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	<title>Comments on: Jesus Shaped Spirituality: What does Jesus Shaped Integrity Look Like?</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: dumb ox</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-240835</link>
		<dc:creator>dumb ox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 01:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-240835</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t mean to sound like an agitator; it was meant to be a humorous way to express the protestant spirit.

Unlike more authoritarian church traditions, evangelicalism is a subversive (rather than overt) collectivism - almost like &quot;Lord of the Flies&quot;.  You are told what to believe, how to think, what events to attend, what books to read, what music to listen to in order to be a &quot;good&quot; Christian.  But collectivism does not create courageous faith (Tillich), no matter in what form it appears.

One can claim to be protestant without embodying the protestant spirit.  Someone was talking about the need for the protestant spirit and constant renewal on EWTN radio today.  Churches don&#039;t teach their parishoners how to think, nor do they stand aside to let God confront its members with a personal encounter.  Instead, the church does it all:  Just watch this DVD; pray this prayer; attend this meeting; check this box; pull this voting lever.  We have let (or forced) the church to become the mediator of our relationship with God.  That is wrong.

We need to question.  We need to challenge old ideas (and the &quot;new&quot; ones).  We need to let people struggle with God.  That&#039;s what protestant spirit is all about.  It&#039;s a much harder road than just doing or thinking what one is told.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t mean to sound like an agitator; it was meant to be a humorous way to express the protestant spirit.</p>
<p>Unlike more authoritarian church traditions, evangelicalism is a subversive (rather than overt) collectivism &#8211; almost like &#8220;Lord of the Flies&#8221;.  You are told what to believe, how to think, what events to attend, what books to read, what music to listen to in order to be a &#8220;good&#8221; Christian.  But collectivism does not create courageous faith (Tillich), no matter in what form it appears.</p>
<p>One can claim to be protestant without embodying the protestant spirit.  Someone was talking about the need for the protestant spirit and constant renewal on EWTN radio today.  Churches don&#8217;t teach their parishoners how to think, nor do they stand aside to let God confront its members with a personal encounter.  Instead, the church does it all:  Just watch this DVD; pray this prayer; attend this meeting; check this box; pull this voting lever.  We have let (or forced) the church to become the mediator of our relationship with God.  That is wrong.</p>
<p>We need to question.  We need to challenge old ideas (and the &#8220;new&#8221; ones).  We need to let people struggle with God.  That&#8217;s what protestant spirit is all about.  It&#8217;s a much harder road than just doing or thinking what one is told.</p>
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		<title>By: Postmodern Puritan</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239802</link>
		<dc:creator>Postmodern Puritan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 05:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239802</guid>
		<description>Young people encouraged to have zeal without convictions is like letting go of an air-filled balloon. You don&#039;t know not where it will end up.

And lets face it, young people are just at the beginning of figuring out their convictions, or learning wrong ideals they&#039;ll have to turn from later in life as they learn the hard way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Young people encouraged to have zeal without convictions is like letting go of an air-filled balloon. You don&#8217;t know not where it will end up.</p>
<p>And lets face it, young people are just at the beginning of figuring out their convictions, or learning wrong ideals they&#8217;ll have to turn from later in life as they learn the hard way.</p>
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		<title>By: jimbob</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239603</link>
		<dc:creator>jimbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 17:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239603</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;dumb ox&lt;/b&gt; said:
&lt;i&gt;There definitely seems to be two varieties of sacred cows:
1. everything must change.
2. nothing can change.

Anyone for BBQ? &lt;/i&gt;

Reminds me of a college Communications course I took-- one of the texts was entitled &quot;The Rhetoric of Agitation and Control&quot;.  After getting beat up by authority figures in church most of my adult life, I find myself reflexively gravitating towards the &quot;agitation&quot; end of the spectrum.  As you said, though, the path of wisdom is to &quot;Test Yourself and Question Authority by The Truth of God as Seen In Jesus.â€  Not to automatically reject the assertions of the &quot;control&quot; group, but to give them a fair hearing in the light of scripture.  And not to automatically assume the validity of your own opinions/beliefs/values either, but to test them the same way.  I&#039;m still struggling with this.  I&#039;m starting to thing it&#039;s my life work, to struggle with this...

It does often seem a one-sided relationship, though-- sometimes one could wish that those in authority would engage in the same sort of exercise.  Sadly, in my experience, that seldom happens.  (It&#039;s not in their own self-interest, usually!).  I could go on and on but probably shouldn&#039;t, so I&#039;ll bail out over these uncertain waters, hoping that my seat cushion really does float...

