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	<title>Comments on: Jesus, Tongue Piercing and The Culture War</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Heteroclite</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-94754</link>
		<dc:creator>Heteroclite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 20:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-94754</guid>
		<description>Fair enough, iMonk.  I am new here, and do not know this troll character (tho I probably LOOK like one :)  ).  Sorry if my writing resembled him.  I&#039;m glad I can at least still read your site; I agree with you 90% of the time, and have learned tremendously from your postings.

Shalom!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, iMonk.  I am new here, and do not know this troll character (tho I probably LOOK like one <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   ).  Sorry if my writing resembled him.  I&#8217;m glad I can at least still read your site; I agree with you 90% of the time, and have learned tremendously from your postings.</p>
<p>Shalom!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-94749</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 20:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-94749</guid>
		<description>c.t. is a troll of this blog who posts under various names.

You can post, but I won&#039;t post anything else on this thread. For starters, posting long copied citations is not what the comments are for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>c.t. is a troll of this blog who posts under various names.</p>
<p>You can post, but I won&#8217;t post anything else on this thread. For starters, posting long copied citations is not what the comments are for.</p>
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		<title>By: Heteroclite</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-94744</link>
		<dc:creator>Heteroclite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 19:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-94744</guid>
		<description>imonk:  What is &quot;c.t.&quot;---claptrap?   :)  And I&#039;m not clear as to why I&#039;m being banned; please advise.

Christmas (which I joyfully celebrate---complete with Advent) is a matter of conscience:  a believer doesn&#039;t need to celebrate it, but neither is it a sin if one does.  Ditto for Easter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>imonk:  What is &#8220;c.t.&#8221;&#8212;claptrap?   <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   And I&#8217;m not clear as to why I&#8217;m being banned; please advise.</p>
<p>Christmas (which I joyfully celebrate&#8212;complete with Advent) is a matter of conscience:  a believer doesn&#8217;t need to celebrate it, but neither is it a sin if one does.  Ditto for Easter.</p>
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		<title>By: Heteroclite</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-94735</link>
		<dc:creator>Heteroclite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 18:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-94735</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;MODERATOR NOTE: I am allowing this comment so the commenter gets to make his point. I will not approve any further comments by this commenter. Judge for yourself what you&#039;re reading. I suspect this is c.t., but on the outside shot it&#039;s not, here it is.

And don&#039;t get your mother any earrings for Christmas. Of course, Christmas is pagan as well.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;

iMonk asks:  &quot;How does this qualify as a defilement?&quot;

I guess you&#039;d have to ask an Auschwitz survivor.

But in case you can&#039;t get a hold of one, let&#039;s put it this way:  let&#039;s say I come up to you and start puncturing your skin with a needle, or gashing it with some broken glass or a razor.  Would that qualify as an act of affection on my part?  Or would it perhaps more accurately be described as a violation, a defilement of your person?

Now, if that illustration still isn&#039;t compelling, then we could add some more info for consideration: 

(1)&quot;For [BM devotees], the more radical piercings are self-consciously religious experiences. This association with paganism is known, understood and cherished. The piercings, etc., are regarded as rituals. Rituals take place in urban settings: libraries, public parks, warehouses, abandoned city sites. Rituals take many forms: piercing, tattooing, branding and scarification in private and public ceremonies, S/M [sado-masochistic] psychodramas in private dungeons, technoshamanic trance dances at underground Rave parties, psychedelic shamanism, in living rooms--any activity capable of producing the direct experience of spiritual truth and healing in the participant. Consider the mindset of someone who regards mutilation as healing!&quot;   


(2) &quot;[I]n the East, with their widely recognized symbols of religious faith and devotion, tattoos often clearly were intended to serve a purpose beyond simple expressions of decoration and identification. Many early tattoos clearly had a cosmic connection and wove early man into the fabric of the larger universe. 

