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	<title>Comments on: Jesus=Salvation</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Seeker006</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-191903</link>
		<dc:creator>Seeker006</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-191903</guid>
		<description>Michael, I just read your article â€œOur Problem with Graceâ€ and I loved it; it was just what I needed to hear today.  Iâ€™ve always struggled with legalism and recently Iâ€™ve been thinking about how often it seems that Godâ€™s love is almost dismissed, used to guilt people into obedience or made totally useless.  Often, when listening to some people talk about it, the Gospel seems to be most comparable to an insurance policy; verses like John 3:16 are the sales pitch, but just like an insurance company, once you try to file a claim, the sales pitch will be forgotten and the fine print will be the deciding factor.  The positive verses are just to get us in the door, and then youâ€™re given the â€œrealâ€ thing once inside; sure, the â€œloveâ€ parts are still true, but relatively unimportant compared to the rules, and therefore, to focus much attention on Godâ€™s love, without tossing in some works, would be useless, at best, or downright detrimental to everyone.

I tend to gravitate towards legalism, because â€œfollow the rules and God will accept you, but otherwise youâ€™re toastâ€ just seems so right (which, I guess, is why every other religion seems to go with that idea), but I have never had legalism really prompt me to be a better person.   It usually just makes me notice my faults and make the gap between me and God seem even more impassible.  On the other hand, Godâ€™s grace, when it gets through my thick skull, increases my desire to please God, and makes overcoming my shortcomings seem more possible; because instead of worrying that my connection to God has been severed, Iâ€™m able to turn to God for help, when I need it the most.  So, I can definitely support anyone teaching grace.  I also enjoyed your comment that God seems to enjoy â€œtweaking our noses when obedience, not grace, starts to become the focus.â€  Iâ€™ve often thought that God seems to like doing things differently than weâ€™d expect; as if Heâ€™s really just trying to get us to understand that, unlike what the devil told Adam and Eve, we canâ€™t be like God, because He is so far beyond us and thatâ€™s what makes Him God.  

The way I understand things, God wants us to be righteous, not just to do righteous things.  The people who support legalism seem to miss the distinction that I see there.  Theyâ€™d say that if you had a vault full of money and gave two friends a key, if neither one stole anything, one on the basis of friendship and the other because he knew heâ€™d be punished, that the one concerned about punishment is as righteous as the other; if not more righteous, some would argue.  I donâ€™t see it that way, so much; Iâ€™d suspect that they werenâ€™t as much my friend as the one who didnâ€™t steal from me because they loved me.

Also, when legalists ask: If weâ€™re saved by grace alone, without our actions coming into play, then whatâ€™s to keep us from living in sin?  I think they have a great question, but they should be asking themselves that question instead.  Why shouldnâ€™t they keep sinning?  To me, what they are implying is that there is absolutely no good reason to stop sinning, other than the possibility of going to hell.  â€œIf given a key to a vault full of cash, NOBODY would pass up the chance to steal some if they knew they wouldnâ€™t get caught!  God just wants to spoil our fun, so weâ€™ll stop doing the things we really WANT to do and settle for what God wants us to do instead, so that we can go to heaven.â€  Is there no good reason to stop sinning?  Is virtue not its own reward?  Is sin not something that takes away from our lives and hurts others as well?  Does Godâ€™s love not make them want to please Him by sharing it with others? (Okay, so I can use it to guilt people too)