[I find that my inflated ego makes a lousy life raft!]  :-D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>dumb ox</b> said:<br />
<i>There definitely seems to be two varieties of sacred cows:<br />
1. everything must change.<br />
2. nothing can change.</p>
<p>Anyone for BBQ? </i></p>
<p>Reminds me of a college Communications course I took&#8211; one of the texts was entitled &#8220;The Rhetoric of Agitation and Control&#8221;.  After getting beat up by authority figures in church most of my adult life, I find myself reflexively gravitating towards the &#8220;agitation&#8221; end of the spectrum.  As you said, though, the path of wisdom is to &#8220;Test Yourself and Question Authority by The Truth of God as Seen In Jesus.â€  Not to automatically reject the assertions of the &#8220;control&#8221; group, but to give them a fair hearing in the light of scripture.  And not to automatically assume the validity of your own opinions/beliefs/values either, but to test them the same way.  I&#8217;m still struggling with this.  I&#8217;m starting to thing it&#8217;s my life work, to struggle with this&#8230;</p>
<p>It does often seem a one-sided relationship, though&#8211; sometimes one could wish that those in authority would engage in the same sort of exercise.  Sadly, in my experience, that seldom happens.  (It&#8217;s not in their own self-interest, usually!).  I could go on and on but probably shouldn&#8217;t, so I&#8217;ll bail out over these uncertain waters, hoping that my seat cushion really does float&#8230;</p>
<p>[I find that my inflated ego makes a lousy life raft!]  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: dumb ox</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239395</link>
		<dc:creator>dumb ox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 00:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239395</guid>
		<description>There definitely seems to be two varieties of sacred cows:
1. everything must change.
2. nothing can change.

Anyone for BBQ?

The camps which hold to either of these polarizing views need to hear the prophetic voice of gospel.  That parable of the mustard seed keeps coming back to me.  Just because the seed becomes a tree, which continues to grow and expand, doesn&#039;t mean that it will ever cease being a mustard tree.  We can&#039;t keep the gospel-seed safe from harm by leaving it in the package.  It must grow and fill the earth.  

I think iMonk and  others have said it on several occassions:  grace is dangerous stuff.  No one is more afraid of it than Christians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There definitely seems to be two varieties of sacred cows:<br />
1. everything must change.<br />
2. nothing can change.</p>
<p>Anyone for BBQ?</p>
<p>The camps which hold to either of these polarizing views need to hear the prophetic voice of gospel.  That parable of the mustard seed keeps coming back to me.  Just because the seed becomes a tree, which continues to grow and expand, doesn&#8217;t mean that it will ever cease being a mustard tree.  We can&#8217;t keep the gospel-seed safe from harm by leaving it in the package.  It must grow and fill the earth.  </p>
<p>I think iMonk and  others have said it on several occassions:  grace is dangerous stuff.  No one is more afraid of it than Christians.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239274</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 17:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239274</guid>
		<description>I agree Michael that we should question authority, and especially the authority that we usually give to our own experiences and abilities to reason; most Christians I&#039;ve met have a completely skewed view of their own capacity for self-deception, thinking that their own heart is utterly deceptive (and so bashing people who use reason in any meaningful way in their apologetics or approach to Scripture) but trusting without question the &quot;voice of God&quot; that tends to be in their heads.  

But in my experience, the people (including myself) who embrace an attitude of distrust in all authority tend to end up questioning EVERYTHING that doesn&#039;t sit right with them right off the bat.  So my question is, how do you strike the balance between having a hermeneutic of suspicion but also a willingness to trust and follow God AND His teachers and preachers here?

That might be more of a question that&#039;s best answered in the course of a conversation, but whatever thoughts you might have would be helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Michael that we should question authority, and especially the authority that we usually give to our own experiences and abilities to reason; most Christians I&#8217;ve met have a completely skewed view of their own capacity for self-deception, thinking that their own heart is utterly deceptive (and so bashing people who use reason in any meaningful way in their apologetics or approach to Scripture) but trusting without question the &#8220;voice of God&#8221; that tends to be in their heads.  </p>
<p>But in my experience, the people (including myself) who embrace an attitude of distrust in all authority tend to end up questioning EVERYTHING that doesn&#8217;t sit right with them right off the bat.  So my question is, how do you strike the balance between having a hermeneutic of suspicion but also a willingness to trust and follow God AND His teachers and preachers here?</p>
<p>That might be more of a question that&#8217;s best answered in the course of a conversation, but whatever thoughts you might have would be helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Haley Ballast</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239270</link>
		<dc:creator>Haley Ballast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 17:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239270</guid>
		<description>Great point Michael.  I hadn&#039;t ever thought of the potential harm in urging young people to &quot;hold on to their beliefs&quot; without qualification, as if that is all that matters.  It&#039;s almost like telling them &quot;I&#039;m sure whatever you&#039;ve learned so far is enough, so for goodness sake stick to that and don&#039;t ask questions.&quot;    Yikes.  

