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	<title>Comments on: Julie Neidlinger&#8217;s Real Voice: The Internet Monk Interview</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-287135</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-287135</guid>
		<description>I recently subscribed to your podcasts. I thought this was a very good discussion. If this is the usual quality, I&#039;ll be a long time subscriber.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently subscribed to your podcasts. I thought this was a very good discussion. If this is the usual quality, I&#8217;ll be a long time subscriber.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Lake</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-286619</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 04:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-286619</guid>
		<description>Bob,

I agree with the churchgoer whom you quoted that too many Christian pastors (especially in America) could possibly be better described as &quot;good businessmen&quot; than &quot;holy men.&quot;  I say that carefully and obviously without certainty, not knowing these pastors&#039; hearts as God does.

However, in whose economy is a Buddhist monk truly a &quot;holy man&quot;?  Do Buddhists worship the true God of the Bible?  The Bible would seem to say no, as one must know the true God that revealed Himself to first to Israel, and later to the world, in the Person of Jesus Christ.  One must *know* this one true God in order to be able to *worship* Him in holiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob,</p>
<p>I agree with the churchgoer whom you quoted that too many Christian pastors (especially in America) could possibly be better described as &#8220;good businessmen&#8221; than &#8220;holy men.&#8221;  I say that carefully and obviously without certainty, not knowing these pastors&#8217; hearts as God does.</p>
<p>However, in whose economy is a Buddhist monk truly a &#8220;holy man&#8221;?  Do Buddhists worship the true God of the Bible?  The Bible would seem to say no, as one must know the true God that revealed Himself to first to Israel, and later to the world, in the Person of Jesus Christ.  One must *know* this one true God in order to be able to *worship* Him in holiness.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-286449</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-286449</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s fascinating that Julie seems to be at the same place many who are part of the &quot;Emerging&quot; church movement are. Dan Kimball, et al.&#039;s book title pretty well says it: _The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations_. The book _Blue Like Jazz: Non-religious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality_ is along the same lines.

If you weren&#039;t aware of these types of sentiments and you&#039;re in ministry or in church work, you&#039;ve had your head in the sand.

This is not exactly quoted, but is one of my favorite statements in Kimball&#039;s book (quoting a churchgoer): &quot;When I meet a Buddhist monk, I meet a holy man; when I meet a Christian pastor, I meet a good businessman.&quot; Ouch!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s fascinating that Julie seems to be at the same place many who are part of the &#8220;Emerging&#8221; church movement are. Dan Kimball, et al.&#8217;s book title pretty well says it: _The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations_. The book _Blue Like Jazz: Non-religious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality_ is along the same lines.</p>
<p>If you weren&#8217;t aware of these types of sentiments and you&#8217;re in ministry or in church work, you&#8217;ve had your head in the sand.</p>
<p>This is not exactly quoted, but is one of my favorite statements in Kimball&#8217;s book (quoting a churchgoer): &#8220;When I meet a Buddhist monk, I meet a holy man; when I meet a Christian pastor, I meet a good businessman.&#8221; Ouch!</p>
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		<title>By: terri</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-285523</link>
		<dc:creator>terri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-285523</guid>
		<description>Dan,

I didn&#039;t know God employed mystery shoppers.

I wonder if it&#039;s a paid-by-critique position, hourly, or simply entitles the critique-er to an upgrade of premium communion bread and wine instead of crackers and grape juice.

Seriously though...that e-mail is just so sad,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t know God employed mystery shoppers.</p>
<p>I wonder if it&#8217;s a paid-by-critique position, hourly, or simply entitles the critique-er to an upgrade of premium communion bread and wine instead of crackers and grape juice.</p>
<p>Seriously though&#8230;that e-mail is just so sad,</p>
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		<title>By: K.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-285401</link>
		<dc:creator>K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-285401</guid>
		<description>I find it interesting that this kind of post is still causing such a flurry on the internet. I&#039;ve had these conversations for over a decade about perceived relevance, forced and encouraged adolescence, and the cultural trappings of North American based christian expressions. 

