Comments on: Leaving Room For Churches To Be Wrong http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:47:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Sensus Divinitatis News http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-2#comment-506626 Sensus Divinitatis News Tue, 11 Aug 2009 11:41:44 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506626 <strong>Leaving Room For Churches To Be Wrong...</strong> This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News.... Leaving Room For Churches To Be Wrong…

This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News….

]]> By: Tim W http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-506518 Tim W Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:00:05 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506518 I was 8 years old and sang in the kids choir. My family had started goign to another church but I liked being in choir so one of my parents would take me to the old church so i could sing in the choir. the choir director foudn out we were at another church and told me I could be in their choir any more, which totally confused me. this was my first realization that the christian life had a crappy, political aspect to it. I was 8 years old and sang in the kids choir. My family had started goign to another church but I liked being in choir so one of my parents would take me to the old church so i could sing in the choir. the choir director foudn out we were at another church and told me I could be in their choir any more, which totally confused me. this was my first realization that the christian life had a crappy, political aspect to it.

]]> By: Jeff Kursonis http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-2#comment-506188 Jeff Kursonis Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:07:35 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506188 It's funny, when I read the blog post title, "Leaving room for churches to be wrong" when linking over from Jamie Arpin-Ricci's blog, I thought it would be about counseling emergers to be more patient with all the obviously silly/wrong/weird stuff that churches do, and for emergers to be more patient toward churches hoping they will eventually come around on their own without us having to tear them a new one... ...which seemed like good advice...like allowing someone you love to figure out their own issues without constantly blasting them in the face about it. Just because you know what's wrong doesn't mean you should always say it. It’s funny, when I read the blog post title, “Leaving room for churches to be wrong” when linking over from Jamie Arpin-Ricci’s blog, I thought it would be about counseling emergers to be more patient with all the obviously silly/wrong/weird stuff that churches do, and for emergers to be more patient toward churches hoping they will eventually come around on their own without us having to tear them a new one…

…which seemed like good advice…like allowing someone you love to figure out their own issues without constantly blasting them in the face about it. Just because you know what’s wrong doesn’t mean you should always say it.

]]> By: Mark http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-2#comment-506140 Mark Sat, 08 Aug 2009 15:13:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506140 This is a great article that everyone should read. However, there is truth, there is authority. Christ and His Word are final in both. Those of us that are tired of the disjunct however with the institutional church (sign me up) and biblical teaching need to prayerfully consider our alternatives. Derek, I agree with most of what you say but we need caution when we are thinking the whenever, wherever I go argument. You really do need a local body to fellowship with, I don't care if its in a yard, garage, etc. Think about it......who are we to be accountable to in regards to the Lord's table which should be withheld in a discipline issue? What do we do with the issue of discipline (this is completely ignored in most churches as well)in regards to the teachings of Jesus and Paul on the matter? I am most afraid of trading one incorrect system where men/institution have absoulute authority for one where I assume the same role....it does seem that accountability to one another is important......granted many will take the chance to Lord that over someone.....we need to make sure we are not Lording over our own errors. This is a great article that everyone should read. However, there is truth, there is authority. Christ and His Word are final in both. Those of us that are tired of the disjunct however with the institutional church (sign me up) and biblical teaching need to prayerfully consider our alternatives. Derek, I agree with most of what you say but we need caution when we are thinking the whenever, wherever I go argument. You really do need a local body to fellowship with, I don’t care if its in a yard, garage, etc. Think about it……who are we to be accountable to in regards to the Lord’s table which should be withheld in a discipline issue? What do we do with the issue of discipline (this is completely ignored in most churches as well)in regards to the teachings of Jesus and Paul on the matter? I am most afraid of trading one incorrect system where men/institution have absoulute authority for one where I assume the same role….it does seem that accountability to one another is important……granted many will take the chance to Lord that over someone…..we need to make sure we are not Lording over our own errors.

]]> By: Weekend Linkage #3 « A Living Alternative Our Missional Pilgrimage http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-2#comment-506111 Weekend Linkage #3 « A Living Alternative Our Missional Pilgrimage Sat, 08 Aug 2009 05:15:50 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506111 [...] blog post, I was blown away.  Until I read more.  I love this guy, especially this recent post on leaving room for churches to be wrong.  Well worth the [...] [...] blog post, I was blown away.  Until I read more.  I love this guy, especially this recent post on leaving room for churches to be wrong.  Well worth the [...]

]]> By: Derek http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-2#comment-506056 Derek Fri, 07 Aug 2009 21:32:44 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506056 I heard a story of a "church health" consultant in an unnamed denomination who was invited to help out a church. He read all their stuff and got a feeling for what they were about and was asked by his superiors to go visit them. He called up the head elder and they discussed a few things and they said, "We'll do whatever you tell us to do to get things rolling again." He said, "I'd like your elder board to resign," to silence on the other end of the phone. The man in the troubled church thanked him for his time, but they would not be needing his services. He was contacted by his superiors and asked to explain himself. He said, "These people said they were willing to do anything to rebuild their church membership. They lied." Men who are not willing to sacrifice their position of authority for the sake of reconciliation or (ahem) church growth really don't care why someone left. I heard a story of a “church health” consultant in an unnamed denomination who was invited to help out a church. He read all their stuff and got a feeling for what they were about and was asked by his superiors to go visit them. He called up the head elder and they discussed a few things and they said, “We’ll do whatever you tell us to do to get things rolling again.”

