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	<title>Comments on: iMonk 101: To Be or Not To Be or Why I&#8217;m Not A Young Earth Creationist</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Rowitt</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-517466</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Rowitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-517466</guid>
		<description>These are very interesting posts.  I think we often see science and religion as mutually exclusive. Many of the founding fathers of science were men (and women) of faith. Why do we find ourselves more apt to want to adjust our religious beliefs to accommodate science when the scientific body of knowledge is very often in flux due to new discoveries or additional data on previous discoveries because new discoveries often change what we believe about the world we live in. 
I see the tension between science and theology as a good thing. I also think that theology can transcend science but not visa versa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are very interesting posts.  I think we often see science and religion as mutually exclusive. Many of the founding fathers of science were men (and women) of faith. Why do we find ourselves more apt to want to adjust our religious beliefs to accommodate science when the scientific body of knowledge is very often in flux due to new discoveries or additional data on previous discoveries because new discoveries often change what we believe about the world we live in.<br />
I see the tension between science and theology as a good thing. I also think that theology can transcend science but not visa versa.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-1#comment-516736</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-516736</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Iâ€™ve been told that the Earth used to point straight up (up in space means which direction again?), and that a globe of ice surrounded the world. Then God tilted us 23 degrees (I think thatâ€™s the figure), which melted the ice, caused the flood, and Bobâ€™s your uncle.&lt;/i&gt;

And changed the year from 360 days to 365 and a fraction, and the month from 30 days to 28 and a fraction, and changed the water cycle from miraculous fog and dew rising from the oceans into rain and snow, and cut the human lifespan from 600+ years to 70...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Iâ€™ve been told that the Earth used to point straight up (up in space means which direction again?), and that a globe of ice surrounded the world. Then God tilted us 23 degrees (I think thatâ€™s the figure), which melted the ice, caused the flood, and Bobâ€™s your uncle.</i></p>
<p>And changed the year from 360 days to 365 and a fraction, and the month from 30 days to 28 and a fraction, and changed the water cycle from miraculous fog and dew rising from the oceans into rain and snow, and cut the human lifespan from 600+ years to 70&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Calvin Lawson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-516262</link>
		<dc:creator>Calvin Lawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 03:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-516262</guid>
		<description>Very true; it&#039;s difficult to get an education and continue to believe in a young earth.  It happened to me; I was raised YEC, and went to find as much evidence to support it as possible.  Instead, I realized 1) the evidence actually went the other way, and 2) enforcing presupposition by research is intellectually dishonest.

The second point was the killer, especially when combined with something the author above refers to: (FTA)

 &quot;Scripture is true by virtue of God speaking it.&quot; 

IE: &quot;The Bible defines God, and God defines the Bible&quot;.  I&#039;m pretty sure that&#039;s tautological, but it is the fundamental foundation of much modern Christian faith.

In the end, it&#039;s not possible to know something without at least one human experiencing it. Everything we know comes through own or someone else&#039;s experience.   It doesn&#039;t matter if it&#039;s a subjective religious revelation or an objective breakthrough in science; both are human experiences.

And in both cases, the only affirmation we have to our experiences is from the communities around us; faith communities in one sense and scientific communities in the other.