Off the top of my head, I can count dozens of my friends, acquaintances, and family who no longer have anything to do with churches of many kinds. They are women and men, older and young, some who arrived at and some who grew up in the church. Many of them, including myself, were church employess at one point. 

I guess I am surprised at how these issues are considered controversial. Unless you spend all your time in a church and with its business, walking away and staying away does not surprise me. These stories are now so widespread that they are now the norm and the stories I hear of people staying are becoming more rare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it interesting that this kind of post is still causing such a flurry on the internet. I&#8217;ve had these conversations for over a decade about perceived relevance, forced and encouraged adolescence, and the cultural trappings of North American based christian expressions. </p>
<p>Off the top of my head, I can count dozens of my friends, acquaintances, and family who no longer have anything to do with churches of many kinds. They are women and men, older and young, some who arrived at and some who grew up in the church. Many of them, including myself, were church employess at one point. </p>
<p>I guess I am surprised at how these issues are considered controversial. Unless you spend all your time in a church and with its business, walking away and staying away does not surprise me. These stories are now so widespread that they are now the norm and the stories I hear of people staying are becoming more rare.</p>
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		<title>By: Aliasmoi</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-285343</link>
		<dc:creator>Aliasmoi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-285343</guid>
		<description>I loved Julie&#039;s article.  I read it, and saw many of the things that ultimately pushed me out of a traditional church and into the arms of Quakerism.

Last spring, I was forced to go to church with my now ex-boyfriend and his father.  The church was having the grand-opening of their new multi-million dollar building, and the whole service was dedicated to, &quot;Aren&#039;t we wonderful and cool?&quot;  But, I could barely pay any attention to the sermon because I was so distracted/stumbled by the presence of a two story slide in the &quot;children&#039;s zone.&quot;  I kept looking at the thing thinking 1) It&#039;s a lawsuit waiting to happen.  2) For what they spent on just that slide, they could have paid the rent of a needy family for 6 months, bought groceries for a needy family for a year, or established a college fund for church youth who want to go into ministry (Bible college).  But, no, they somehow think a two story slide is going to win young souls for Jesus.  My meeting meets in an old converted wash house on a farm.  Guess what?  God is still there.  Actually, God is more real/present to me there than He had been for a very long time in a traditional church.

A single - never married - woman is a pariah in a traditional church.  After I crossed my 30th birthday people started thinking (and sometimes saying) there must be something wrong with me that I haven&#039;t caught a husband yet.  They started praying out loud - in church - for me to get a husband.  But, I couldn&#039;t get within ten feet of a man without the whole church having to stop and take notice of the fact.  I really started to feel like I would have been less of an object of curiosity/pity/outright derision if I had been married and gotten divorced.