He said, “I’d like your elder board to resign,” to silence on the other end of the phone. The man in the troubled church thanked him for his time, but they would not be needing his services.

He was contacted by his superiors and asked to explain himself. He said, “These people said they were willing to do anything to rebuild their church membership. They lied.”

Men who are not willing to sacrifice their position of authority for the sake of reconciliation or (ahem) church growth really don’t care why someone left.

]]> By: Martha http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-506046 Martha Fri, 07 Aug 2009 21:03:08 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506046 Yup, Headless, that's the one. It's a weird mix of intense Anglo-convert piety, English upper-middle class snobbery, and genuine science fictional future prophecy. The bits about euthanasia - the description of the train accident, when instead of (as you'd expect) doctors and ambulances, the "ministers of euthansia" arrive, that's genuinely chilling. Even more so than the suicide clinics: "Down the steps of the great hospital on her right came figures running now, hatless, each carrying what looked like an old-fashioned camera. She knew what those men were, and her heart leaped in relief. They were the ministers of euthanasia. " It's that touch about "her heart leaped in relief" - that the idea of killing as a benison has become so accepted by the general public, that is the touch of authorial genius. Yup, Headless, that’s the one.

It’s a weird mix of intense Anglo-convert piety, English upper-middle class snobbery, and genuine science fictional future prophecy.

The bits about euthanasia – the description of the train accident, when instead of (as you’d expect) doctors and ambulances, the “ministers of euthansia” arrive, that’s genuinely chilling. Even more so than the suicide clinics:

“Down the steps of the great hospital on her right came figures running now, hatless, each carrying what looked like an old-fashioned camera. She knew what those men were, and her heart leaped in relief. They were the ministers of euthanasia. ”

It’s that touch about “her heart leaped in relief” – that the idea of killing as a benison has become so accepted by the general public, that is the touch of authorial genius.

]]> By: Martha http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-506045 Martha Fri, 07 Aug 2009 20:57:50 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506045 I'm with you on the Monday thing. Also, those who are naturally morning people. There's nothing natural about being not only wide-awake but cheerful at ungodly hours of the morning like nine a.m. If God meant us to be productive then, He wouldn't have invented afternoons :-) I’m with you on the Monday thing.

Also, those who are naturally morning people. There’s nothing natural about being not only wide-awake but cheerful at ungodly hours of the morning like nine a.m.

If God meant us to be productive then, He wouldn’t have invented afternoons :-)

]]> By: Martha http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-506044 Martha Fri, 07 Aug 2009 20:56:04 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506044 Giovanni, when did you last - if ever - hear anyone from the Reformed waxing wroth about the iniquities of the Oriental Orthodox? I would love to know! Besides, I think we need to work on beefing up the Carthusian all-in wrestling and mixed martial arts team before we tackle the monks of Mount Athos, which is why we're keeping our beaks shut in the meantime (gotta give them time to tweak their training schedule for peak fitness!) ;-) Giovanni, when did you last – if ever – hear anyone from the Reformed waxing wroth about the iniquities of the Oriental Orthodox?

I would love to know!

Besides, I think we need to work on beefing up the Carthusian all-in wrestling and mixed martial arts team before we tackle the monks of Mount Athos, which is why we’re keeping our beaks shut in the meantime (gotta give them time to tweak their training schedule for peak fitness!) ;-)

]]> By: Martha http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/leaving-room-for-churches-to-be-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-506042 Martha Fri, 07 Aug 2009 20:48:56 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4027#comment-506042 Headless, the only Christian vampire fiction I can think of off the top of my head was a story by Alan Ryan called "Following the Way" years back. You probably will not be surprised to find out that Jesuits are involved ;-) Also, some short stories by F. Paul Wilson - one has a nun vampire killer, another has a priest. Okay, these are Catholic vampire stories, but still - they're out there! (I first got the inkling I knew waaay too much about vampire fiction when I read Kim Newman's "Anno Dracula" and could identify *all* the vampires referenced in the first few chapters) :-) Headless, the only Christian vampire fiction I can think of off the top of my head was a story by Alan Ryan called “Following the Way” years back.

You probably will not be surprised to find out that Jesuits are involved ;-)

Also, some short stories by F. Paul Wilson – one has a nun vampire killer, another has a priest. Okay, these are Catholic vampire stories, but still – they’re out there!

(I first got the inkling I knew waaay too much about vampire fiction when I read Kim Newman’s “Anno Dracula” and could identify *all* the vampires referenced in the first few chapters) :-)

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