Of course, Iâ€™m not suggesting that Iâ€™m more righteous than they are; because Iâ€™m certainly not, Iâ€™m sure, not by a long shot. And Iâ€™m also not suggesting that these people are bad people either; in fact, Iâ€™m counting on their love for God.  Iâ€™d ask them these questions not because I think theyâ€™d answer in the negative, but because Iâ€™d expect most to agree that there are plenty of good reasons not to sin. In which case, why do we need to promote works instead of grace?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I just read your article â€œOur Problem with Graceâ€ and I loved it; it was just what I needed to hear today.  Iâ€™ve always struggled with legalism and recently Iâ€™ve been thinking about how often it seems that Godâ€™s love is almost dismissed, used to guilt people into obedience or made totally useless.  Often, when listening to some people talk about it, the Gospel seems to be most comparable to an insurance policy; verses like John 3:16 are the sales pitch, but just like an insurance company, once you try to file a claim, the sales pitch will be forgotten and the fine print will be the deciding factor.  The positive verses are just to get us in the door, and then youâ€™re given the â€œrealâ€ thing once inside; sure, the â€œloveâ€ parts are still true, but relatively unimportant compared to the rules, and therefore, to focus much attention on Godâ€™s love, without tossing in some works, would be useless, at best, or downright detrimental to everyone.</p>
<p>I tend to gravitate towards legalism, because â€œfollow the rules and God will accept you, but otherwise youâ€™re toastâ€ just seems so right (which, I guess, is why every other religion seems to go with that idea), but I have never had legalism really prompt me to be a better person.   It usually just makes me notice my faults and make the gap between me and God seem even more impassible.  On the other hand, Godâ€™s grace, when it gets through my thick skull, increases my desire to please God, and makes overcoming my shortcomings seem more possible; because instead of worrying that my connection to God has been severed, Iâ€™m able to turn to God for help, when I need it the most.  So, I can definitely support anyone teaching grace.  I also enjoyed your comment that God seems to enjoy â€œtweaking our noses when obedience, not grace, starts to become the focus.â€  Iâ€™ve often thought that God seems to like doing things differently than weâ€™d expect; as if Heâ€™s really just trying to get us to understand that, unlike what the devil told Adam and Eve, we canâ€™t be like God, because He is so far beyond us and thatâ€™s what makes Him God.  </p>
<p>The way I understand things, God wants us to be righteous, not just to do righteous things.  The people who support legalism seem to miss the distinction that I see there.  Theyâ€™d say that if you had a vault full of money and gave two friends a key, if neither one stole anything, one on the basis of friendship and the other because he knew heâ€™d be punished, that the one concerned about punishment is as righteous as the other; if not more righteous, some would argue.  I donâ€™t see it that way, so much; Iâ€™d suspect that they werenâ€™t as much my friend as the one who didnâ€™t steal from me because they loved me.</p>
<p>Also, when legalists ask: If weâ€™re saved by grace alone, without our actions coming into play, then whatâ€™s to keep us from living in sin?  I think they have a great question, but they should be asking themselves that question instead.  Why shouldnâ€™t they keep sinning?  To me, what they are implying is that there is absolutely no good reason to stop sinning, other than the possibility of going to hell.  â€œIf given a key to a vault full of cash, NOBODY would pass up the chance to steal some if they knew they wouldnâ€™t get caught!  God just wants to spoil our fun, so weâ€™ll stop doing the things we really WANT to do and settle for what God wants us to do instead, so that we can go to heaven.â€  Is there no good reason to stop sinning?  Is virtue not its own reward?  Is sin not something that takes away from our lives and hurts others as well?  Does Godâ€™s love not make them want to please Him by sharing it with others? (Okay, so I can use it to guilt people too)</p>
<p>Of course, Iâ€™m not suggesting that Iâ€™m more righteous than they are; because Iâ€™m certainly not, Iâ€™m sure, not by a long shot. And Iâ€™m also not suggesting that these people are bad people either; in fact, Iâ€™m counting on their love for God.  Iâ€™d ask them these questions not because I think theyâ€™d answer in the negative, but because Iâ€™d expect most to agree that there are plenty of good reasons not to sin. In which case, why do we need to promote works instead of grace?</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-191097</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-191097</guid>
		<description>I have bounced around and through this issue for all of my adult life.  It seems to me that what we have is the revelation of two parallel truths.  The first is that God is a sovereign chooser, it&#039;s all over the Scriptures, and in my mind indisputable.  The other is that there are countless appeals throughout God&#039;s Word to the will and choice of people to repent.  This too seems to be indisputable.  How the two connect, intersect, or fit together seems to exist in the realm of mystery.  With our limited understanding this element of mystery is inevitable.  I have finally decided to be OK with that:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have bounced around and through this issue for all of my adult life.  It seems to me that what we have is the revelation of two parallel truths.  The first is that God is a sovereign chooser, it&#8217;s all over the Scriptures, and in my mind indisputable.  The other is that there are countless appeals throughout God&#8217;s Word to the will and choice of people to repent.  This too seems to be indisputable.  How the two connect, intersect, or fit together seems to exist in the realm of mystery.  With our limited understanding this element of mystery is inevitable.  I have finally decided to be OK with that:-)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-190972</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-190972</guid>
		<description>Bruce:

Let me ask similar questions:

1) If I don&#039;t have a Roman view of the church as an institution (franchise) founded by Jesus to do business, then I believe the church exists as a community and movement &quot;around&quot; Jesus, the Gospel and the sacraments.

So I don&#039;t believe the &quot;keys&quot; is a kind of organizational paperwork that says &quot;the church forgives.&quot;

The church provides witness to forgiveness in its own life, community, water, table and discipline. But God&#039;s forgiveness is a Kingdom work, and therefore is not limited to the church, but occurs routinely outsie of it. The church witnesses to it and points to it and affirms it. It does not dispense it accept when that witness is baptism and the Lord&#039;s Supper.