And, don&#039;t even get me started on this culture that encourages worthlessness in men.  1 Timothy 5:8 says that a man who doesn&#039;t work to provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.  But, I&#039;ve seen several instances over the last twenty years of men in church who didn&#039;t work.  Who let their wives support them, and not only did the church not put them on the carpet for this behavior, they were allowed to hold positions of authority in the church!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I loved Julie&#8217;s article.  I read it, and saw many of the things that ultimately pushed me out of a traditional church and into the arms of Quakerism.</p>
<p>Last spring, I was forced to go to church with my now ex-boyfriend and his father.  The church was having the grand-opening of their new multi-million dollar building, and the whole service was dedicated to, &#8220;Aren&#8217;t we wonderful and cool?&#8221;  But, I could barely pay any attention to the sermon because I was so distracted/stumbled by the presence of a two story slide in the &#8220;children&#8217;s zone.&#8221;  I kept looking at the thing thinking 1) It&#8217;s a lawsuit waiting to happen.  2) For what they spent on just that slide, they could have paid the rent of a needy family for 6 months, bought groceries for a needy family for a year, or established a college fund for church youth who want to go into ministry (Bible college).  But, no, they somehow think a two story slide is going to win young souls for Jesus.  My meeting meets in an old converted wash house on a farm.  Guess what?  God is still there.  Actually, God is more real/present to me there than He had been for a very long time in a traditional church.</p>
<p>A single &#8211; never married &#8211; woman is a pariah in a traditional church.  After I crossed my 30th birthday people started thinking (and sometimes saying) there must be something wrong with me that I haven&#8217;t caught a husband yet.  They started praying out loud &#8211; in church &#8211; for me to get a husband.  But, I couldn&#8217;t get within ten feet of a man without the whole church having to stop and take notice of the fact.  I really started to feel like I would have been less of an object of curiosity/pity/outright derision if I had been married and gotten divorced.</p>
<p>And, don&#8217;t even get me started on this culture that encourages worthlessness in men.  <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Timothy+5%3A8" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Timothy 5:8">1 Timothy 5:8</a> says that a man who doesn&#8217;t work to provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.  But, I&#8217;ve seen several instances over the last twenty years of men in church who didn&#8217;t work.  Who let their wives support them, and not only did the church not put them on the carpet for this behavior, they were allowed to hold positions of authority in the church!</p>
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		<title>By: catherine</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-285282</link>
		<dc:creator>catherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-285282</guid>
		<description>I really loved Julie&#039;s post, and thought her both brave and honest for saying it. I felt quite a tug reading it because it expressed so much of what I&#039;d felt although in different circumstances in a different church. 

I eventually found my spiritual home in monasticism, because (and I realised this only once I&#039;d found it) what I was looking for was an authentic, lived faith in which church was but one expression. I can tolerate the idiosyncrasies of my parish church because it&#039;s not my spiritual home. Don&#039;t misunderstand that: it&#039;s still a very important part of my life, but it&#039;s not where my heart finds nourishment. That&#039;s the monastery.

If it&#039;s what she&#039;s looking for, I hope Julie finds a spiritual home that feels &#039;right&#039; to her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really loved Julie&#8217;s post, and thought her both brave and honest for saying it. I felt quite a tug reading it because it expressed so much of what I&#8217;d felt although in different circumstances in a different church. </p>
<p>I eventually found my spiritual home in monasticism, because (and I realised this only once I&#8217;d found it) what I was looking for was an authentic, lived faith in which church was but one expression. I can tolerate the idiosyncrasies of my parish church because it&#8217;s not my spiritual home. Don&#8217;t misunderstand that: it&#8217;s still a very important part of my life, but it&#8217;s not where my heart finds nourishment. That&#8217;s the monastery.</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s what she&#8217;s looking for, I hope Julie finds a spiritual home that feels &#8216;right&#8217; to her.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Schwegler</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-285175</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Schwegler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-285175</guid>
		<description>The present-day attractional churches seem to be doing their best to live by the motto, &quot;A youth group for every age group.&quot;  As more and more churches emulate them, it becomes harder to find a place where one feels encouraged to be a grownup.

Ironically, as Will Humes implies, the attractional gimmicks are starting to run their course.  There simply aren&#039;t enough interested youth and young families to pack every church which is presently trying to attract them, and many churches are turning themselves upside down to draw in people who have already been drawn elsewhere.  In essence, they are driving away serious believers like Julie for little or nothing in return.  That&#039;s pretty sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The present-day attractional churches seem to be doing their best to live by the motto, &#8220;A youth group for every age group.&#8221;  As more and more churches emulate them, it becomes harder to find a place where one feels encouraged to be a grownup.</p>
<p>Ironically, as Will Humes implies, the attractional gimmicks are starting to run their course.  There simply aren&#8217;t enough interested youth and young families to pack every church which is presently trying to attract them, and many churches are turning themselves upside down to draw in people who have already been drawn elsewhere.  In essence, they are driving away serious believers like Julie for little or nothing in return.  That&#8217;s pretty sad.</p>
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		<title>By: Obed</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-284799</link>
		<dc:creator>Obed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-284799</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s so much good stuff in this interview and the original post.  As a fellow shy, introverted artistic-type, I can seriously dig her admission that her inability to fit in is a part of the problem.  That&#039;s been a battle I&#039;ve been fighting for the last year or so as I&#039;ve been halfheartedly trying to find a new church.