I plan on passing this post on to those I know in youth ministry!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great point Michael.  I hadn&#8217;t ever thought of the potential harm in urging young people to &#8220;hold on to their beliefs&#8221; without qualification, as if that is all that matters.  It&#8217;s almost like telling them &#8220;I&#8217;m sure whatever you&#8217;ve learned so far is enough, so for goodness sake stick to that and don&#8217;t ask questions.&#8221;    Yikes.  </p>
<p>I plan on passing this post on to those I know in youth ministry!</p>
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		<title>By: Dirk Albring</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239269</link>
		<dc:creator>Dirk Albring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 17:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239269</guid>
		<description>Your blog makes me think of the Bereans...and it makes me think of the Word of God.  We can&#039;t just base what we &quot;think&quot; Jesus would do or say in situations and base our own beliefs on that.  We have to base them on what we &quot;know&quot; He says about every situation as written in His Word.  Can you imagine how many different takes there would be if everyone relied on what they thought about a given situation rather than what we know about Jesus?  I believe your latest blog described to some extent Jesus&#039; sanctifying work in us and hence the way our lives are lived out.  As we&#039;re sanctified I think some things become no-brainers, but there is still much that needs to be weighed against what Jesus actually said and taught.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your blog makes me think of the Bereans&#8230;and it makes me think of the Word of God.  We can&#8217;t just base what we &#8220;think&#8221; Jesus would do or say in situations and base our own beliefs on that.  We have to base them on what we &#8220;know&#8221; He says about every situation as written in His Word.  Can you imagine how many different takes there would be if everyone relied on what they thought about a given situation rather than what we know about Jesus?  I believe your latest blog described to some extent Jesus&#8217; sanctifying work in us and hence the way our lives are lived out.  As we&#8217;re sanctified I think some things become no-brainers, but there is still much that needs to be weighed against what Jesus actually said and taught.</p>
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		<title>By: rootsman</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239264</link>
		<dc:creator>rootsman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 16:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239264</guid>
		<description>Christians should be saying â€œIntegrity: Test Yourself and Question Authority by The Truth of God as Seen In Jesus.â€

Very true, Michael - very true.

And I think it is consistent with this definition of integrity (from Wikipedia):

&quot;One can describe a person as having integrity to the extent that everything that that person does derives from the same core set of values. While those values may change, their consistency with each other and with the person&#039;s actions determine the person&#039;s degree of integrity.&quot;

So, the person may change and still have integrity.  On the contrary, he will loose his integrity if he holds on to actions which are inconsistent with his values (that may have changed).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christians should be saying â€œIntegrity: Test Yourself and Question Authority by The Truth of God as Seen In Jesus.â€</p>
<p>Very true, Michael &#8211; very true.</p>
<p>And I think it is consistent with this definition of integrity (from Wikipedia):</p>
<p>&#8220;One can describe a person as having integrity to the extent that everything that that person does derives from the same core set of values. While those values may change, their consistency with each other and with the person&#8217;s actions determine the person&#8217;s degree of integrity.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, the person may change and still have integrity.  On the contrary, he will loose his integrity if he holds on to actions which are inconsistent with his values (that may have changed).</p>
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		<title>By: K.W. Leslie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239261</link>
		<dc:creator>K.W. Leslie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 15:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239261</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t forget &lt;b&gt;#3: &quot;Close your mind in case something new and belief-shaking gets in there.&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

It has the side effect of not letting &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; new get in there... including things that have nothing to do with one&#039;s beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t forget <b>#3: &#8220;Close your mind in case something new and belief-shaking gets in there.&#8221;</b></p>
<p>It has the side effect of not letting <i>anything</i> new get in there&#8230; including things that have nothing to do with one&#8217;s beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: A. R. Pritchett</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/jesus-shaped-spirituality-what-does-jesus-shaped-integrity-look-like/comment-page-1#comment-239256</link>
		<dc:creator>A. R. Pritchett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 15:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2064#comment-239256</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s amazing to me how much a Jesus Shaped Spirituality wrecks so much that I assumed as a conservative Southern evangelical while affirming things that I wanted to get away from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s amazing to me how much a Jesus Shaped Spirituality wrecks so much that I assumed as a conservative Southern evangelical while affirming things that I wanted to get away from.</p>
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