Comments on: In the King’s Garden (Gen 2), part two http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:47:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mike Bull http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542819 Mike Bull Tue, 06 Jul 2010 00:45:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542819 Mike There's a lot that's not implicitly stated here, but the structure of events in the Garden is replayed in the Land (Cain and Abel: Cain refuses covering) and in the World (only Noah's family is covered). The same structure is found in Israel's annual feasts, and even in the history of the first century church. The Bible begins with Adam, Eve and the serpent and ends with a false prophet, a harlot and a beast. The sins of individuals become institutionalised. What's implicit in Genesis 3 becomes explicit throughout biblical history. I'm happy to send you a copy of my book, which lays all this out, if you are interested. You can contact me through my blog: www [dot] bullartistry [dot] com [dot] au/wp Blessings, Mike Mike

There’s a lot that’s not implicitly stated here, but the structure of events in the Garden is replayed in the Land (Cain and Abel: Cain refuses covering) and in the World (only Noah’s family is covered).

The same structure is found in Israel’s annual feasts, and even in the history of the first century church. The Bible begins with Adam, Eve and the serpent and ends with a false prophet, a harlot and a beast. The sins of individuals become institutionalised. What’s implicit in Genesis 3 becomes explicit throughout biblical history.

I’m happy to send you a copy of my book, which lays all this out, if you are interested.
You can contact me through my blog: www [dot] bullartistry [dot] com [dot] au/wp

Blessings,
Mike

]]> By: Chaplain Mike http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542579 Chaplain Mike Sun, 04 Jul 2010 01:11:07 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542579 Yes, Jesus will overcome all forms of death. Otherwise, the physical resurrection means nothing. Yes, Jesus will overcome all forms of death. Otherwise, the physical resurrection means nothing.

]]> By: brilliantvapor http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542574 brilliantvapor Sun, 04 Jul 2010 00:42:59 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542574 I should have been more clear in what I meant here. I'm referring to Jesus' ultimate defeat of death "in the end" (we'd have to get into eschatology to decide what I mean by that, so let's not). Is this not referring to physical death? Or is my idea of Jesus' defeat of death not scriptural? fyi and btw, I'm not trying to argue down the idea of death before the fall. I think it might explain some things. I'm just trying to sort through some of the ramifications in my head. I should have been more clear in what I meant here. I’m referring to Jesus’ ultimate defeat of death “in the end” (we’d have to get into eschatology to decide what I mean by that, so let’s not). Is this not referring to physical death? Or is my idea of Jesus’ defeat of death not scriptural?
fyi and btw, I’m not trying to argue down the idea of death before the fall. I think it might explain some things. I’m just trying to sort through some of the ramifications in my head.

]]> By: Chaplain Mike http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542560 Chaplain Mike Sat, 03 Jul 2010 22:26:12 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542560 I don't see it as jumping through hoops. I'm trying to deal with the text as it stands. And I'm also trying to be realistic about the world the Bible portrays. God took Job and his friends to task for accepting simplistic answers and for not appropriately standing in awe before a transcendent God and before a creation that defies simple explanation. I don’t see it as jumping through hoops. I’m trying to deal with the text as it stands. And I’m also trying to be realistic about the world the Bible portrays. God took Job and his friends to task for accepting simplistic answers and for not appropriately standing in awe before a transcendent God and before a creation that defies simple explanation.

]]> By: nedbrek http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542555 nedbrek Sat, 03 Jul 2010 21:22:25 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542555 Sure, anything might have happened. But isn't it simpler to assume nothing happened (or at least, very little)? Why jump through hoops and invent unnamed evils and mysteries? Sure, anything might have happened. But isn’t it simpler to assume nothing happened (or at least, very little)? Why jump through hoops and invent unnamed evils and mysteries?

]]> By: Chaplain Mike http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542552 Chaplain Mike Sat, 03 Jul 2010 20:30:16 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542552 nedbrek: You are missing a key exegetical point in Genesis—<strong>Genesis 1:2 starts with the world already in existence.</strong> Genesis 1 doesn't tell how how God created the earth itself. It tells us how God ordered the earth (or land) to make it "good" for his creatures. How long was it in existence before then? What had transpired in the world and in the spiritual realm before Genesis 1:2? These matters are beyond what has been revealed to us. In my view, that includes the absolute origins of evil. nedbrek: You are missing a key exegetical point in Genesis—Genesis 1:2 starts with the world already in existence. Genesis 1 doesn’t tell how how God created the earth itself. It tells us how God ordered the earth (or land) to make it “good” for his creatures. How long was it in existence before then? What had transpired in the world and in the spiritual realm before Genesis 1:2? These matters are beyond what has been revealed to us. In my view, that includes the absolute origins of evil.