At my old church, I&#039;d been seriously frustrated for years as I constantly saw myself and other &quot;lay leaders&quot; being sucked dry just so that the machine of the church could keep running.  Eventually, I realized that I just couldn&#039;t take dying on the vine anymore and had to bail.  The worst part about it manifested in the meeting I had with the church elders to tell them I was leaving.  I was the leader of the praise band, and I told them I didn&#039;t want to go through another season of the fall holy days, &#039;cuz putting on a big show for the holy days was the #1 thing that was spiritually killing me.  They begged and insisted that I stay on through the Fall Feasts.  My spiritual needs didn&#039;t matter as much as keeping the Big Show going.  I think it&#039;ll take a long time for me to not have a bit of bitterness over that.

One more thing: regarding the family-focus issue, here&#039;s a funny story.  When I served as a deacon at my old church I was the only single among them.  In fact, I think I was the only single EVER to serve as a deacon in that church.  In our elder/deacon meetings, inevitably someone would pray that God would send me a wife, much to my annoyance. One meeting after the prayer, one of the elders said, &quot;You know, I think the only person not bothered by [Obed&#039;s] singleness is [Obed]!&quot;  Everybody laughed and acknowledged that it was silly for everyone but me to be so worried about me getting a wife.  But they still prayed for it every meeting...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s so much good stuff in this interview and the original post.  As a fellow shy, introverted artistic-type, I can seriously dig her admission that her inability to fit in is a part of the problem.  That&#8217;s been a battle I&#8217;ve been fighting for the last year or so as I&#8217;ve been halfheartedly trying to find a new church.</p>
<p>At my old church, I&#8217;d been seriously frustrated for years as I constantly saw myself and other &#8220;lay leaders&#8221; being sucked dry just so that the machine of the church could keep running.  Eventually, I realized that I just couldn&#8217;t take dying on the vine anymore and had to bail.  The worst part about it manifested in the meeting I had with the church elders to tell them I was leaving.  I was the leader of the praise band, and I told them I didn&#8217;t want to go through another season of the fall holy days, &#8216;cuz putting on a big show for the holy days was the #1 thing that was spiritually killing me.  They begged and insisted that I stay on through the Fall Feasts.  My spiritual needs didn&#8217;t matter as much as keeping the Big Show going.  I think it&#8217;ll take a long time for me to not have a bit of bitterness over that.</p>
<p>One more thing: regarding the family-focus issue, here&#8217;s a funny story.  When I served as a deacon at my old church I was the only single among them.  In fact, I think I was the only single EVER to serve as a deacon in that church.  In our elder/deacon meetings, inevitably someone would pray that God would send me a wife, much to my annoyance. One meeting after the prayer, one of the elders said, &#8220;You know, I think the only person not bothered by [Obed's] singleness is [Obed]!&#8221;  Everybody laughed and acknowledged that it was silly for everyone but me to be so worried about me getting a wife.  But they still prayed for it every meeting&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Sanders</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview/comment-page-1#comment-284493</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Sanders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 04:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/julie-neidlingers-read-voice-the-internet-monk-interview#comment-284493</guid>
		<description>Michael, thanks for putting up this post. Julie&#039;s article was great and I find myself having some of the same thoughts about the contemporary church. She has several other articles on her site that are really good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, thanks for putting up this post. Julie&#8217;s article was great and I find myself having some of the same thoughts about the contemporary church. She has several other articles on her site that are really good.</p>
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