Once I realized that, religion lost its spell on me.  I started to question my faith, and now I&#039;m an atheist.  In the end, a tautological definition of god was not sufficient...now I&#039;m not sure if God can be defined in ANY way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true; it&#8217;s difficult to get an education and continue to believe in a young earth.  It happened to me; I was raised YEC, and went to find as much evidence to support it as possible.  Instead, I realized 1) the evidence actually went the other way, and 2) enforcing presupposition by research is intellectually dishonest.</p>
<p>The second point was the killer, especially when combined with something the author above refers to: (FTA)</p>
<p> &#8220;Scripture is true by virtue of God speaking it.&#8221; </p>
<p>IE: &#8220;The Bible defines God, and God defines the Bible&#8221;.  I&#8217;m pretty sure that&#8217;s tautological, but it is the fundamental foundation of much modern Christian faith.</p>
<p>In the end, it&#8217;s not possible to know something without at least one human experiencing it. Everything we know comes through own or someone else&#8217;s experience.   It doesn&#8217;t matter if it&#8217;s a subjective religious revelation or an objective breakthrough in science; both are human experiences.</p>
<p>And in both cases, the only affirmation we have to our experiences is from the communities around us; faith communities in one sense and scientific communities in the other.</p>
<p>Once I realized that, religion lost its spell on me.  I started to question my faith, and now I&#8217;m an atheist.  In the end, a tautological definition of god was not sufficient&#8230;now I&#8217;m not sure if God can be defined in ANY way.</p>
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		<title>By: Young Earth Creationism and Literary Form &#171; Sinaiticus</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-515944</link>
		<dc:creator>Young Earth Creationism and Literary Form &#171; Sinaiticus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-515944</guid>
		<description>[...] the whole post here.Â  In case you&#8217;ve never pondered the intersection of science and the Bible, this is a helpful [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the whole post here.Â  In case you&#8217;ve never pondered the intersection of science and the Bible, this is a helpful [...]</p>
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		<title>By: I&#8217;m Coming Out (Intro to an Evolving Creation) &#124; Reform &#38; Revive</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-515907</link>
		<dc:creator>I&#8217;m Coming Out (Intro to an Evolving Creation) &#124; Reform &#38; Revive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-515907</guid>
		<description>[...] on this topic; read this essay by Michale Spencer, a.k.a. &#8220;the Internet Monk&#8221;, on why he&#8217;s not a Young Earth Creationist; and then listen to/watch the media below that might interest you.Â  After you&#8217;ve done all [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on this topic; read this essay by Michale Spencer, a.k.a. &#8220;the Internet Monk&#8221;, on why he&#8217;s not a Young Earth Creationist; and then listen to/watch the media below that might interest you.Â  After you&#8217;ve done all [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sensus Divinitatis News</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-515133</link>
		<dc:creator>Sensus Divinitatis News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-515133</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;iMonk 101: To Be or Not To Be or Why IÂ’m Not A Young Earth Creationist...&lt;/strong&gt;

This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>iMonk 101: To Be or Not To Be or Why IÂ’m Not A Young Earth Creationist&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil R</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-515007</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-515007</guid>
		<description>Oh yes, your point:
     It is easier to apply a label than it is to debate a point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yes, your point:<br />
     It is easier to apply a label than it is to debate a point.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-514984</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-514984</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;As Nick Matzke eloquently articulates The definition of â€œintelligent designâ€ *originated* by deleting â€œcreationistâ€ and its cognates, and inserting â€œintelligent designâ€, â€œdesign proponentsâ€, etc., from the book Of Pandas and People. The rest of the definition (and the text of the book it was in!!) remained exactly the same. It happened after the 1987 Edwards v. Aguillard decision.&lt;/i&gt;

So it REALLY WAS a &quot;Global Replace String &#039;Young Earth Creationism&#039; with String &#039;Intelligent Design&#039;&quot;  (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>As Nick Matzke eloquently articulates The definition of â€œintelligent designâ€ *originated* by deleting â€œcreationistâ€ and its cognates, and inserting â€œintelligent designâ€, â€œdesign proponentsâ€, etc., from the book Of Pandas and People. The rest of the definition (and the text of the book it was in!!) remained exactly the same. It happened after the 1987 Edwards v. Aguillard decision.</i></p>
<p>So it REALLY WAS a &#8220;Global Replace String &#8216;Young Earth Creationism&#8217; with String &#8216;Intelligent Design&#8217;&#8221;  (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean)&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Bartlett</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-514924</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Bartlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 03:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-514924</guid>
		<description>This is actually a reply to both tildeb and Headless Unicorn Guy, but imonk won&#039;t do comments past 3 deep.