I don&#039;t believe in a localized Jesus or a franchised Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce:</p>
<p>Let me ask similar questions:</p>
<p>1) If I don&#8217;t have a Roman view of the church as an institution (franchise) founded by Jesus to do business, then I believe the church exists as a community and movement &#8220;around&#8221; Jesus, the Gospel and the sacraments.</p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t believe the &#8220;keys&#8221; is a kind of organizational paperwork that says &#8220;the church forgives.&#8221;</p>
<p>The church provides witness to forgiveness in its own life, community, water, table and discipline. But God&#8217;s forgiveness is a Kingdom work, and therefore is not limited to the church, but occurs routinely outsie of it. The church witnesses to it and points to it and affirms it. It does not dispense it accept when that witness is baptism and the Lord&#8217;s Supper.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe in a localized Jesus or a franchised Church.</p>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-190932</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-190932</guid>
		<description>Michael, I linked to your article, Out of Business with God. I agree fundamentally with almost everything. However, this quote caused me to pause. &quot;The church is not the custodians of a system of forgiveness. Here is where the confusion comes for me. Jesus seems to say pretty clearly that the church IS the custodian of forgiveness.
&quot;I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.&quot; Matthew 16:19  
&quot;If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.&quot;  John 20:23
Can you reconcile these verses with your aforementioned quote? I absolutely abhor &quot;decisions&quot;, transactions&quot;, &quot;joinin&#039; up with Jesus&quot; kinds of preaching, but let&#039;s not throw the baby out with the bath water.
I don&#039;t want to misconstrue or decouple your comments from their proper context,....but... help me understand, Michael.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I linked to your article, Out of Business with God. I agree fundamentally with almost everything. However, this quote caused me to pause. &#8220;The church is not the custodians of a system of forgiveness. Here is where the confusion comes for me. Jesus seems to say pretty clearly that the church IS the custodian of forgiveness.<br />
&#8220;I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.&#8221; Matthew 16:19<br />
&#8220;If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.&#8221;  John 20:23<br />
Can you reconcile these verses with your aforementioned quote? I absolutely abhor &#8220;decisions&#8221;, transactions&#8221;, &#8220;joinin&#8217; up with Jesus&#8221; kinds of preaching, but let&#8217;s not throw the baby out with the bath water.<br />
I don&#8217;t want to misconstrue or decouple your comments from their proper context,&#8230;.but&#8230; help me understand, Michael.</p>
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		<title>By: steve yates</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-190920</link>
		<dc:creator>steve yates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-190920</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m confused about the quote. Is Capon saying that &quot;those in hell can still be saved&quot; when he says hell is not outside the realm of grace?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m confused about the quote. Is Capon saying that &#8220;those in hell can still be saved&#8221; when he says hell is not outside the realm of grace?</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-190903</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-190903</guid>
		<description>When I first read him I paused thinking, â€œwhoa, thatâ€™s suspiciousâ€.  But after pondering some of his work on the parables, particularly the Prodigal, it struck me with that fear you and I have been discussing about â€œhow far do you really like graceâ€.  What struck me about it is this, most who hold a residual â€œlegalâ€ feel for God will read Capon and think, â€œHeâ€™s waaaaay over the topâ€¦sin all you like.â€  But it donned on me in that parable what Capon was saying in one fail swoop was 200% unadulterated Law and Gospel.  His pure heart of the Law there is so furiously selfless that it is utterly terrorizing, that unforgiveness of the elder son we feel, THAT sin that keeps us from grace.  Many would read Capon as loose with grace there, but in fact his Law is so strong itâ€™s missed completely by the â€˜legalâ€™ mind, blown right by.  Because it never occurs to such a mind IT is the one in danger of eternal wrath it so clings to a legal setting of things right. 
   
In other words Capon is not loose at all with Law or Grace, but PURE.  Itâ€™s so pure the legal mind NEVER catches it or is so over taken by it â€“ it must jettison it immediately (because the death of the â€œdoerâ€ must die, especially the religious doer, old Adam), so if it did comprehend it - it would be terrorized to death!  Because the level, that sin or level or degree or magnitude of a sin or sins that everyone of us reaches and say to ourselves, â€œWhoaaa, IF thatâ€™s grace, if THAT gets into heaven, Iâ€™ll have no part of itâ€ (the older brother).  There is some level in all of us that say, â€œIf that gets into heaven, if thereâ€™s no improvementâ€¦if thatâ€™s grace, Iâ€™m not taking part of itâ€.  And THAT scares the hell out of me about myself MORE by infinite leaps and bounds than any of the typical â€œgross or negative sinsâ€ that we typically list out.  Because thereâ€™s the man who locks the gates of hell from the inside (as Lewis says) on himself and actually refuses free grace!  Thatâ€™s the man within me that is the GREATEST sinner, not the â€œnegative oneâ€™sâ€ we typically list out or even the omissions of sin.  Capon, here, brings forth a 200 proof law that the legal mind simply blows over.  And many miss that, for example, those who interpret the Rich Young Ruler as a â€œGospel callâ€ are really exercising antinomianism (legalism and antinomianism are actually the same thing).