Early cultures often inscribed themselves with animal images and totems, probably in an effort to evoke the power of the animal spirits, possibly for success in the hunt, but also for protection. Even today, in one of the remotest parts of the planet, the Kayan tribesman in Borneo receives a pair of hand-tapped tattoos on both shoulders to guarantee his safe passage, as a departed soul, across the River of the Dead. These are tattoos with roots back to a time when the when the meaning was much more than skin deep and beyond simple decoration.  	

Historically, and from a cultural-anthropological stand-point, some of the earliest tattoos had a spiritual connection. Animal images were popular with tribesmen because of the desire of the tattoo recipient to become identified with the animal spirit. The ritual involved in getting a tattoo, the very act of submitting to pain, is one way to bring the spirit alive and prompt the discovery of the God within. The spiritual leader of the tribe, the Shaman or the Medicine Man, in particular, needed ornaments to indicate his special relationship with the spirits or gods -- and his control or power over them. Tattoos were part of his arsenal, along with other amulets in the form of shells, horns, antlers, claws and teeth of animals. 

The tribe’s dominant symbols were powerful icons representing their belief systems. It has been suggested by philosopher James Hillman that our most potent symbols do not just emanate from the soul, but are actually what the soul is made of. &quot;In the beginning was the word?&quot; Perhaps not. We are beginning to hear the argument that, even before ‘the word’, was the symbol and the myth. But let us save our metaphysical musings for something more tangible but no less astonishing -- the tattoo as talisman or savior.

 A recurring theme in religious or spiritual tattoos concerns the afterlife. The great mystery of life and existence has fuelled myth, magic and special rites in almost every culture around the world. Amazingly, from the MAORI in New Zealand, to the SIOUX in North Dakota, to the IBAN tribes up the Skrang River in Borneo, the tattoo is nothing less than a passport to the world beyond. You simply could not leave home without it, not if you wanted admittance or any sort of status ‘on the other shore’. The right tattoo could ensure favor with deities, without which the dying person would not be recognized in the land of the spirits. In head-hunter country in Borneo, the tattoo also served as a torch to light the way across the river that ran through the Land of the Dead. Departed souls had to venture up this treacherous river to reach the long-houses of their most heroic ancestors. So arduous was this journey that only the most heavily tattooed tribesman could complete the journey.

Likewise, the final destination for the spirit of the SIOUX warrior was known as &#039;Many Lodges&#039;, and his tattoos played a crucial role in the journey. Success was only possible if he had been appropriately marked on the forehead, wrist and possibly on the tip of the chin. Legend has it that an old woman checked the tattoos of all the passing spirits. The un-tattooed would be dropped over a cliff, a most ignoble return to the land of the living, where he would wander aimlessly for eternity. 

For many indigenous people around the world, a return to traditional tribal tattooing practices has been a powerful way to re-ignite a cultural renaissance and to reclaim a spiritual link to their past. This fact has no doubt played an important role in the widespread popularity of tribal tattooing today.&quot;

(3) &quot;Ronald Scutt, in his exhaustive book, ART, SEX &amp; SYMBOL, covers a lot about the history and culture of tattoos. He documents that most of the time tattoos are associated with spiritual, religious and mystical purposes; linking it to mystical significance, sun-worship, serpent worship, and the sun-god Baal.&quot;

Sources:
(1) http://tinyurl.com/2w2jya
(2) http://tinyurl.com/2w4d78
(3) http://tinyurl.com/27nfe5