]]> By: ProdigalSarah http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542551 ProdigalSarah Sat, 03 Jul 2010 20:25:28 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542551 With iMonk’s cancer I suspect I asked God “Why?” and prayed “But we need him here,” as often as any. Last week a cousin, a year younger than me with an undiagnosed heart condition, died. As great as suffering can be, as much as we grieve the loss of those we love, surely you can see that pain is also natural and necessary for survival? The most intense physical pain I have experienced was when I spent thirty hours in labor to give birth to a ten pound baby. But as terrible as that pain, I think we can all agree that it is natural and necessary. Believe me, the moment I held that newborn in my arms the suffering seemed a very small sacrifice. While studying family history I found a cemetery where a number of my ancestors are buried. I realized in horror that about half the graves were for infants. An older relative told me that there were so many infant deaths at that time because of yellow fever. Think of this, before it was discovered that mosquitoes carried malaria and yellow fever, people may have thought it was the wrath of God, or evil spirits or just the result of living in a fallen world. With iMonk’s cancer I suspect I asked God “Why?” and prayed “But we need him here,” as often as any. Last week a cousin, a year younger than me with an undiagnosed heart condition, died. As great as suffering can be, as much as we grieve the loss of those we love, surely you can see that pain is also natural and necessary for survival?

The most intense physical pain I have experienced was when I spent thirty hours in labor to give birth to a ten pound baby. But as terrible as that pain, I think we can all agree that it is natural and necessary. Believe me, the moment I held that newborn in my arms the suffering seemed a very small sacrifice.

While studying family history I found a cemetery where a number of my ancestors are buried. I realized in horror that about half the graves were for infants. An older relative told me that there were so many infant deaths at that time because of yellow fever. Think of this, before it was discovered that mosquitoes carried malaria and yellow fever, people may have thought it was the wrath of God, or evil spirits or just the result of living in a fallen world.

]]> By: nedbrek http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542549 nedbrek Sat, 03 Jul 2010 20:01:36 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542549 Actually, I assume you have the same definition of evil as me - perhaps not. To me, "evil" means the opposite of good, where God is good. Evil is the opposite of God, or the lack of God (or God's goodness). Man is evil because he is opposed to God (and God's will). The fallen angels are evil for the same reason. Before creation, there cannot be evil (there is only God). After, there can only be evil due to the creation itself rebelling against God (not some mystical force apart from creation). Actually, I assume you have the same definition of evil as me – perhaps not.

To me, “evil” means the opposite of good, where God is good. Evil is the opposite of God, or the lack of God (or God’s goodness).

Man is evil because he is opposed to God (and God’s will). The fallen angels are evil for the same reason.

Before creation, there cannot be evil (there is only God).

After, there can only be evil due to the creation itself rebelling against God (not some mystical force apart from creation).

]]> By: Chaplain Mike http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542546 Chaplain Mike Sat, 03 Jul 2010 19:30:33 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542546 nedbrek, it is called "surd" because the answer is, we don't know. We can't explain its origin. It is not revealed to us. It is clearly not dualism, for it is under God's providential control. I believe the account of the new creation in Revelation gives the final picture when it says, "there will be no more sea" there. Even the forces present in creation that were opposed to God before human sin will be overcome in the end. nedbrek, it is called “surd” because the answer is, we don’t know. We can’t explain its origin. It is not revealed to us. It is clearly not dualism, for it is under God’s providential control. I believe the account of the new creation in Revelation gives the final picture when it says, “there will be no more sea” there. Even the forces present in creation that were opposed to God before human sin will be overcome in the end.

]]> By: nedbrek http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/in-the-kings-garden-gen-2-part-two/comment-page-1#comment-542535 nedbrek Sat, 03 Jul 2010 17:37:42 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=9215#comment-542535 This seems almost beyond the pale to me. Did God create this evil, or is it eternally co-existent with Him? Is this not dualism? Is God sovereign over evil or not? Is God powerful enough to conquer evil or not? The serpent in garden was Satan. He was a sinner from the beginning (John 8:44). God created him and allowed him to fall. His fall had no effect on creation, because angels have no dominion over creation. Man has (or at least had) dominion over creation. This seems almost beyond the pale to me.

Did God create this evil, or is it eternally co-existent with Him? Is this not dualism? Is God sovereign over evil or not? Is God powerful enough to conquer evil or not?

The serpent in garden was Satan. He was a sinner from the beginning (John 8:44). God created him and allowed him to fall. His fall had no effect on creation, because angels have no dominion over creation. Man has (or at least had) dominion over creation.

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