Great article Michael, great one!

Yours truly,

Larry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I first read him I paused thinking, â€œwhoa, thatâ€™s suspiciousâ€.  But after pondering some of his work on the parables, particularly the Prodigal, it struck me with that fear you and I have been discussing about â€œhow far do you really like graceâ€.  What struck me about it is this, most who hold a residual â€œlegalâ€ feel for God will read Capon and think, â€œHeâ€™s waaaaay over the topâ€¦sin all you like.â€  But it donned on me in that parable what Capon was saying in one fail swoop was 200% unadulterated Law and Gospel.  His pure heart of the Law there is so furiously selfless that it is utterly terrorizing, that unforgiveness of the elder son we feel, THAT sin that keeps us from grace.  Many would read Capon as loose with grace there, but in fact his Law is so strong itâ€™s missed completely by the â€˜legalâ€™ mind, blown right by.  Because it never occurs to such a mind IT is the one in danger of eternal wrath it so clings to a legal setting of things right. </p>
<p>In other words Capon is not loose at all with Law or Grace, but PURE.  Itâ€™s so pure the legal mind NEVER catches it or is so over taken by it â€“ it must jettison it immediately (because the death of the â€œdoerâ€ must die, especially the religious doer, old Adam), so if it did comprehend it &#8211; it would be terrorized to death!  Because the level, that sin or level or degree or magnitude of a sin or sins that everyone of us reaches and say to ourselves, â€œWhoaaa, IF thatâ€™s grace, if THAT gets into heaven, Iâ€™ll have no part of itâ€ (the older brother).  There is some level in all of us that say, â€œIf that gets into heaven, if thereâ€™s no improvementâ€¦if thatâ€™s grace, Iâ€™m not taking part of itâ€.  And THAT scares the hell out of me about myself MORE by infinite leaps and bounds than any of the typical â€œgross or negative sinsâ€ that we typically list out.  Because thereâ€™s the man who locks the gates of hell from the inside (as Lewis says) on himself and actually refuses free grace!  Thatâ€™s the man within me that is the GREATEST sinner, not the â€œnegative oneâ€™sâ€ we typically list out or even the omissions of sin.  Capon, here, brings forth a 200 proof law that the legal mind simply blows over.  And many miss that, for example, those who interpret the Rich Young Ruler as a â€œGospel callâ€ are really exercising antinomianism (legalism and antinomianism are actually the same thing).</p>
<p>Great article Michael, great one!</p>
<p>Yours truly,</p>
<p>Larry</p>
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		<title>By: Wolf Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-190683</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolf Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-190683</guid>
		<description>In case you want to read for yourself what Capon has to say about universalism before you get around to obtaining and reading his books, here is a quote by the man about the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Farrar_Capon

Sure sounds good to me, but then I never subscribed to the tULIP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case you want to read for yourself what Capon has to say about universalism before you get around to obtaining and reading his books, here is a quote by the man about the subject:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Farrar_Capon" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Farrar_Capon</a></p>
<p>Sure sounds good to me, but then I never subscribed to the tULIP.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-5659</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-5659</guid>
		<description>BTW- Capon is not a universalist. Close, but not one. His views on hell are the same as CSLewis in &quot;Great Divorce.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW- Capon is not a universalist. Close, but not one. His views on hell are the same as CSLewis in &#8220;Great Divorce.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Rod</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-5658</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-5658</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I think I agree with Capon&#039;s analysis of the problem. I don&#039;t think I agree with his &quot;cure.&quot; Interestlying enough, I do agree with your practical application of his theory. But I think there is a better way to get there. At least that&#039;s what I think now.

Rod

P.S. Some of the bullies who have been savaging Wright have apparently tagged my blog as spam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I think I agree with Capon&#8217;s analysis of the problem. I don&#8217;t think I agree with his &#8220;cure.&#8221; Interestlying enough, I do agree with your practical application of his theory. But I think there is a better way to get there. At least that&#8217;s what I think now.</p>
<p>Rod</p>
<p>P.S. Some of the bullies who have been savaging Wright have apparently tagged my blog as spam.</p>
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		<title>By: Rong</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation/comment-page-1#comment-5657</link>
		<dc:creator>Rong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesussalvation#comment-5657</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure about making my head &#039;asplode&#039; but you&#039;re sure making it explode - or maybe it&#039;s implode as I have to rethink the way I think.

Reading your blog is like being strapped to The Rack and getting stretched!

Please sir may I have some more!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure about making my head &#8216;asplode&#8217; but you&#8217;re sure making it explode &#8211; or maybe it&#8217;s implode as I have to rethink the way I think.</p>
<p>Reading your blog is like being strapped to The Rack and getting stretched!</p>
<p>Please sir may I have some more!</p>
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