(Notice that the injunction in LEVITICUS against body mutilation is firmly embedded in a context of prohibitions against other pagan practices.  So, it is a PAGAN practice.  Does the New Covenant mean we can now indulge in various forms of paganism?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em><strong>MODERATOR NOTE: I am allowing this comment so the commenter gets to make his point. I will not approve any further comments by this commenter. Judge for yourself what you&#8217;re reading. I suspect this is c.t., but on the outside shot it&#8217;s not, here it is.</p>
<p>And don&#8217;t get your mother any earrings for Christmas. Of course, Christmas is pagan as well.</strong></em></p>
<p>iMonk asks:  &#8220;How does this qualify as a defilement?&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess you&#8217;d have to ask an Auschwitz survivor.</p>
<p>But in case you can&#8217;t get a hold of one, let&#8217;s put it this way:  let&#8217;s say I come up to you and start puncturing your skin with a needle, or gashing it with some broken glass or a razor.  Would that qualify as an act of affection on my part?  Or would it perhaps more accurately be described as a violation, a defilement of your person?</p>
<p>Now, if that illustration still isn&#8217;t compelling, then we could add some more info for consideration: </p>
<p>(1)&#8221;For [BM devotees], the more radical piercings are self-consciously religious experiences. This association with paganism is known, understood and cherished. The piercings, etc., are regarded as rituals. Rituals take place in urban settings: libraries, public parks, warehouses, abandoned city sites. Rituals take many forms: piercing, tattooing, branding and scarification in private and public ceremonies, S/M [sado-masochistic] psychodramas in private dungeons, technoshamanic trance dances at underground Rave parties, psychedelic shamanism, in living rooms&#8211;any activity capable of producing the direct experience of spiritual truth and healing in the participant. Consider the mindset of someone who regards mutilation as healing!&#8221;   </p>
<p>(2) &#8220;[I]n the East, with their widely recognized symbols of religious faith and devotion, tattoos often clearly were intended to serve a purpose beyond simple expressions of decoration and identification. Many early tattoos clearly had a cosmic connection and wove early man into the fabric of the larger universe. </p>
<p>Early cultures often inscribed themselves with animal images and totems, probably in an effort to evoke the power of the animal spirits, possibly for success in the hunt, but also for protection. Even today, in one of the remotest parts of the planet, the Kayan tribesman in Borneo receives a pair of hand-tapped tattoos on both shoulders to guarantee his safe passage, as a departed soul, across the River of the Dead. These are tattoos with roots back to a time when the when the meaning was much more than skin deep and beyond simple decoration.  	</p>
<p>Historically, and from a cultural-anthropological stand-point, some of the earliest tattoos had a spiritual connection. Animal images were popular with tribesmen because of the desire of the tattoo recipient to become identified with the animal spirit. The ritual involved in getting a tattoo, the very act of submitting to pain, is one way to bring the spirit alive and prompt the discovery of the God within. The spiritual leader of the tribe, the Shaman or the Medicine Man, in particular, needed ornaments to indicate his special relationship with the spirits or gods &#8212; and his control or power over them. Tattoos were part of his arsenal, along with other amulets in the form of shells, horns, antlers, claws and teeth of animals. </p>
<p>The tribe’s dominant symbols were powerful icons representing their belief systems. It has been suggested by philosopher James Hillman that our most potent symbols do not just emanate from the soul, but are actually what the soul is made of. &#8220;In the beginning was the word?&#8221; Perhaps not. We are beginning to hear the argument that, even before ‘the word’, was the symbol and the myth. But let us save our metaphysical musings for something more tangible but no less astonishing &#8212; the tattoo as talisman or savior.</p>
