burned the bridge behind us in the Council of Trent, virtually making the breach irreparable by their decrees. (If Rome would allow us to teach the Gospel, and hold that the Papal office is of human origins, created for the administration of God’s people, not a divinely mandated office, many of us would go back to the Roman Catholic Church. I’m not holding my breath though. We’ve been waiting 450 years.)
I often wonder about true reform in the light of Jesus’ discourse on the wineskins and the new wine. Many wish to reform through schism, the “come out from among them and be ye separate” model. In my mind this route is questionable at best. However, is it possible to truly reform a church that has lost its way, without getting yourself excommunicated or “dis-fellowshipped?” One modern example that comes close is the Worldwide Church of God after G.T. Armstrong died. Those he left in charge discovered through their research that they held to false doctrine and were outside Christian orthodoxy. They then led their church back into Christianity by teaching and preaching and a good helping of repentance. ( A split did develop with those who wanted to hold with the old teachings of their founder, so it did result in a split, but not between two groups of Christians.) However, I’m told that this instance may be unique in all of Christian History, and it does not involve the reforming of a Christian church, but a cult.

]]> By: Nicholas Anton http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon/comment-page-2#comment-146382 Nicholas Anton Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:05:39 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/letting-some-of-the-air-out-of-the-reformation-day-balloon#comment-146382 Michael Thanks for introducing me to Sola versus Solo Scriptura. I would hope that I truly believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe Scripture to be/have been correctly interpreted when my understanding of it corresponds to the original author’s intended meaning. That process can at times be exceedingly difficult, in that it entails the understanding of God, humankind, language and history plus much more. In this context, I stumbled on the scholarship of Sir Edwyn Hoskyns (1931) on the terms “ekklesia”, and “Aletheia” (http://www.bible-researcher.com/semasiology.html). Though his work may be somewhat outdated, it nevertheless has been very insightful to me. Michael

Thanks for introducing me to Sola versus Solo Scriptura. I would hope that I truly believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe Scripture to be/have been correctly interpreted when my understanding of it corresponds to the original author’s intended meaning. That process can at times be exceedingly difficult, in that it entails the understanding of God, humankind, language and history plus much more.
In this context, I stumbled on the scholarship of Sir Edwyn Hoskyns (1931) on the terms “ekklesia”, and “Aletheia” (http://www.bible-researcher.com/semasiology.html). Though his work may be somewhat outdated, it nevertheless has been very insightful to me.

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