I believe Sanford&#039;s book was originally self-published, and later picked up by a Creation-based publisher.  I don&#039;t have any personal grudges against self-published books.  I self-published my own book on computer science (Programming from the Ground Up) for largely the same reason - I was unable to find a publisher who wanted to publish it.  However, self-publishing did not stop Princeton University from using it for several years.  The key is the quality of the book, not on what governing committee says whether or not it is suitable for publication.

Human nature is just what it is - it isn&#039;t a conspiracy theory.  The same human nature that kept Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar&#039;s ideas out of astrophysics for several decades (Eddington thought it was uncool, and he had enough clout to prevent other people who were sympathetic to his ideas to keep them out).  For similar reasons as Sanford, Chandrasekhar spent most of his publishing efforts towards books rather than peer-review journals.  It is the highest vanity that people think that scientists are a special class of people who are not prone to the same types of groupthink present in every other field.  

And Chandrasekhar and Sanford aren&#039;t the only two who push their work primarily through books.  Blanden and Steele published their theories of somatic selection and germline feedback in the book Lamarck&#039;s Signature in 1999.  Only in the last few years has the scientific environment changed enough to allow their views in peer-reviewed journals, and even then only a few papers.

Lynn Margulis has often had her funding cut off for much the same reasons.

To say that in order for an idea to be scientific that it must pass through a select group of people or journals is simply silly, and the history of science shows us that over and over again good ideas get shot down in science (both journals and otherwise) simply because they are unpopular, and not because they are wrong.

If I remember correctly from Ruse&#039;s &quot;evolution wars&quot;, the journal Evolution was established because certain scientists did not feel their papers were being given a proper hearing, and therefore made their own journal to publish them.  There is nothing wrong with that, but apparently if someone you disagree with does that, it&#039;s foul play.

There is no magic to peer review.  The idea should stand or fall as an idea itself, not because some mystical priesthood deemed it worthy of their standards.  Having a fixed set of avenues of publication is precisely the _cause_ of dogma, not its solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is actually a reply to both tildeb and Headless Unicorn Guy, but imonk won&#8217;t do comments past 3 deep.</p>
<p>I believe Sanford&#8217;s book was originally self-published, and later picked up by a Creation-based publisher.  I don&#8217;t have any personal grudges against self-published books.  I self-published my own book on computer science (Programming from the Ground Up) for largely the same reason &#8211; I was unable to find a publisher who wanted to publish it.  However, self-publishing did not stop Princeton University from using it for several years.  The key is the quality of the book, not on what governing committee says whether or not it is suitable for publication.</p>
<p>Human nature is just what it is &#8211; it isn&#8217;t a conspiracy theory.  The same human nature that kept Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar&#8217;s ideas out of astrophysics for several decades (Eddington thought it was uncool, and he had enough clout to prevent other people who were sympathetic to his ideas to keep them out).  For similar reasons as Sanford, Chandrasekhar spent most of his publishing efforts towards books rather than peer-review journals.  It is the highest vanity that people think that scientists are a special class of people who are not prone to the same types of groupthink present in every other field.  </p>
<p>And Chandrasekhar and Sanford aren&#8217;t the only two who push their work primarily through books.  Blanden and Steele published their theories of somatic selection and germline feedback in the book Lamarck&#8217;s Signature in 1999.  Only in the last few years has the scientific environment changed enough to allow their views in peer-reviewed journals, and even then only a few papers.</p>
<p>Lynn Margulis has often had her funding cut off for much the same reasons.</p>
<p>To say that in order for an idea to be scientific that it must pass through a select group of people or journals is simply silly, and the history of science shows us that over and over again good ideas get shot down in science (both journals and otherwise) simply because they are unpopular, and not because they are wrong.</p>
<p>If I remember correctly from Ruse&#8217;s &#8220;evolution wars&#8221;, the journal Evolution was established because certain scientists did not feel their papers were being given a proper hearing, and therefore made their own journal to publish them.  There is nothing wrong with that, but apparently if someone you disagree with does that, it&#8217;s foul play.</p>
<p>There is no magic to peer review.  The idea should stand or fall as an idea itself, not because some mystical priesthood deemed it worthy of their standards.  Having a fixed set of avenues of publication is precisely the _cause_ of dogma, not its solution.</p>
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		<title>By: tildeb</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-to-be-or-not-to-be-or-why-im-not-a-young-earth-creationist/comment-page-2#comment-514905</link>
		<dc:creator>tildeb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4684#comment-514905</guid>
		<description>I would love to have a much more detailed conversation with you about your thesis than this site will allow because it sounds very much like a &quot;God did it&quot;  explanation used for a lack of knowledge since time immemorial. I suspect you mean much more than that and I would like to find out what. But in the meantime, I&#039;ll make my point as quickly as quickly as I can.