<p> A recurring theme in religious or spiritual tattoos concerns the afterlife. The great mystery of life and existence has fuelled myth, magic and special rites in almost every culture around the world. Amazingly, from the MAORI in New Zealand, to the SIOUX in North Dakota, to the IBAN tribes up the Skrang River in Borneo, the tattoo is nothing less than a passport to the world beyond. You simply could not leave home without it, not if you wanted admittance or any sort of status ‘on the other shore’. The right tattoo could ensure favor with deities, without which the dying person would not be recognized in the land of the spirits. In head-hunter country in Borneo, the tattoo also served as a torch to light the way across the river that ran through the Land of the Dead. Departed souls had to venture up this treacherous river to reach the long-houses of their most heroic ancestors. So arduous was this journey that only the most heavily tattooed tribesman could complete the journey.</p>
<p>Likewise, the final destination for the spirit of the SIOUX warrior was known as &#8216;Many Lodges&#8217;, and his tattoos played a crucial role in the journey. Success was only possible if he had been appropriately marked on the forehead, wrist and possibly on the tip of the chin. Legend has it that an old woman checked the tattoos of all the passing spirits. The un-tattooed would be dropped over a cliff, a most ignoble return to the land of the living, where he would wander aimlessly for eternity. </p>
<p>For many indigenous people around the world, a return to traditional tribal tattooing practices has been a powerful way to re-ignite a cultural renaissance and to reclaim a spiritual link to their past. This fact has no doubt played an important role in the widespread popularity of tribal tattooing today.&#8221;</p>
<p>(3) &#8220;Ronald Scutt, in his exhaustive book, ART, SEX &amp; SYMBOL, covers a lot about the history and culture of tattoos. He documents that most of the time tattoos are associated with spiritual, religious and mystical purposes; linking it to mystical significance, sun-worship, serpent worship, and the sun-god Baal.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sources:<br />
(1) <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2w2jya" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2w2jya</a><br />
(2) <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2w4d78" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2w4d78</a><br />
(3) <a href="http://tinyurl.com/27nfe5" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/27nfe5</a></p>
<p>(Notice that the injunction in LEVITICUS against body mutilation is firmly embedded in a context of prohibitions against other pagan practices.  So, it is a PAGAN practice.  Does the New Covenant mean we can now indulge in various forms of paganism?)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-94648</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 13:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-94648</guid>
		<description>How does this qualify as a defilement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does this qualify as a defilement?</p>
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		<title>By: heteroclite</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-94549</link>
		<dc:creator>heteroclite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 05:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-94549</guid>
		<description>At the risk of being a &quot;Johnny-Come-Lately,&quot; I nonetheless am puzzled, iMonk: why in neither of your essays on this topic is there any reference to what would seem to me a highly pertinent N.T. Scripture, &quot;Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.&quot; (2 Corinthians 7:1)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of being a &#8220;Johnny-Come-Lately,&#8221; I nonetheless am puzzled, iMonk: why in neither of your essays on this topic is there any reference to what would seem to me a highly pertinent N.T. Scripture, &#8220;Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.&#8221; (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=2+Corinthians+7%3A1" class="bibleref" title="ESV 2Corinthians 7:1">2 Corinthians 7:1</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: jmanning</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-63821</link>
		<dc:creator>jmanning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 02:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-63821</guid>
		<description>Some jobs require suits.  Others don&#039;t.  