Until the 15th century, Christian science was Aristotelian physics and Platomic ideology (a restructured dualism by its modern name, thanks to Descartes), but somewhat altered screaming and kicking at least as much by the natural physics that worked of a few large brained mammals like Copernicus and Galileo and Newton as by the natural philosophies of Descartes and Leibniz that empowered natural theology. To recast these philosophies as Intelligent Design has some merit but... to be more honest, let&#039;s call ID what it was meant to be by those who created it: the proponents of those who represent the Discovery Institute and put its agenda to work. So let&#039;s not mask ID as something it is really isn&#039;t - natural theology - although I will admit that it could be categorized as such. 

Intelligent Design is very much a20th century creature that attempts and fails as a Trojan Horse to get creationism into the science curriculum. The evidence is two simple words: cdesign proponentsists. As Nick Matzke eloquently articulates &lt;i&gt;The definition of â€œintelligent designâ€ *originated* by deleting â€œcreationistâ€ and its cognates, and inserting â€œintelligent designâ€, â€œdesign proponentsâ€, etc., from the book Of Pandas and People. The rest of the definition (and the text of the book it was in!!) remained exactly the same. It happened after the 1987 Edwards v. Aguillard decision.&lt;/i&gt;

You may choose to think of ID as a new label on an old idea, but unless you can convince those who use the term in its modern form to redefine the antiquated idea of natural theology, then let&#039;s stick to using language we can both understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would love to have a much more detailed conversation with you about your thesis than this site will allow because it sounds very much like a &#8220;God did it&#8221;  explanation used for a lack of knowledge since time immemorial. I suspect you mean much more than that and I would like to find out what. But in the meantime, I&#8217;ll make my point as quickly as quickly as I can.</p>
<p>Until the 15th century, Christian science was Aristotelian physics and Platomic ideology (a restructured dualism by its modern name, thanks to Descartes), but somewhat altered screaming and kicking at least as much by the natural physics that worked of a few large brained mammals like Copernicus and Galileo and Newton as by the natural philosophies of Descartes and Leibniz that empowered natural theology. To recast these philosophies as Intelligent Design has some merit but&#8230; to be more honest, let&#8217;s call ID what it was meant to be by those who created it: the proponents of those who represent the Discovery Institute and put its agenda to work. So let&#8217;s not mask ID as something it is really isn&#8217;t &#8211; natural theology &#8211; although I will admit that it could be categorized as such. </p>
<p>Intelligent Design is very much a20th century creature that attempts and fails as a Trojan Horse to get creationism into the science curriculum. The evidence is two simple words: cdesign proponentsists. As Nick Matzke eloquently articulates <i>The definition of â€œintelligent designâ€ *originated* by deleting â€œcreationistâ€ and its cognates, and inserting â€œintelligent designâ€, â€œdesign proponentsâ€, etc., from the book Of Pandas and People. The rest of the definition (and the text of the book it was in!!) remained exactly the same. It happened after the 1987 Edwards v. Aguillard decision.</i></p>
<p>You may choose to think of ID as a new label on an old idea, but unless you can convince those who use the term in its modern form to redefine the antiquated idea of natural theology, then let&#8217;s stick to using language we can both understand.</p>
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