If the jewelry was given as a token of affection I think it&#039;s fine.  If it is a self-adorned piece of vain self-promotion to show how much dough you are rolling in, nope.  
If it is a gold cross you bought beause Jesus means a lot to you, I think you could place those affections to a more charitable use....that person needs some more guidance in how Christians should handle money.  Each person is different and we have to let verses like 1 Ti 6:17-19 and 1 John 3:17-18 hit us all differently depending on our faith.

You can&#039;t draw many distinct lines, but I think you can set a definate direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some jobs require suits.  Others don&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>If the jewelry was given as a token of affection I think it&#8217;s fine.  If it is a self-adorned piece of vain self-promotion to show how much dough you are rolling in, nope.<br />
If it is a gold cross you bought beause Jesus means a lot to you, I think you could place those affections to a more charitable use&#8230;.that person needs some more guidance in how Christians should handle money.  Each person is different and we have to let verses like 1 Ti 6:17-19 and <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+John+3%3A17-18" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1John 3:17-18">1 John 3:17-18</a> hit us all differently depending on our faith.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t draw many distinct lines, but I think you can set a definate direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-63461</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-63461</guid>
		<description>Would these same comments apply to wearing jewelry or suits?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would these same comments apply to wearing jewelry or suits?</p>
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		<title>By: jmanning</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-63377</link>
		<dc:creator>jmanning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-63377</guid>
		<description>This is another instance where our culture is so bland and everyone is a follower.  Some people have tatooes and piercing because it was traditionally associated with paganism.  Some people have them because it is an individualistic statement.  And some people have them because they are lackies and original thinking makes them feel uncomfortable.  Can a Christian have a tatoo in the first instance?  No, no pagan Christians.  Can a Christian have a tatoo in the second instance?  Probably, but I would hope they&#039;d feel individualism and Christianity at some point diverge and maybe there are better ways to express yourself.  Can a Christian have one in the third sense?  Yes, because there are plenty of bland boring Christians.  Do any of these three instances make it &quot;alright&quot;?  I think under those three instances they are all bad ideas....but can I say for sure sinful?  In some amount and measure yes, but for different reasons...

I think the problem with the article linked above is that he assumes all people fit into some specific group.  Some get piercings for sexual reasons, others just because they are posers, some because perhaps its valid self-expression in their &quot;subculture&quot;.  I think the fact that Christians try to express themselves through these means show a shallow biblical worldview.  It is like the business man who bought the several thousand dollar gold bracelet that said &quot;wwjd&quot;.  Perhaps given that money to the poor?  It is wearing irony.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is another instance where our culture is so bland and everyone is a follower.  Some people have tatooes and piercing because it was traditionally associated with paganism.  Some people have them because it is an individualistic statement.  And some people have them because they are lackies and original thinking makes them feel uncomfortable.  Can a Christian have a tatoo in the first instance?  No, no pagan Christians.  Can a Christian have a tatoo in the second instance?  Probably, but I would hope they&#8217;d feel individualism and Christianity at some point diverge and maybe there are better ways to express yourself.  Can a Christian have one in the third sense?  Yes, because there are plenty of bland boring Christians.  Do any of these three instances make it &#8220;alright&#8221;?  I think under those three instances they are all bad ideas&#8230;.but can I say for sure sinful?  In some amount and measure yes, but for different reasons&#8230;</p>
<p>I think the problem with the article linked above is that he assumes all people fit into some specific group.  Some get piercings for sexual reasons, others just because they are posers, some because perhaps its valid self-expression in their &#8220;subculture&#8221;.  I think the fact that Christians try to express themselves through these means show a shallow biblical worldview.  It is like the business man who bought the several thousand dollar gold bracelet that said &#8220;wwjd&#8221;.  Perhaps given that money to the poor?  It is wearing irony.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenn7701</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war/comment-page-1#comment-7045</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenn7701</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 21:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-tongue-piercing-and-the-culture-war#comment-7045</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a Christian and have always wanted a tongue piercing (vs. a tatoo b/c at least I can take it out) and I am seriously considering it as I am going to be 29 and going thru a divorce I feel I need it, maybe to represent my dying to the flesh (as Jesus&#039;s was pierced) so am I? of course that is no comparison but if I can honor God thru example or analogy would that be alright? Great Blog at least your very Open minded on all sides of the argument, IF I do this it will be July 1st 2006 (My B-day) I always wanted to, but I don&#039;t want to dishonor God and like earrings it&#039;s just what I want, not needed no purpose, Thanks for sharing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a Christian and have always wanted a tongue piercing (vs. a tatoo b/c at least I can take it out) and I am seriously considering it as I am going to be 29 and going thru a divorce I feel I need it, maybe to represent my dying to the flesh (as Jesus&#8217;s was pierced) so am I? of course that is no comparison but if I can honor God thru example or analogy would that be alright? Great Blog at least your very Open minded on all sides of the argument, IF I do this it will be July 1st 2006 (My B-day) I always wanted to, but I don&#8217;t want to dishonor God and like earrings it&#8217;s just what I want, not needed no purpose, Thanks for sharing.</p>
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